96 Saturn SL1 starting problems in cold weather

[Jittles]

When there is cold weather here, and there is plenty here in Alaska, my wife's Saturn ceased to start.

If I take off the intake tubing (not a car guru here, not very technical terminology) and bring it inside, after it thaws I can dump a smallish amount of water out of it.

I believe this is the cause for the problem, and a mechanic told me that it takes in cold outside air instead of air off of a warm part of the engine and this leads to the condensation. If this is true, then I am not sure if there is even anything I can fix.

Strange problem for sure, maybe somebody has some insight here.

~130k miles

Multiple things have been replaced, including spark plugs most recently and O2 sensor, fuel pressure regulator ( I think, dont remember the exact name, it has to do with the same issues as the O2 sensor) and finally a new cat convertor within a few thousand miles.

My only thought is perhaps trying something different with the whole air intake/filter system, but I have no clue where to begin.

Thanks for any help.

 

[Howard]

What happens when you try to start the car?

 

[boomerang]

I think you've fallen into the common trap of self-diagnosis.

You haven't given quite enough information IMO, but here goes. Howard is asking what happens when you try to start it and I'm interested in that too.

You're saying smallish amount of water. I'd say that's normal for the winter in Alaska. Now, if you'd said that there was a block of ice in the intake tube that would be another story. Driving the engine long enough to warm it up thoroughly should be enough to take care of any condensation problems in your intake system. The fact that you can get out a smallish amount of water, tells me that you have no problems in that regard.

You've listed off some parts that were replaced recently. Were they put on to alleviate the starting problem? If so, you need to find another mechanic. I do however like the fuel pressure regulator, but you are uncertain if that's what was actually replaced. A fuel pressure regulator problem could contribute to hard starting for sure.

I'll take a wild guess and say you've got a problem with your coolant temperature sensor. It's giving the computer incorrect information and the computer is not providing enough additional fuel to start the engine when it's cold. For example, the sensor may be saying that it's 38° outside when it's 10° below. Low coolant level comes to mind also. Not too low to overheat in the cold winter, but low enough to have the coolant temp sensor give a false reading. Your car may have an IAT (intake air temperature) sensor that could be bad or skewed. You could have a bad MAF. The list goes on.

Please, do not start throwing parts at the car based on my internet diagnosis. Take the car somewhere that has a scan tool that they can hook up prior to starting the car after staying there overnight. They should easily be able to diagnose this.

A skewed coolant temp sensor will not set a trouble code for those that are wondering.

 

[Jittles]

Ok, the other repairs weren't specifically for this problem, I was just listing some work that was done within the last 5k miles in case it could be related.

After the car is driven in cold conditions and then is left to sit overnight, it will turn over until the cows come home but never start.

I drain the water and with the intake still off it takes a damn lot of coaxing to get going. This same mechanic used some sort of a starting fluid to help it get going and once it gets started, it won't ever actually straight up die while driving or idling.

I have taken the car in to a Saturn dealership and they could not tell me why it is doing it either.

The car drives and starts flawlessly the entire summer, without so much as a hiccup.

The mechanic I speak of is a very experienced ~50 year old guy who did it as his profession and his diagnosis and fixes on any other number of problems have been spot on.

 

[LTC8K6]

Try holding the gas pedal to the floor when you crank it. If it starts when you do this, it's flooding.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Jittles
Ok, the other repairs weren't specifically for this problem, I was just listing some work that was done within the last 5k miles in case it could be related.

After the car is driven in cold conditions and then is left to sit overnight, it will turn over until the cows come home but never start.

I drain the water and with the intake still off it takes a damn lot of coaxing to get going. This same mechanic used some sort of a starting fluid to help it get going and once it gets started, it won't ever actually straight up die while driving or idling.

I have taken the car in to a Saturn dealership and they could not tell me why it is doing it either.

The car drives and starts flawlessly the entire summer, without so much as a hiccup.

The mechanic I speak of is a very experienced ~50 year old guy who did it as his profession and his diagnosis and fixes on any other number of problems have been spot on.

You've got a fuel related problem. Whoever does the diagnosis on this has to have the car overnight. It must stay outside or in an unheated garage. Ideally they should duplicate the conditions under which the car is in when in your possession. They need to check the fuel pressure at key turn and crank. They need to have a scan tool hooked up also. If it has the proper fuel pressure and holds it, then it has to be determined why the engine is not getting the proper mixture to start. The next step is sensors (the scan tool). Then it needs an injector pressure drop test. They fire each injector and record the pressure drop.

You could have carbon build up on the intake valves or manifold (or both) that is acting as a sponge soaking up the fuel. The injectors could need to be cleaned.

I can't tell you exactly what it is from here but if it won't start for you, the problem should be easy to reproduce. As I said, it needs to be left overnight outside and diagnosed right outside in the lot. It won't start when cold, it needs to be cold to diagnose it.

You didn't mention if the check engine light is on. Is it? If so, it needs to be hooked up to a scan tool. A scan tool can take a snapshot of everything at the time the problem occurs. This data can be reviewed and even printed out if needed. It sometimes takes careful evaluation to determine where the real problem lies. I think your problem is going to be simple to diagnose, it just needs the proper equipment and someone willing to reproduce the conditions under which it occurs.

 

[Jittles]

No check engine light, no other indicators on.

Basically it's gonna cost an arm and a leg to just get a diagnosis :/

The car isn't worth more than $2000 in good shape so I am probably not going to get it done.

I was hoping it might be a bit easier to figure out; I am keeping the car right now just for the adventure of tearing into it myself in an attempt to fix it.

Thanks for the advice, although it makes me a bit sad.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Jittles
No check engine light, no other indicators on.

Basically it's gonna cost an arm and a leg to just get a diagnosis :/

The car isn't worth more than $2000 in good shape so I am probably not going to get it done.

I was hoping it might be a bit easier to figure out; I am keeping the car right now just for the adventure of tearing into it myself in an attempt to fix it.

Thanks for the advice, although it makes me a bit sad.

If you want to spend a little money and have the tools and the inclination, replace the coolant temp sensor and then make sure the coolant is full afterwards. You have to understand that this is a shot in the dark so no posting back that I'm a no good so and so - please?

The sensor should be inexpensive. Don't buy the sender for the gages. They are different.

 

[Kaervak]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: Jittles
No check engine light, no other indicators on.

Basically it's gonna cost an arm and a leg to just get a diagnosis :/

The car isn't worth more than $2000 in good shape so I am probably not going to get it done.

I was hoping it might be a bit easier to figure out; I am keeping the car right now just for the adventure of tearing into it myself in an attempt to fix it.

Thanks for the advice, although it makes me a bit sad.

If you want to spend a little money and have the tools and the inclination, replace the coolant temp sensor and then make sure the coolant is full afterwards. You have to understand that this is a shot in the dark so no posting back that I'm a no good so and so - please?

The sensor should be inexpensive. Don't buy the sender for the gages. They are different.

I'll second this. The original resin based ECTS is prone to failure and can cause a metric shatner load of problems. Replace it with one that's brass, and if necessary replace the connector too. You may also want to look into the crank position sensor. And, post this over at the saturnfans forum. There are a ton of us over there that will give you absurdly indepth help and suggestions on how to fix it.

 

[Jittles]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: Jittles
No check engine light, no other indicators on.

Basically it's gonna cost an arm and a leg to just get a diagnosis :/

The car isn't worth more than $2000 in good shape so I am probably not going to get it done.

I was hoping it might be a bit easier to figure out; I am keeping the car right now just for the adventure of tearing into it myself in an attempt to fix it.

Thanks for the advice, although it makes me a bit sad.

If you want to spend a little money and have the tools and the inclination, replace the coolant temp sensor and then make sure the coolant is full afterwards. You have to understand that this is a shot in the dark so no posting back that I'm a no good so and so - please?

The sensor should be inexpensive. Don't buy the sender for the gages. They are different.

Coolant temp sensor eh.

I am prepared to spend a little bit of money to investigate, it all just helps me learn a bit more about engines even if it doesn't end up being the problem.

I promise I won't post back that you're no good!

 

[boomerang]

Take up Kaervak's offer. I imagine you'd get good advice from people with the same car that have experienced the same problems.

For now he's backing up my thoughts on the sensor and it's inexpensive to replace. If that doesn't take care of it, head over to the saturnfans forum.

 

[Possessed Freak]

The Engine Coolant Temp Sensor is a 10 dollar part. Most auto places have it. It is very easy to replace yourself, but note the Sender is located above the Sensor. They are almost identical except for the wire harness. 2x on the saturnfans.com site. Wealth of information over there.

 

[Jittles]

I registered over at saturnfans.com, very very good info including details on replacing the ECTS, even the socket size I need!

Going to try the ECTS since it's so inexpensive and then go from there. Thanks for the link to the website it's great.

 

[StageLeft]

Maybe the cold thing thawing inside is drawing moisture from the air, thus the water (?).

 

[Kaervak]

Originally posted by: Jittles
I registered over at saturnfans.com, very very good info including details on replacing the ECTS, even the socket size I need!

Going to try the ECTS since it's so inexpensive and then go from there. Thanks for the link to the website it's great.

If you think that's good, check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...k&feature=channel_page

Richpin has a ton of Saturn videos and is a regular poster at the forum too.

Oh, if you do need an ECTS connector, let me know. I have a few of them laying around, cost of shipping. The dealer, last I checked is close to $30.

 

[radioouman]

I didn't read the thread but it is most likely the coolant temp sensor. The older Saturns had a resin coolant temp sensor that would split and provide a false reading. A friend's Saturn was reading 40 degrees too cold and it would flood the engine and make it impossible to start when it was cold out.

The newer design is a brass sensor. Go to the dealer and buy it and enjoy your Saturn.

 

[LTC8K6]

A friend's Saturn was reading 40 degrees too cold and it would flood the engine and make it impossible to start when it was cold out.

Yeah, that's why I suggested using the flooded start procedure of holding the pedal to the floor while cranking.