939 Motherboards kind of scarce due to upcoming PCI express replacing AGP?

[tophman]

Does it seem like the Socket 939 board are kind of limited currently? Is that due to chip costs keeping the demand down or the new PCI express technology coming out any time? Are the MB makers waiting to see if the consumers bite on the whole PCI express idea?
I really want to buy a 939 once they come down a little in price but they are so expensive. I really think AMD priced them that high so nobody would buy them untill AMD has upped the production of them.
I know the 754's are a little more reasonbly priced but I don't want to buy a socket slotted for death as soon as I get it. LOL

 

[Brickster]

Tophman, I am with you. People keep buying the 754 sockets and asking "why would you even want to get a 939? So expensive!!!"

While expensive, you hit the nail on the head...upgradeability.

In 3 years, I want to be able to slap on maybe an FX-5x to my 939 and be able to keep using my motherboard.

Granted, that would have to follow, that in 3 years, there were still AGP flavored Video Cards. Otherwise, I would have to upgrade the mobo, too. Am I right? And, probably with that, would go another socket...who knows really?

It is a tough call right now picking a socket with this whole PCI-Express thing coming on. That is the big "?"

If AGP is truly replaced in 1 year...would it make sense to buy an AGP-only board now? Would 939 transition to PCI-Express?

I think this post warrants MUCH discussion.

 

[alent1234]

Originally posted by: Brickster
Tophman, I am with you. People keep buying the 754 sockets and asking "why would you even want to get a 939? So expensive!!!"

While expensive, you hit the nail on the head...upgradeability.

In 3 years, I want to be able to slap on maybe an FX-5x to my 939 and be able to keep using my motherboard.

Granted, that would have to follow, that in 3 years, there were still AGP flavored Video Cards. Otherwise, I would have to upgrade the mobo, too. Am I right? And, probably with that, would go another socket...who knows really?

It is a tough call right now picking a socket with this whole PCI-Express thing coming on. That is the big "?"

If AGP is truly replaced in 1 year...would it make sense to buy an AGP-only board now? Would 939 transition to PCI-Express?

I think this post warrants MUCH discussion.

3 years down the road there will be new cpu's, sockets and RAM. I'm looking into buying a socket 754 cpu, mobo and an AGP card in the next 60 days or so. Socket 939 systems don't offer the performance for the premium that they will command. And there will probably be bugs since the technology is new.

 

[caliber1]

As far as I know, the current lack of availibility is due to the relative lack of need for, and relative age of socket 939. Socket 754, bringing a much higher price per performance ratio (at the moment) fills the needs of the majority for AMD 64 processors. Socket 939 will only be purchased by a very small percentage of consumers; the extreme enthusiasts who not only are willing to pay the price premium of the socket 939 processors, but who also *arnt* waiting for the nForce 4 chipset that brings PCIe to socket 939. Thus, these boards are released slowly and carefully with a high price, as they will not be purchased as widely as their s754 predecessors, and if purchased, will be purchased with the already expensive s939 processors - the mobo's prices seem more based upon the assumption that someone who can afford a s939 this early can also afford a 150+ dollar motherboard to accompany it.

Futhermore, these boards currently dont integrate PCIe, and (this is just speculation) due to the buzz about it in terms of upgradability, they are being released rather carefully, and will continue to be released in this fashion as s939 prices drop to see if the consumer base that buys the top end boards is willing to undertake the price (even if reduced) of a top board while knowing that they will need to buy a new one when PCIe becomes the standard and AGP is phased out, which was estimated to be 1 year from now - though 1 year is the general lifespan of a computer before it is labelled obsolete in terms of technology as cpu's usually are updated in yearly cycles and video cards updated in 6 month cycles by their respective manufacturers.

 

[darXoul]

Guys, in 3 years you'll be probably buying socket 1120 mobos with corresponding A64 II processors, DDR3 RAM and PCI-E x32 cards Upgradeability is an illusion. I upgrade my system every 2-3 years and every single time I'm pretty much forced to change the whole basis, i.e. CPU, motherboard, RAM and video card. Therefore, s939's so-called upgradeability isn't even a valid argument in my eyes.

 

[AnnoyedGrunt]

I realize that upgrading just the CPU in three years is relatively unlikely, but it isn't necessarily an impossiblility.

Look @ SKT A for example. I'm running a Palomino core AXP 1800+ that I bought 2.5 years ago, and if I had a different MB I could potentially upgrade to something faster (although not the top of the line, since only the KT266A chipset was available when I got it). So, it looks like I could get an AXP 2400+ and gain some performance (except my specific MB doesn't work with that chip).

Aside from that technicality, I agree that the 939 is less popular than it potentially could be for a couple reasons:
1. For current performance, it doesn't offer anything over 754 and is more expensive.
2. For furture performance you are still stuck with an AGP video card and therefore may be more limited in future video card upgrades (not due to performance just that in three years it is unlikely that ATI or Nvidia will release their high end stuff on AGP platforms).
3. Because AMD is not offering the lower speed A64's on 939, the initial costs are much higher than a 754 config. The 939 might appeal to those who like to be on the cutting edge, but many of those might also want a PCIe vid card and are therefore waiting for the PCIe 939 MB's as mentioned above.

Anyhow, I personally would like to upgrade in december (so that I will have kept one computer for 3years with only a video card upgrade), and I am therefore hoping that there will be a plethora of 939 MB's with PCIe and hopefully Nvidia will add soundstorm back on to their chipsets.

-D'oh!

 

[Brickster]

I think that everyone has some tremendously valid points on why one would not want to choose 939 at the moment. That is, for those with the ability to wait for future technology. Thing is, you will always be waiting for something. darXoul makes a point by saying "upgradeability is an illusion". I think I agree with that to an extent, but of course, it's an illusion for some technologies more than others.

Money aside, that is 754, point and case. First, there are no new processors coming out for 754 above the A64 3700+. Only the Athlon XP will have future releases on this socket, and that means, in terms of CPU only, 939 provides a longer foreseeable upgrade path for processor speed.

And, c'mon, does anyone really believe that none of the VGA card makers will not be making a SINGLE AGP card in one year? Two years? Even three years? I find it hard to believe that out of all the AGP-only motherboards that will still be in consumer hands in three years, that not one Video card maker will serve that market for future upgrades.

Someone, please, show me proof that ATI and NVidia are going to stop full support of AGP in 2 years, and I will gladly concede that my suggestions are falsehood. I mean, if Nvidia can do HSI from AGP to PCI-Express on-chip, what makes us believe once they move to a fully native PCI-Express soultion, they won't be able to make an HSI version back to AGP for the rest of the world still running on those ancient 2-year-old boards?

For the 939 socket, yes, it is brand-spankin' new, but opposed to alent1234's
comments, it's really proven technology already. The chipsets, the bus, etc. These things are nothing new, take the MSI K8N Neo Platinum and the Neo2 Platinum for example -- same board, same chips (minus some cache), just different sockets. We are talking pins people, am I right?

Finally there is that money issue. Sure, 939 is more expensive. Based on that alone, 754 is the ultimate choice. You get great performance, and at sub-enthusiast prices, with the full understanding by folks like darXoul that you buy it now, and replace the entire bag in 3 years anyway. I would disagree with that perspective personally since I have had my P3 Dell Dimension 4100 for 4 years now and am only just talking about replacing the Mobo and CPU now. Granted, PCI-Express was not in the running yet, so that allowed me to upgrade RAM, sound card, and Video Card over time, and keep that baby hummin' as long as possible.

My perspective, as with a lot of other people, is that there are at least SOME things one can do to string along the life of the majority of the system without having to replace everything all at once, which is a more economical approach than spending approx. $1500 every 2-3 years.

The upgrade path most critical to this approach would have to be Video Card and CPU, in that order. If you can't increase one, you better damn well be able to increase the other, or you have ZERO upgrade path for gaming.

I MUST HAVE PCI-E!!!
--> With current 754, you have only AGP VGA upgrades for the mean time, and the last CPU on a dying socket which means that when Nforce4 comes out, unless they have PCI-E on Skt. 754, you can't even simply buy just a new motherboard to support it, nor would you want to.

** 2 year bottom line (minimum): New mobo, CPU, new video card

--> With current 939, you have CPU and VGA upgrades in the limited foreseeable future. And, if you need PCI-Express in two years, you can just buy a new 939 Mobo, supporting PCI-E and AGP(you know they will be there), and keep your current 939 CPU and VGA-card ta boot. Even if in two years you don't want to keep it that ancient 6800 Ultra or X800 XT Platinum, that's why you bought the new mobo dude!

** 2 year bottom line (minimum): New mobo, new video card

There is a million different ways to slice it, but my take is that if you must go to PCI-E in two years, having to buy an entirely new CPU for the previous more than offsets the high price for today's 939 on AGP.

Sorry for being a windbag.

 

[alent1234]

939 is more pins, more bandwidth, change in RAM better performance. That means different timings for signals traveling around the motherboard and different circuits for the CPU, RAM, video and chipset since to accomodate the extra pins. I would rather wait for the early adopters/enthusiasts (beta testers) to find any bugs or problems.

 

[Brickster]

Okay, point made well made. I think I have a high-level understanding that allowing for dual-channel, different sockets, circuitry modifications and such, requires that there is definitely an element of beta testing.

I guess my conceptual thinking is that this 939 is basically a marrying of the best elements of socket 940 (dual channel) and 754(proven chipsets), and that if board makers have already worked out the kinks for them individually with other sockets, that things should - in theory - be a lot less prone for bugs once paired. Thoughts?

For those early adopters, has anyone have any issues with 939 yet?

Thanks,

 

[reelbigfish214]

I personally just made this decsion. I usually upgrade every 1.5-2 years. For now I'm coming from an Athlon XP with a 333Mhz FSB. I went with an Athlon 64 3000+ socket 754 becuase the dual channel memory controller doesn't really make that much of a difference for the A64. My video card, however, is only about 1 year old, it is a Radeon 9800 Pro. I got this when it first came out and had already had my mobo and cpu. So essentially my next card will be AGP because it needs to fit in the socket 754 board that only has AGP. If I get a current generation ATI or nvidia card that should last me that 1.5-2 years.

When building a mid-range computer there is no way the socket 939 makes sense. I also don't care about PCI-express at this price point, becuase it will be still too expensive when it comes out and needs to be tested to find the bugs. The only piece of hardware I bought without waiting for it to be tested was the Radeon 9800 Pro because I saw how well the 9700 Pro did and took a risk. Not a bad one I'd say .

I pretty much agree with most of the points made, but unless you need to be on the cutting edge, there isn't any point just yet to wait for PCI-express. Current technology will suffice to run almost anything that comes out. Also, the perfomance gains from PCI-express aren't big enough to say "wow, I need that!". It's like going to from CD to DVD in terms of storage, there is more, but not compelling enough to make a full swtich unlike when we went from floppy to CD. There was so much storage space it changed the way things were. PCI-express isn't that kind of technology but has the potential to be that high performance.

 

[alent1234]

This 939 and PCIe thing reminds me of when the P2's first came out with AGP. The benchmarks said that it wasn't worth the premium. I spent around $1500 then to build me a PC around a P2 266, Riva TNT and a Voodoo 2. I got the Voodoo 2 the day it hit the streets in NYC. I got to the store in the morning, asked them to hold one and loitered in the area for 3-4 hours. Back in those days I had an AMD 486 CPU and it was a brand new build for me. I was a noob and believed all the marketing hype about how you needed the fastest machine possible. My favorite one that I fell for was a suggestion that by the end of 1998 a lot of the new games would require a Voodoo 2. That didn't happen for a few more years. But Wing Commander Prophecy looked very nice on that voodoo 2.

If I build a PC this year then it will most likely be socket 754. If I wait until next year and socket 939 is down to sane prices then I'll think about it. By then chipsets will be available that actually take advantage of it. The current offerings make me think of Intel's little scams. Release a brand new CPU in an old socket and charge an arm and a leg for no performance gain. A few months later release the new chipsets that are designed for it and a new socket and charge a lot of money again.


The one thing that really worries me now is that I think games are due for a nice growth spurt in minimum requirements. Anyone who has been around the block for a while knows this. For a long time the minimum requirements are pretty low compared to the average system speed being sold by the big manufacturers like Dell and the average CPU speed on the market. Remember when 1.5GHz was the norm and the minimums on most games were around 400MHz? Then it seemed like almost every game after C&C Generals wants a 1GHz and higher. Today 1.5GHz minimum and close to 3GHz recommended is not uncommon. The fastest CPU speed is around 3.6GHz. Looking at history I'm pretty sure that when the recommended requirements start to hit the max cpu speed on the market a growth spurt is due. I'm worried about buying a A64 3000 and 12 months from now looking at games that require 2.5GHz and recommend 3.6. I like to buy a system with a CPU that is at least 1.5 times faster than the highest recommended system requirement of the market. I think that is a nice cushion since recommended means that you can't play at max settings most of the time anyway.

 

[AlexBmur]

All of you have made very valid points. And I am one of the many people who can't seem to decide weather to hold out for PCIe or not. But I am trying to be realistic, when can we actually expect PCIe to arrive for S939? Which chipset is the closest to bring PCIe to S939 and when will that be? I remember reading that SIS has a chipset for S939 that supports PCIe and it sounded like they were the most ready to release it. I haven't heard much from VIA, and today on the Inquirer, they said we shouldn't expect nForce4 until the very end of the year. So the way I see it, if I have to wait until December to get PCIe, then I will just go ahead and get an AGP motherboard, but if we can expect PCIe within the next 2 months then I would be willing to hold out.

I guess my real question is how soon can we expect PCIe on S939?

 

[AnnoyedGrunt]

Continuing with the AGP/PCIe theme, I do believe that companies will continue to release AGP cards, however, I don't believe they will release their newer, faster cards on AGP (I'm talking maybe 1-1.5 years from now). I think that if you get an AGP MB now, you can expect probably two generations of video cards to work. The initial generation is the X800/6800 series available now, and the second generation is the next major upgrade afterwards (I think R500 is the ATI chip, mabe NV50 for Nvidia). After that, I wouldn't be surprised to see companies to stop offering faster cards, simply because 1 year from now all new computers will have PCIe (mainly due to Intel not offering AGP anymore). Therefore, there is no point for the vid card people to offer their fastest stuff on AGP, since only people with "old" CPU's will still have AGP. Anyhow, if ATI and Nvidia offer their next big update on AGP, that should still be a pretty good upgrade. Remember that it didn't take long at all for AGP cards to quickly outshine PCI cards as the faster solution. I think the same thing will happen with PCIe (except, not because AGP is limiting anything from a performance standpoint, but simply because that is where the market is headed).

So, I think there will be AGP cards available for quite some time but you won't be able to get the fastest cards in that config.

I, too, am wondering when we'll see PCIe on 939.

-D'oh!

 

[imported_Aelius]

Unless PCIe bandwidth can increase from 4GB/sec to 36GB/sec (800%) you will see no real performance increase because the video cards (at least the way they are engineered) cannot take advantage of them. Modern GPUs runs with a bandwidth of 36GB/sec (Gainward toped this recently using watercooling on a 6800U to 40GB/sec) and logically you cannot cram even 36GB of data through a hole that is only 4GB wide. You would basically create a bottleneck and kill performance outright.

Maybe, and I use the word loosely, you will see comparable bandwidth in PCIe 3 years from now but it is fooly to think that it will appear 1 year from now. New tech coming out 1 year from now has almost all been released at this years tech shows and the closest thing I saw was coming from ASUS (I think) whom came up with a device to boost PCIe performance by 50%. Whoopie do.

All major video card suppliers were hinting, publicly, that they would not make any AGP video cards starting 2004 Q1 and that PCIe would replace everything. *cough*marketing retards*cough*

Trust me, unless PCIe can skyrocket in performance every year you will never see it replace AGP. Since it could possibly do this, in theory, I'm sure that they can pull it off at some point.

But don't hold your breath and most certainly don't bother waiting because I suspect you will end up waiting a VERY long time.

 

[Thor86]

You can barely get the top of the line AGP cards, what makes you think you can even find a PCI-E card to use on these new motherboards?

 

[Brickster]

Well, that does it...I finally fried my motherboard last night that housed my old Pentium 3. I absolutely have to upgrade now.

I am going to not even think about PCI-Express until I have to, and go with what works...AGP. Money is not too much of an issue at the moment, so I am going to do 939 and probably get the 3500+. I figure by the time I need a new CPU, those prices should be nice an low on a higher clocked 939 chip.

Now, if only we can go back to the original comment...where the heck are all those 939 boards!!!??? All I need is a board, and my system is set.

Anyone have a comment on the GigabyteGA-K8NSNXP-939 ?

Thanks,

 

[Krash]

Brickster,

I've been trying to glean as much info as possible from this and other forums on 939 mobo's and their availability. This thread has been one of the better ones.

I'm one who can, it seems, to be able to always wait for the next great upgrade. My FIC Super 7/K6-III 450, however, is getting a little long in the tooth. I'm obviously not a gamer!

With regard to the Gigabyte GA-K8NSNXP-939 I think you'll be interested in the review done July 3rd at Short Media. Here

It seems there is a problem with the capacitors interfering with the heatsink as shown on page 8. Looks Scary

I too have been waiting for the release of the nForce3 250GB boards esp. the MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum. Will it ever show up?.

If nothing is available shortly I may have to go with the ASUS A8V with the VIA K8T800 Pro chipset.

_______________
What do you think?

K8N Neo2 Platinum s939
AMD 3500+
OCZ PC3500 EB 2x512MB
MSI RX9800Pro-TD128
NEC 8X Black Dual Layer DVD+/-RW Drive

and to keep it quiet:

Zalman Reserator1 with the VGA waterblock ZM-GWB1
_______________

I have waiting to be used:

a 6 months old empty Antec Sonata case w/380W PS (Hope it won't be overloaded)
and a super looking Dell 20.1" 2001FP

Krash

 

[Brickster]

Originally posted by: Krash
I've been trying to glean as much info as possible from this and other forums on 939 mobo's and their availability. This thread has been one of the better ones.

Thanks to tophman for starting it.

With regard to the Gigabyte GA-K8NSNXP-939 I think you'll be interested in the review done July 3rd at Short Media. Here

It seems there is a problem with the capacitors interfering with the heatsink as shown on page 8. Looks Scary

Wow, that does look scary! Though it does look like they were able to get things working without breaking one off, I definitely would be sweating bullets trying to work around those things. What terrible placement!

I too have been waiting for the release of the nForce3 250GB boards esp. the MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum. Will it ever show up?.

If nothing is available shortly I may have to go with the ASUS A8V with the VIA K8T800 Pro chipset.

That ASUS board looks like it did well in the reviews. I haven't really been investigating the ASUS to tell you the truth. I have been waiting for the nForce3 boards, as I have read that the positive reviews on them, and have also read (someone please correct me if I am wrong) that this chipset should work faster with Nvidia Geforce 6800 Ultra GPU (pairing of Nvidia w/ Nvidia), rather than perhaps the VIA with the 6800U ??

Is that bogus?

Personally, I like the features of this board, especially the Dual BIOS, as I fried the BIOS on my last machine and had to scrap the mobo -- boy, that feature would have been nice to have!

And yes, I do wish the MSI were here so I could have a nForce3 board to compare this Gigabyte to. I have heard a lot of good things about the MSI Neo (754), so am VERY interested in the Neo2. Unfortunately, it is LAGGGGGGING to the retail market hardcore; I am not sure if I can wait.

_______________
What do you think?

K8N Neo2 Platinum s939
AMD 3500+
OCZ PC3500 EB 2x512MB
MSI RX9800Pro-TD128
NEC 8X Black Dual Layer DVD+/-RW Drive

and to keep it quiet:

Zalman Reserator1 with the VGA waterblock ZM-GWB1
_______________

I have waiting to be used:

a 6 months old empty Antec Sonata case w/380W PS (Hope it won't be overloaded)
and a super looking Dell 20.1" 2001FP

Krash

Krash, lastly, thanks for the GREAT post. I really appreciate the help, and you are a good case why I keep coming back to Anandtech forums because of the strong community of members helping members.

That system sounds almost identical to the one I am purchasing. Definitely going with the 3500+, but I am only going for Corsair XMS 3200 XL 2x512MB. Not quite as fast, but I don't plan on doing any OCing at the moment -- that stuff kinda scares me

Also, I personally would get a higher Wattage PSU for future Vid Card upgrades; the Antec's are reasonably priced.

Take care,

 

[Krash]

Hey guys, looks like the first offering for the K8N Neo2 Platinum s939.

If you thought the Gigabyte was expensive... :roll: How bad do you want it?

Check it out under 939 (near the bottom of the page).

Here

MSI K8N NEO2 PLATINUM NVIDIA NFORCE3 ULTRA SOCKET 939 FSB1000 AGP8X SATA GBLAN IEEE 1394 - Detail Specs $389.95

 

[Brickster]

Yeah, I saw that from ATACOM...what a joke...bet it isn't even in stock yet.

 

[golgotha]

Hey guys, looks like the first offering for the K8N Neo2 Platinum s939.

If you thought the Gigabyte was expensive... How bad do you want it?

Check it out under 939 (near the bottom of the page).

Here

MSI K8N NEO2 PLATINUM NVIDIA NFORCE3 ULTRA SOCKET 939 FSB1000 AGP8X SATA GBLAN IEEE 1394 - Detail Specs $389.95

Holy Sunshine, that price is outrageous!

 

[Brickster]

Just found the review for the MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum 939 board on PC Perspective!

Enjoy!

 

[Brickster]

With regard to the Gigabyte GA-K8NSNXP-939 I think you'll be interested in the review done July 3rd at Short Media. Here

It seems there is a problem with the capacitors interfering with the heatsink as shown on page 8. Looks Scary

Krash,

Dude, I went ahead with this purchase; I figure if they can work around the capacitors, so can I, plus I like the dual BIOS feature.

check it:

________________________________________
3500+ A64 (939)
Gigabyte GA-K8NSNXP-939
Corsair XMS 3200XL DDR400 1GB RAM 2-2-2-5
74GB Western Digital Raptor
Antec TRUE 550W
Antec Aluminum P-160 Case
Geforce 6800 Ultra (going to wait a month on this)
________________________________________

I'm thinking this should keep me happy for a few months, right?

Peace!

 

[phray]

Originally posted by: golgotha

Hey guys, looks like the first offering for the K8N Neo2 Platinum s939.

If you thought the Gigabyte was expensive... How bad do you want it?

Check it out under 939 (near the bottom of the page).

Here

MSI K8N NEO2 PLATINUM NVIDIA NFORCE3 ULTRA SOCKET 939 FSB1000 AGP8X SATA GBLAN IEEE 1394 - Detail Specs $389.95

Holy Sunshine, that price is outrageous!

yeah, thats way too expensive. the only other place i've seen it even listed is here. and the list the price as 101euros. which comes out to $125. very nice.

 

[Krash]

Brickster,

Good going!
I know what you're up against, I'm even looking at the Asus A8V Deluxe. ZZF has it down to $143.

I thought I saw that the locks were removed but I can't find anything on it. Even read through 42 pages at Extreme Forums and those guys couldn't settle on how it's done.

I guess I'll just wait another week and see what happens, hell I've been waiting a couple of years already. And my wife says I overanylize everything! :disgust:

Krash