9800GX2-->"Up to a 90% performance increase over the...

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: nRollo
It takes multiple high end GPUs to run current games at high res/high detail now- what will change in this future era? Will devs be going back to Quake2 level graphics so we don't need discrete anymore? Or will GPU design be so advanced it somehow now does the same work in a package that will fit on the same die with the cpu?

That's not even true. My 8800GTS 320mb, a midrange card, runs every game out there at high-res and high settings, aside from Crysis (which nothing can run at those settings).

The one point that both you and Ben have failed to address remains: What will happen to nVidia when their low-end GPU sales are syphoned off by these Fusion-type processors? Most people are casual gamers and are happy if their PC can run Solitare. I'm thinking this is bound to affect them financially.

I thought they already covered this?

In case you haven't been following the CPU scene, AMD is having enough trouble competing (profitably) with Intel on non-Fusion processors. Any "free die space" that AMD gets with a shrinking process and/or other manufacturing advances (in which AMD are perpetually behind due to having only a fraction of Intel's budget) ought to be dedicated to additional logic/cache to make the chip run faster, cooler, or whatever. Or just accept the reduced cost and sell them cheaper with the same profit margins.

Phenom is...well...looking bleak. B3 is not looking stellar... It's more like damage control. AMD lacks the momentum from the enthusiast community. They're low on cash, too. Plus they can never match Intel's budget or manufacturing capabilities, even if the K10/10.5 design is significantly better. And that's assuming AMD doesn't run into another slew of Phenom B2-like issues such as the TLB bug, slow core 3, crippled MMU/cache... Sheesh.

Intel isn't exactly sitting still.

Throwing stripped-down GPU cores into the mix...well...it doesn't make any sense to me. That just increases the complexity, which means higher cost and more chance to make mistakes. When you want to grab market share, you leverage your strengths; you don't drown out your competitors with a constant stream of hype about how one day you'll grind them under your feet with the crushing weight of your own weaknesses.

Aren't integrated GPU profits chump change compared to CPU profits?

Fusion strikes me as marketing mumbo-jumbo, smoke and mirrors to make the company execs look like they know what they're doing or to make the company look good to potential investors/buyers. It's just a first impression. The reason I say this is that the people I see talking about it on the forums don't seem to have any specific idea what it's supposed to do, or how it's supposed to do whatever it is that it's supposed to do. The only thing being mentioned is some vague notion that tying CPU and GPU into one package will result in...something financially good?...for AMD.

 

[Margalus]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

That may be so, but I wasn't impressed with my 3870X2 either and I was using the most recent Cat 8.3 drivers.

My experience with the X2 was this: the avg fps appeared to be decent, but game play was often not smooth.

yes, most people just look at the average framerates which makes the 3870x2 look really good. Too bad the averages are because of some ridiculous highs that overpower the ridiculous low framerates you get. I don't look at hardocp reviews, that site is trash. But firingsquad had a review that showed the minimum and maximum framerates in a few of the benchmarks along with the avg. In some games the single 8800 would be dipping down in the 50fps area while the 3870x2 would drop down to 20fps. that is a gameplay killer regardless of whether the 'average' is higher on the 3870x2.

Maybe newer drivers have fixed that, but until I see an updated review on a trustful website with newer drivers I would say the 3870x2 just isn't as good as some are saying.

It's the minimum framerates that affect gameplay the most, so that is what I look at.

 

[apoppin]

Fusion is AMD's *vision* ... it is how they view their taking on intel's Goliath with a David-like sling .. it is really quite "long-term" .. very long term for a relatively small company [compared to intel] like AMD.

Will it work? .. i really don't know if their strategy will succeed or fail miserably .. but they appear to be "committed" ... i hope it is not their "netburst" or they will not be able to recover in the foreseeable future.

i believe AMD is putting all their eggs into their Fusion Basket ... do or die .. AMD's style .. exciting times for investors
You also have to realize that the reason people are being vague about Fusion is because AMD won't really give details for "security reasons"

agree or not, they are back from the dead ... and they evidently have an answer to NVIDIA .. which is a hell of a lot better than what they had a year ago ... with nothing but failed launches, lies, smoke and broken promises to set against NVIDIA's G80.

3870 has been proclaimed the "single-slot fastest solution" by most of the review sites ... i'd say they came a long way since last Summer

 

[nullpointerus]

I'm not knocking AMD's GPUs.

I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to believe that AMD will try to corner the integrated GPU market by tying those good GPUs to a faltering CPU roadmap. If AMD's CPU future were looking bright, things would be different, but it isn't.

As to being vague for "security reasons," I agree that's possible, but how do you know that isn't just (more) BS?

What do YOU think Fusion is?

Isn't Intel also (semi-secretly) working on GPU technology?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nullpointerus
I'm not knocking AMD's GPUs.

I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to believe that AMD will try to corner the integrated GPU market by tying those good GPUs to a faltering CPU roadmap. If AMD's CPU future were looking bright, things would be different, but it isn't.

As to being vague for "security reasons," I agree that's possible, but how do you know that isn't just (more) BS?

What do YOU think Fusion is?

Isn't Intel also (semi-secretly) working on GPU technology?

Of course you are knocking AMD GPUs
[it was that 2900xt, wasn't it?]
.. and you are really *blasting* AMD CPUs
[ .. and right after telling us you had serious problems with "AGP" as a platform]
:roll:

IF AMD *falters* seriously with Phenom, you can write them completely 'OFF' as any kind of major player

The best you can hope for in that scenario is they will spin off ATi as they go under .. NVIDIA will be waiting with a huge bucket of cash trying to pick up pieces of the x86 license as they fall from the breaking-up company

there are two possibilities in my assessment

1) Fusion is "smoke and mirrors" .. to keep their investors distracted while they "think of something". Remember back to after i started a very CONTROVERSIAL thread that basically said Hector Ruiz was not telling the truth about the endless delays, respins, canceled launches and PR Bullshit about "waiting for the r600 family" ?

Well, he responded - i guess many of their [now former] fans were asking the same questions - in that interview as published in AT's article about it .... and i appreciated that he was more candid ... but you can still see he is still holding a LOT back

2) Fusion is real. The vision of AMD to have much more integration of CPU-GPU and especially the ability to "modularize" it ... to 'plug in' HW parts that target what the end user wants without "overkill" for what is not needed.

YOU want ME to say?

ha hah ha!

 

[Margalus]

right now it's all rumor. But the thing is, the msrp price. if it is $599, so what? The msrp of the 8800gts 512 is $349, $599 is $100 less than 2 8800gts as far as nvidia's msrp goes. You have to wait until the cards are released to know what the street price will be and what the performance will be.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: trajan2050
I've seen plenty of reviews complain about lack of Crossfire support with the 3870x2. Blacklash used one, and he's perfectly free to share his experience.

and his info is 100% out of date ,, he used it for only 24 hours .. just for the sole purpose of dissing it, i think

ask me about crossfire

anything



what he did would be like me buying a GX2 ... and then looking for all the shit to say about it

That may be so, but I wasn't impressed with my 3870X2 either and I was using the most recent Cat 8.3 drivers.

Your experiences with 2900 Frankenfire is about as relevant as to the HD 3870 X2 my SLI experiences with the 7-series NVIDIA cards is to 9600GT SLI - It's not relevant at all. Your 'information' is 100% out of date because you don't have any experience with the hardware being discussed.

My experience with the X2 was this: the avg fps appeared to be decent, but game play was often not smooth. My guess is that the X2 would occasionally 'spike' to a very low min fps that didn't affect the avg. fps in terms of numbers, but was very noticeable when playing games. Honestly, for about equal money, the 8800GTX (still!) offers an overall better and more consistent experience IMO. I know you hate them, but HardOCP's subjective testing basically says the same thing.

what a load of nonsense .. you are guessing, as you admit

my CrossFire *scales* just like any other CrossFire
--Frankenfire or not

HardOCP is the holy grail of pro-NVIDIA benchmarks - their "real world" testing is bullshit ... with "imagined spikes" that supposedly affects performance
:roll:

I trust Nitro's experience with the 3870X2, I've never known him to lie and he always buys both brands to try. If he says minimums were lower with the 8.3s and a 3870X2 resulting in a worse gaming experience, it's likely true.

HardOCP isn't the only one saying this BTW:

Check out the minimums in FSs review

As far as HardOCP being "pro NVIDIA" goes:

1. Kyle personally banned me just for being in the Focus Group- I didn't even violate his TOS. Does that sound like someone looking to suck up to NVIDIA? Bans their focus group members because he feels like it?

2. All you have to do is read H's review of ATi products when they had better products (9800/X1900) and you'll see H saying ATi has the best products. The "review sites are biased!" claim when ATi products aren't on top is pretty beat. I don't think it's a shocker to anyone that you're better off with one high end gpu than two value ones in AFR in terms of consistency.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: trajan2050
I've seen plenty of reviews complain about lack of Crossfire support with the 3870x2. Blacklash used one, and he's perfectly free to share his experience.

and his info is 100% out of date ,, he used it for only 24 hours .. just for the sole purpose of dissing it, i think

ask me about crossfire

anything



what he did would be like me buying a GX2 ... and then looking for all the shit to say about it

That may be so, but I wasn't impressed with my 3870X2 either and I was using the most recent Cat 8.3 drivers.

Your experiences with 2900 Frankenfire is about as relevant as to the HD 3870 X2 my SLI experiences with the 7-series NVIDIA cards is to 9600GT SLI - It's not relevant at all. Your 'information' is 100% out of date because you don't have any experience with the hardware being discussed.

My experience with the X2 was this: the avg fps appeared to be decent, but game play was often not smooth. My guess is that the X2 would occasionally 'spike' to a very low min fps that didn't affect the avg. fps in terms of numbers, but was very noticeable when playing games. Honestly, for about equal money, the 8800GTX (still!) offers an overall better and more consistent experience IMO. I know you hate them, but HardOCP's subjective testing basically says the same thing.

what a load of nonsense .. you are guessing, as you admit

my CrossFire *scales* just like any other CrossFire
--Frankenfire or not

HardOCP is the holy grail of pro-NVIDIA benchmarks - their "real world" testing is bullshit ... with "imagined spikes" that supposedly affects performance
:roll:

I trust Nitro's experience with the 3870X2, I've never known him to lie and he always buys both brands to try. If he says minimums were lower with the 8.3s and a 3870X2 resulting in a worse gaming experience, it's likely true.

HardOCP isn't the only one saying this BTW:

Check out the minimums in FSs review

As far as HardOCP being "pro NVIDIA" goes:

1. Kyle personally banned me just for being in the Focus Group- I didn't even violate his TOS. Does that sound like someone looking to suck up to NVIDIA? Bans their focus group members because he feels like it?

2. All you have to do is read H's review of ATi products when they had better products (9800/X1900) and you'll see H saying ATi has the best products. The "review sites are biased!" claim when ATi products aren't on top is pretty beat. I don't think it's a shocker to anyone that you're better off with one high end gpu than two value ones in AFR in terms of consistency.

first of all, i did not suggest Nitro is lying .. i asked if his card might be defective
- that is a big difference between what i said to him and what i said to Blacklash

Secondly, i don't think Kyle "personally banned [you] just for being in the Focus Group"

Maybe his "real world testing" has made him even more illogical. i just note his advertising. And if what you say is true, you are not really "NVIDIA" .. just a guy on the forums that speaks his OWN mind and gets free HW from them ... so why should nvidia care at all. HardOCP is not such a very important forum, i think .. especially when Kyle allows no one to criticize him

i haven't seen any "really" pro AMD graphics conclusions from him since "Real world benchmarking" began .. perhaps "lip service" to something unimportant or indisputable to give the impression "fair and balanced" ... but then you would not really recognize "anti ATi" as even being what it really is.

:roll:

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: nRollo
I trust Nitro's experience with the 3870X2, I've never known him to lie and he always buys both brands to try. If he says minimums were lower with the 8.3s and a 3870X2 resulting in a worse gaming experience, it's likely true.

HardOCP isn't the only one saying this BTW:

Check out the minimums in FSs review

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

That table you linked to is interesting... The X2 has the highest and lowest fps, so while it scores the best in terms of average fps (110) it actually provides the worst gaming experience out of all the cards in that specific bench.

I don't think that this is going to be an issue that is ATI exclusive. As both ATI and NVIDIA move towards pushing multiple mid range gpus instead if single gpu powerhouses, min fps will become more of a factor in overall gameplay.

Originally posted by: apoppin
first of all, i did not suggest Nitro is lying .. i asked if his card might be defective
- that is a big difference between what i said to him and what i said to Blacklash

The card isn't defective. It works fine, it just doesn't perform great in some situations. Other times it kicks ass.

Crossfire is working also - I can tell because as soon as I disable Cat A.I. and it only uses one gpu performance plummets.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: nRollo
I trust Nitro's experience with the 3870X2, I've never known him to lie and he always buys both brands to try. If he says minimums were lower with the 8.3s and a 3870X2 resulting in a worse gaming experience, it's likely true.

HardOCP isn't the only one saying this BTW:

Check out the minimums in FSs review

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

That table you linked to is interesting... The X2 has the highest and lowest fps, so while it scores the best in terms of average fps (110) it actually provides the worst gaming experience out of all the cards in that specific bench.

I don't think that this is going to be an issue that is ATI exclusive. As both ATI and NVIDIA move towards pushing multiple mid range gpus instead if single gpu powerhouses, min fps will become more of a factor in overall gameplay.

Originally posted by: apoppin
first of all, i did not suggest Nitro is lying .. i asked if his card might be defective
- that is a big difference between what i said to him and what i said to Blacklash

The card isn't defective. It works fine, it just doesn't perform great in some situations. Other times it kicks ass.

Crossfire is working also - I can tell because as soon as I disable Cat A.I. and it only uses one gpu performance plummets.

hey, i gave you a vote of confidence too!
- i never ever suggested you were lying or that you would skew your conclusions !

!!

i was just asking for details ... the way you described it -

My experience with the X2 was this: the avg fps appeared to be decent, but game play was often not smooth. My guess is that the X2 would occasionally 'spike' to a very low min fps that didn't affect the avg. fps in terms of numbers, but was very noticeable when playing games.

- is very outside my experience .. and i have the "lesser" FrankenFire

the kind of instability you describe i got when i switched the Pro with the XT in my slots ... weirdness . .. just not right

and perhaps .. in my fevered condition last night, i thought that maybe the internal bridge interconnect is messed up ... maybe you and Blacklash are reporting the same defective thing

or not

far fetched, i know ... but it sounded reasonable to me late last night


perhaps you could try disabling Cat AI on a game where it is KNOWN to NOT support Crossfire and see if nothing happens as it should.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: apoppin
what a load of nonsense ..

Sorry, if I missed the part where you were giving me a vote of confidence.

Originally posted by: apoppin
i haven't seen any "really" pro AMD graphics conclusions from him since "Real world benchmarking" began .. perhaps "lip service" to something unimportant or indisputable to give the impression "fair and balanced" ... but then you would not really recognize "anti ATi" as even being what it really is.

:roll:

The last time ATI had a really stellar card, HardOCP gave plenty of credit.

If you are looking for the absolute best gaming performance in today?s games?including Oblivion?there is no question the MSI RX1900XTX will give you want you want.

plus, they gave the MSI X1900XTX their Editor's Choice Gold Award.

http://hardocp.com/article.htm...wxOSwsaGVudGh1c2lhc3Q=

IMO, HardOCP's benching method isn't really good as a stand alone methodology, but it's nice to see someone doing something different. They openly admit that their testing is somewhat subjective, but I can't really ever say that their experiences have been particularly different then my own whenever I've actually owned a card they've reviewed.

 

[apoppin]

The "load of nonsense" referred specifically to your *guess* that my FrankenFire somehow scaled and yours CrossFire did not

That is all .. nothing more .. just a reply to a very specific part of your post

i *thought* my context made it clear .. since it did not to 2 people - i will apologize for giving you ANY 'impression' - whatsoever - that i thought you were lying - or that you skew your conclusions. i do not ... have not .. will not
[hear, see, touch, taste, think no evil, neither]

OK?

DO you miss the good stuff i say about you deliberately? .. or am i that overbearing?


and you say tomato, i say tomahto, you say "subjective", i say "dubious"
edit- i read and enjoy and reply to your posts; it is never "personal" from me, i hope it does not come across that way.

 

[nitromullet]

apoppin: we're cool

I've actually considered that it could be the bridge chip as well... For right now the card is for sale, and I don't want to unpack it to do any further research on it. If I can't get what I'm asking for it, I'll probably keep it and play with it some more. Maybe even add a single HD 3870 to it...

Is there any sort of list of games known to not work with crossfire?

 

[nullpointerus]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: nullpointerus
I'm not knocking AMD's GPUs.

I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to believe that AMD will try to corner the integrated GPU market by tying those good GPUs to a faltering CPU roadmap. If AMD's CPU future were looking bright, things would be different, but it isn't.

As to being vague for "security reasons," I agree that's possible, but how do you know that isn't just (more) BS?

What do YOU think Fusion is?

Isn't Intel also (semi-secretly) working on GPU technology?

Of course you are knocking AMD GPUs
[it was that 2900xt, wasn't it?]

What?

I've made no secret of my dislike for the Catalyst Control Center.

As I told you via PM, I would've kept the HD2900XT if I could've gotten CCC working, but I couldn't, and I also made out well switching to an 8800GTS (heat/power).

Did you not also get frustrated with driver signing and ATITool/ATT?
Did you not end up going back to CCC for GPU tweaking on Vista x64?

.. and you are really *blasting* AMD CPUs

I was "blasting" Phenom, which was a huge disappointment, and B3...well, we'll see about it.

[ .. and right after telling us you had serious problems with "AGP" as a platform]
:roll:

What does that have to do with anything?

Working from memory, I have used the following chips:

-- Intel 286
-- Intel 386 DX 33
-- Cyrix 6x86 P-120
-- AMD K6-2 300 (until I broke it while overclocking )
-- AMD K6-2 450
-- AMD Athlon 950 (slot)
-- Intel P4 2.4c
-- AMD Athlon 64 3000+ (s939)
-- AMD Athlon X2 4200+ (s939)
-- Intel C2D E4400

Four of those rigs were AGP.

As far as AGP chipsets are concerned, I went through:

-- 1 VIA-based board (can't remember model)
-- 3 VIA-based boards (PA-503 because 2 of them died under warranty)
-- 2 ALi-based boards (different computers)
-- 1 AMD-based board (slot A and the chipset was AMD 4- or 5-something, IIRC)
-- 1 Intel board (D865PERL)

(Keep in mind, we split into using 2/3/4 PCs as family members got older and we became more net-aware/-savvy.)

As far as AGP cards were concerned, I had the following (NOT necessarily in order):

-- STB Riva TNT (unstable and finally died)
-- ATI Rage Fury 32 MB (had random driver crashes)
-- ATI Radeon 7500 (OK, but damn slow -- still has my Cyrix 6x86 fan on it BTW)
-- Matrox G550
-- nVidia GeForce 3 Ti 500
-- nVidia GeForce 4 Ti 4200
-- ATI Radeon 9700 Pro

I don't remember which combinations of boards and cards had which problems, but AGP was never 100% stable for me. AGP was a mess. Every company seemed to have different advice about which AGP GART to use, which order to install the various drivers and DirectX. Everyone had different recommended BIOS options. Windows 2000 and XP still BSOD'd occasionally in even my most solid configurations.

PCI-E has its quirks, but it's still heaven by comparison.

At one point, I also got the Creative driver problems with the one VIA board (686B SB ?) where moving the mouse would cause audible buzz/whining noise through the speakers. Damned annoying to fix, yet VIA and Creative sat on the problem for a long time until tech sites complained loud enough. I don't remember how many drivers I downloaded off VIA and Creative's websites, but what a mess! You'll still see people knocking VIA or Creative for this...and other driver/stability problems.

What don't some people understand about being screwed by a company and then being angry about it?

IF AMD *falters* seriously with Phenom, you can write them completely 'OFF' as any kind of major player

Yes, but the opposite isn't necessarily true. IMO a distinction between faltering and treading water wouldn't matter: Fusion requires AMD's CPU future to look bright. I see nothing positive, at the moment. I'm not saying this couldn't change substantially in six months.

The best you can hope for in that scenario is they will spin off ATi as they go under .. NVIDIA will be waiting with a huge bucket of cash trying to pick up pieces of the x86 license as they fall from the breaking-up company

Yep, consumers gain nothing if one company has a monopoly on discrete GPUs.

If AMD broke up, and ATi survived, I wonder whether Intel would pick up ATi. Intel would get rock-bottom pricing on ATi, a solid presence in an existing and profitable market (discrete GPUs), a decent brand, good products, and some nice leverage over nVidia to boot. It's not like Intel has manufacturing problems. Eh, wild speculation at best, though.

there are two possibilities in my assessment

1) Fusion is "smoke and mirrors" .. to keep their investors distracted while they "think of something". Remember back to after i started a very CONTROVERSIAL thread that basically said Hector Ruiz was not telling the truth about the endless delays, respins, canceled launches and PR Bullshit about "waiting for the r600 family" ?

Well, he responded - i guess many of their [now former] fans were asking the same questions - in that interview as published in AT's article about it .... and i appreciated that he was more candid ... but you can still see he is still holding a LOT back

2) Fusion is real. The vision of AMD to have much more integration of CPU-GPU and especially the ability to "modularize" it ... to 'plug in' HW parts that target what the end user wants without "overkill" for what is not needed.

It IS possible, but I'm not seeing anything concrete. Everybody and their Aunt Agnes has visions about what would be great and fundamentally change the future of computing, but even the ones that actually seem feasible under scrutiny sometimes end up as miserable failures. People are always heralding something. I need to believe in something concrete.

YOU want ME to say?

ha hah ha!

So...you don't really know what Fusion is, either?


:Q

Does anyone here on ATF know what it is?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nitromullet
apoppin: we're cool

I've actually considered that it could be the bridge chip as well... For right now the card is for sale, and I don't want to unpack it to do any further research on it. If I can't get what I'm asking for it, I'll probably keep it and play with it some more. Maybe even add a single HD 3870 to it...

Is there any sort of list of games known to not work with crossfire?

thanks

games that don't work with CrossFire .. letsee .. hmm

ANY brand-new release?
-- or so i am told



sorry ... i just did a google search and it is VERY inconsistent
-maybe i am just *lucky*
:Q

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nullpointerus

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: nullpointerus
I'm not knocking AMD's GPUs.

I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to believe that AMD will try to corner the integrated GPU market by tying those good GPUs to a faltering CPU roadmap. If AMD's CPU future were looking bright, things would be different, but it isn't.

As to being vague for "security reasons," I agree that's possible, but how do you know that isn't just (more) BS?

What do YOU think Fusion is?

Isn't Intel also (semi-secretly) working on GPU technology?

Of course you are knocking AMD GPUs
[it was that 2900xt, wasn't it?]

What?

I've made no secret of my dislike for the Catalyst Control Center.

As I told you via PM, I would've kept the HD2900XT if I could've gotten CCC working, but I couldn't, and I also made out well switching to an 8800GTS (heat/power).

Did you not also get frustrated with driver signing and ATITool/ATT?
Did you not end up going back to CCC for GPU tweaking on Vista x64?

.. and you are really *blasting* AMD CPUs

I was "blasting" Phenom, which was a huge disappointment, and B3...well, we'll see about it.

[ .. and right after telling us you had serious problems with "AGP" as a platform]
:roll:

What does that have to do with anything?

Working from memory, I have used the following chips:

-- Intel 286
-- Intel 386 DX 33
-- Cyrix 6x86 P-120
-- AMD K6-2 300 (until I broke it while overclocking )
-- AMD K6-2 450
-- AMD Athlon 950 (slot)
-- Intel P4 2.4c
-- AMD Athlon 64 3000+ (s939)
-- AMD Athlon X2 4200+ (s939)
-- Intel C2D E4400

Four of those rigs were AGP.

As far as AGP chipsets are concerned, I went through:

-- 1 VIA-based board (can't remember model)
-- 3 VIA-based boards (PA-503 because 2 of them died under warranty)
-- 2 ALi-based boards (different computers)
-- 1 AMD-based board (slot A and the chipset was AMD 4- or 5-something, IIRC)
-- 1 Intel board (D865PERL)

(Keep in mind, we split into using 2/3/4 PCs as family members got older and we became more net-aware/-savvy.)

As far as AGP cards were concerned, I had the following (NOT necessarily in order):

-- STB Riva TNT (unstable and finally died)
-- ATI Rage Fury 32 MB (had random driver crashes)
-- ATI Radeon 7500 (OK, but damn slow -- still has my Cyrix 6x86 fan on it BTW)
-- Matrox G550
-- nVidia GeForce 3 Ti 500
-- nVidia GeForce 4 Ti 4200
-- ATI Radeon 9700 Pro

I don't remember which combinations of boards and cards had which problems, but AGP was never 100% stable for me. AGP was a mess. Every company seemed to have different advice about which AGP GART to use, which order to install the various drivers and DirectX. Everyone had different recommended BIOS options. Windows 2000 and XP still BSOD'd occasionally in even my most solid configurations.

PCI-E has its quirks, but it's still heaven by comparison.

At one point, I also got the Creative driver problems with the one VIA board (686B SB ?) where moving the mouse would cause audible buzz/whining noise through the speakers. Damned annoying to fix, yet VIA and Creative sat on the problem for a long time until tech sites complained loud enough. I don't remember how many drivers I downloaded off VIA and Creative's websites, but what a mess! You'll still see people knocking VIA or Creative for this...and other driver/stability problems.

What don't some people understand about being screwed by a company and then being angry about it?

IF AMD *falters* seriously with Phenom, you can write them completely 'OFF' as any kind of major player

Yes, but the opposite isn't necessarily true. IMO a distinction between faltering and treading water wouldn't matter: Fusion requires AMD's CPU future to look bright. I see nothing positive, at the moment. I'm not saying this couldn't change substantially in six months.

The best you can hope for in that scenario is they will spin off ATi as they go under .. NVIDIA will be waiting with a huge bucket of cash trying to pick up pieces of the x86 license as they fall from the breaking-up company

Yep, consumers gain nothing if one company has a monopoly on discrete GPUs.

If AMD broke up, and ATi survived, I wonder whether Intel would pick up ATi. Intel would get rock-bottom pricing on ATi, a solid presence in an existing and profitable market (discrete GPUs), a decent brand, good products, and some nice leverage over nVidia to boot. It's not like Intel has manufacturing problems. Eh, wild speculation at best, though.

there are two possibilities in my assessment

1) Fusion is "smoke and mirrors" .. to keep their investors distracted while they "think of something". Remember back to after i started a very CONTROVERSIAL thread that basically said Hector Ruiz was not telling the truth about the endless delays, respins, canceled launches and PR Bullshit about "waiting for the r600 family" ?

Well, he responded - i guess many of their [now former] fans were asking the same questions - in that interview as published in AT's article about it .... and i appreciated that he was more candid ... but you can still see he is still holding a LOT back

2) Fusion is real. The vision of AMD to have much more integration of CPU-GPU and especially the ability to "modularize" it ... to 'plug in' HW parts that target what the end user wants without "overkill" for what is not needed.

It IS possible, but I'm not seeing anything concrete. Everybody and their Aunt Agnes has visions about what would be great and fundamentally change the future of computing, but even the ones that actually seem feasible under scrutiny sometimes end up as miserable failures. People are always heralding something. I need to believe in something concrete.

YOU want ME to say?

ha hah ha!

So...you don't really know what Fusion is, either?


:Q

Does anyone here on ATF know what it is?

Well you ARE knocking AMD .. but no biggie .. i do it more than you do and many here consider me a "fan"

you told *everyone* about CCC not working properly on your rig ... i also HATED ccc with a passion UNTIL Cat 8.2 ... i said nvidia's solution was SUPERIOR until then. i know - i had an 8800GTS with nView and it was WORLD's BETTER than CCC [i forget what i named it - CrapConfusionControl, or something like that] - i used it when i had to and detested my forgetful dual-monitor setup. :|


we know what AMD *told* us fusion is .. do i believe them?
-well, do you?

Does it matter what we believe?


as to you experiences with AGP, i only had very stable intel chipsets .. in fact i had my ABit IC7 for FOUR years .. AGP was solid while i switched components in and out .. it looks like you had a few budget MBs and a few with some "issues"

 

[nullpointerus]

My AGP "issues" were common enough...

I'm not knocking the HD2900XT, just the CCC, that's all I wanted to clarify with my questioning about your experiences with CCC.

But that's all off-topic...

Well, I suppose Fusion is off-topic, too. I wouldn't count Fusion = modularity as being very concrete, when there's no discussion of what modularity can accomplish, in terms of specific cost/feature benefits for end users.

An effective CEO could probably sell sliced bread as being the next thing since sliced bread, and people would still champion it.

The problem is that, when all the (unwitting) champions have their own completely different and conflicting ideas of what the CEO was selling, action is being taken and hopes are being raised for no legitimate reason.

*shrugs*

Do I believe in Fusion?

Fusion could be great. Or it could be a smoke screen. Or even a complete flop.

I'd *like* to believe that Fusion is purely a significantly better manufacturing/packaging strategy -- not a computing revolution -- and will have little to no impact on end users other than the usual benefits of a healthy, competitive AMD given that Intel's Core 2 line is doing well.

But, as a general rule, I don't believe *either way* until I have some reason to believe one way or the other.


Wait... what thread are we posting in...?

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: nitromullet
apoppin: we're cool

I've actually considered that it could be the bridge chip as well... For right now the card is for sale, and I don't want to unpack it to do any further research on it. If I can't get what I'm asking for it, I'll probably keep it and play with it some more. Maybe even add a single HD 3870 to it...

Is there any sort of list of games known to not work with crossfire?

thanks

games that don't work with CrossFire .. letsee .. hmm

ANY brand-new release?
-- or so i am told



sorry ... i just did a google search and it is VERY inconsistent
-maybe i am just *lucky*
:Q

yeah, some thing tells me there isn't a master list posted on http://game.amd.com

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: apoppin
i am hoping [and a' prayin' :music:] that GX2 is not "really" $600 as i would LOVE to test it against my own FrankenFire

I think you're in for some bad news... I went to the local Frys here in Seattle, and they had a price tag on the shelf for a BFGTech 9800 GX2 for $679.99. Obviously, they didn't have any actual cards, or I'd be linking to pics on imageshack right now of my new GX2. I actually did a double take when I saw the tag on the shelf as I was tad bit surprised to see.

...Of course, that is a brick and mortar price, so chances are newegg will be cheaper. I wouldn't bank on much less than $600 though.

 

[apoppin]

thanks ... i think i have a possible big car repair bill coming up
.. i can fix the igniter myself but i don't want to tackle a timing belt with my injury ... so that is about $650 for everything car related including the $100 gouge-towing that already went on the credit card [tow companies won't take anything but CC or cash] .. [oops] make that $750-$800 .. i am renting a car Monday

So i just saved some money now with your 'good' news.
- i don't *need* to upgrade .. no one with GTX performance at 16x10 does ... i guess i will wait for a "cheaper alternative" in r700

i can afford to wait .. or you could say i can't afford to upgrade .. EITHER way, i am eschewing GX2 .. someday i *know* i will get my grubby hands on my very own SLi setup instead of this "half ass" solution [sorry, i think of 3870x2 the same way] ... sometimes good things come to those that wait ... and someday i may be impressed enough by a nForce chipset to actually buy one ... or maybe Skulltrail will have both options for me but that appears to be pricey; i am going for Penryn next

imho, NVIDIA is out of touch with reality - sure they will sell them on their "name" alone ... but i would not want to link my name with apparent gouging "because we're NVIDIA and we can - suck it up or settle for crap-AMD"

 

[lopri]

That is sad to hear the X2 isn't up to the reputation. Impressed by 3850's performance I was seriously considering my first CrossFire on my BadAxe 2..

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: lopri
That is sad to hear the X2 isn't up to the reputation. Impressed by 3850's performance I was seriously considering my first CrossFire on my BadAxe 2..

i don't hate it .. i am just not that impressed personally - well, not "personally" but by some disturbing reports ... what is it, $480?
-i see it being a really good value when GX2 spanks it thoroughly and it drops a bit more in price

what it appears to me to be "for" - actually both "X2 solutions" - is [besides a cheap and dirty way for both AMD and NVIDIA to make 'easy' money] for users to experiment with the respective Multi-GPU solutions without actually having to buy an [expensive] Crossfire or Sli MB solution.

it appears to me that the actually "Crossfire" or "SLi" is much better than these "compromise" chips ... it appears you pay a "premium" for the penalty for not have the "right" MB .. like you do for AGP over the same thing PCIe

not for me

definitely for someone else


and i guess if you are talking your current 3850 + 3870x2 .. that might be a bit of fun ... but *personally* i'd rather have 2x3870 than 3870x2 or 2x8800
- especially 8800s for $250x2 than GX2 at 1x $650

 

[Margalus]

Originally posted by: nullpointerus


Working from memory, I have used the following chips:

-- Intel 286
-- Intel 386 DX 33
-- Cyrix 6x86 P-120
-- AMD K6-2 300 (until I broke it while overclocking )
-- AMD K6-2 450
-- AMD Athlon 950 (slot)
-- Intel P4 2.4c
-- AMD Athlon 64 3000+ (s939)
-- AMD Athlon X2 4200+ (s939)
-- Intel C2D E4400

Four of those rigs were AGP.

As far as AGP chipsets are concerned, I went through:

-- 1 VIA-based board (can't remember model)
-- 3 VIA-based boards (PA-503 because 2 of them died under warranty)
-- 2 ALi-based boards (different computers)
-- 1 AMD-based board (slot A and the chipset was AMD 4- or 5-something, IIRC)
-- 1 Intel board (D865PERL)

(Keep in mind, we split into using 2/3/4 PCs as family members got older and we became more net-aware/-savvy.)

As far as AGP cards were concerned, I had the following (NOT necessarily in order):

-- STB Riva TNT (unstable and finally died)
-- ATI Rage Fury 32 MB (had random driver crashes)
-- ATI Radeon 7500 (OK, but damn slow -- still has my Cyrix 6x86 fan on it BTW)
-- Matrox G550
-- nVidia GeForce 3 Ti 500
-- nVidia GeForce 4 Ti 4200
-- ATI Radeon 9700 Pro

I don't remember which combinations of boards and cards had which problems, but AGP was never 100% stable for me. AGP was a mess. Every company seemed to have different advice about which AGP GART to use, which order to install the various drivers and DirectX. Everyone had different recommended BIOS options. Windows 2000 and XP still BSOD'd occasionally in even my most solid configurations.

PCI-E has its quirks, but it's still heaven by comparison.

Does anyone here on ATF know what it is?

Sorry, if you had problems with all those systems they were do to some other issue than the graphics card format being agp. Maybe you are just one of those people that has nothing but bad luck with computers?

below are the agp systems I had that I can recall.

agp motherboards:
asus p2b /p2-300@375
abit bh-6 /p2-333@500
asus p3v4x /p3-600@800
asus cusl-2 /p3-1000@1100
abit kr7a /xp1800@1627
asus p4p-800E i865 /p4 2.8C @ 3.4
asus p4c-800E i875 /p4 3.2EE@3.6

agp cards:
matrox millium g200
gf3 ti-200
3dfx voodoo 5 5500
radeon 9700pro
nv 5900 ultra
nv 6800 ultra
radeon x1950 pro

I didn't list video cards with motherboards because I swapped cards back and forth between systems, so most of those cards were in most of those systems at one time or another. I still have all of those parts, with most still running.

I had 1 gart problem with the abit kr7a/9700 pro combo. But that was via's fault and they released an updated motherboard driver that fixed it. Never had a single problem with any of the others, and no problems with the kr7a after the update.

Once again, if you had issues it was not due to there being any flaw in the AGP format. It would be due to bad drivers, defective hardware, or some other conflict. AGP was a perfectly good format and worked just like it should.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: Blacklash
My first question would be does the GX2 work properly in titles where the X2 does not?

The problem with Crossfire, including on board Crossfire on the X2, is in some games it causes a horrid performance hit that yields performance far less than a single card. Titles I am aware of this occurs in; SupCom, Gothic 3, NWN2, Need for Speed: Pro Street, WiC on the DX10 path with AA, Lost Planet: Extreme Condition, Tomb Raider: Legend, Hitman: Blood Money, Hellgate: London, and Jericho with edge smoothing active.

Weren't some of your claims about the games not scaling disproved by Apoppin? I think I remember him saying that Hellgate:London and Lost Planet DO work.

I've seen you bring those up in several threads now and several times Apoppin has responded...why do you continually bring up the same games if some of your claims are NOT true? Do you even have anything XFire right now to test out what you are saying or are you talking from very limited experience?

backlash, please quit trolling. If you have irrefutable PROOF that crossfire doesn't scale in EVERY ONE of those games then please provide it. If not, go back to HOCP.

I don't think he's "trolling" he's just quoting his experience with the card and what has already been noted in the XBit Labs 3870X2 review.

Some of the games have been fixed since then, but that doesn't invalidate XBits or his experience.

I think the fact he had a 3870X2, has 3850CF, and is a daily poster on Rage3d rules him out as a "NVIDIA fanboy".

Crossfire not scaling with some games, and having to wait for profiles, has been well documented in reviews for years. That would be a "downside".

Running multiple monitors and mixing cards, like the nice 3870X2 + 3870 combination, would be "upsides".

People can note drawbacks without necessarily being "trolls", it's necessary for a complete picture.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: nitromullet
apoppin: we're cool

I've actually considered that it could be the bridge chip as well... For right now the card is for sale, and I don't want to unpack it to do any further research on it. If I can't get what I'm asking for it, I'll probably keep it and play with it some more. Maybe even add a single HD 3870 to it...

Is there any sort of list of games known to not work with crossfire?

according to backlash, the only game that works with crossfire is "secret of the silver blades".