9mm vs .45 caliber

[LTC8K6]

winchester ranger 124gr

http://home.att.net/~ltc8k9/P1010020.JPG

 

[yh125d]

Most 9mm NATO loads carry more energy than most .45 ACP cartridges. I'd definitely rather have a 15 shot P89 than a 7 shot .45 ...

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: kage69
A great home protection load would be the Blue Dots from Glaser. Most impressive! Won't go through dry wall at an angle, but the terminal effects on jugs of water are literally explosive!

Humans are not jugs of water.

And first you recommend slow, heavy bullets but you go on to recommend the Glaser slugs which are high-velocity, lightweight bullets, which is it? If drywall can stop them, a couple layers of denim will seriously ameliorate the impact against humans. Not only that, but they tend not to have enough recoil to reliably cycle semiautomatic firearms.

ZV

 

[yh125d]

And yeah the design of the cartridge/bullet has alot to do with it. .22LR is weak but will still go through 3 (or is it 4? Can't remember) 2x4's and back out the far side

 

[KillerCharlie]

Okay, this is a weird question, but are there any pistols that successfully use a 1911-type frame in 9mm? I just shoot for fun and LOVE the feel of a 1911 in the hand. All the other 9mm pistols I've tried feel like the trigger is too close to my hand and that the back of the grip doesn't go back far enough. I've tried glock, p226, and springfield XD, and S&W M&P (which felt the best).

 

[LTC8K6]

Most 9mm NATO loads carry more energy than most .45 ACP cartridges. I'd definitely rather have a 15 shot P89 than a 7 shot .45 ...

I don't think you'd have any trouble getting good 45 acp ammo.

Why not a 14 shot .45 like an Xd?

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: kage69
A great home protection load would be the Blue Dots from Glaser. Most impressive! Won't go through dry wall at an angle, but the terminal effects on jugs of water are literally explosive!

Humans are not jugs of water.

And first you recommend slow, heavy bullets but you go on to recommend the Glaser slugs which are high-velocity, lightweight bullets, which is it? If drywall can stop them, a couple layers of denim will seriously ameliorate the impact against humans. Not only that, but they tend not to have enough recoil to reliably cycle semiautomatic firearms.

ZV

Yeah, fuck that. I'm not gonna put my neighbors into extra harm by keeping my M1 next to the bed, but I aint using low power rounds either.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: KillerCharlie
Okay, this is a weird question, but are there any pistols that successfully use a 1911-type frame in 9mm? I just shoot for fun and LOVE the feel of a 1911 in the hand. All the other 9mm pistols I've tried feel like the trigger is too close to my hand and that the back of the grip doesn't go back far enough. I've tried glock, p226, and springfield XD, and S&W M&P (which felt the best).

There are plenty of 1911 variants in 9mm

I haven't read about any lately, but they're probably just as reliable.

 

[everman]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

 

[LTC8K6]

Yeah, 1911's in 9mm are available. Springfield makes one as do others.

How about a Hi-Power 9mm?

http://www.fnherstal.com/index...gorySelector=5&detail=

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Triumph
Instant incapacitation is caused by severing the nervous system. People's opinions are swayed by the movies, they think a 45ACP will throw someone through a plate glass window while a 9mm will bounce off of their jacket. It's all bullshit. People are just like zombies, aim for the brain and they'll go down.

Seconded.

I'm perfectly confident in the ability of my little .380 to do its job as long as I do mine. If a person can handle a failure drill then they're fine with just about any caliber.

ZV

You guys are funny. Okay, big difference between the range and a firefight. In the latter, you don't have target standing in front of you square. It might be at night with poor visibility. One shot maybe all you got if they are shooting back. Or though bushes where these lt cal rounds deflect. Or though barriers like car doors walls or even heavy clothing. Good luck getting a target you can failure drill - usually they call that murder not self defense.

 

[yh125d]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

Most 9mm NATO loads carry more energy than most .45 ACP cartridges. I'd definitely rather have a 15 shot P89 than a 7 shot .45 ...

I don't think you'd have any trouble getting good 45 acp ammo.

Why not a 14 shot .45 like an Xd?

Makes for a pretty tall pistol.


Of course, for defense I'd prefer my Python over just about anything

 

[everman]

I'd rather go with an AR15. With a 16" barrel (or shorter if you want to get the tax stamp for an SBR) it's still maneuverable enough for home-defense. I'd keep a 9mm with +P hollow points on the holster if I had time to put one on (had warning something bad was going down).

I really want a 458 SOCOM upper for the AR, good anti-vehicle...er deer hunting round Actually that round is probably the ultimate if you really want one-shot stopping power for close quarter battle, as that is exactly what it's made for. It will destroy any bad guy it hits.

 

[Kelvrick]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

winchester ranger 124gr

http://home.att.net/~ltc8k9/P1010020.JPG

Actually, no. This one:

http://www.gandrtactical.com/i...24gr%20+%20P%209mm.jpg

I like the sharp edges that form from the winchesters.
http://frag.110mb.com/images/W...T.RA9TA/RA9TA_Comp.jpg

Although the federal hst's are pretty and I use the 147gr when I have a longer barrel like the p226.
http://frag.110mb.com/images/F...P9HST2/P9HST2_Comp.jpg

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: everman
I'd rather go with an AR15. With a 16" barrel (or shorter if you want to get the tax stamp for an SBR) it's still maneuverable enough for home-defense. I'd keep a 9mm with +P hollow points on the holster if I had time to put one on (had warning something bad was going down).

I really want a 458 SOCOM upper for the AR, good anti-vehicle...er deer hunting round Actually that round is probably the ultimate if you really want one-shot stopping power for close quarter battle, as that is exactly what it's made for. It will destroy any bad guy it hits.

Yeah, that's a badass upper. I was looking at the RRA 458's for a while. Not really realistic though unless you're ultra rich or reload.

 

[jacob0401]

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/S...nse_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Triumph
Instant incapacitation is caused by severing the nervous system. People's opinions are swayed by the movies, they think a 45ACP will throw someone through a plate glass window while a 9mm will bounce off of their jacket. It's all bullshit. People are just like zombies, aim for the brain and they'll go down.

Seconded.

I'm perfectly confident in the ability of my little .380 to do its job as long as I do mine. If a person can handle a failure drill then they're fine with just about any caliber.

ZV

You guys are funny. Okay, big difference between the range and a firefight. In the latter, you don't have target standing in front of you square. It might be at night with poor visibility. One shot maybe all you got if they are shooting back. Or though bushes where these lt cal rounds deflect. Or though barriers like car doors walls or even heavy clothing. Good luck getting a target you can failure drill - usually they call that murder not self defense.

If I'm in a firefight, something is massively wrong. If I have the opportunity to run away, you can be damn sure I'm going to do it and if I'd have to be shooting through bushes then chances are I have plenty of opportunity to run.

Two quick shots to the center mass should be enough under most circumstances to slow people down enough for a shot at the head.

And sorry, but just because you can execute a failure drill doesn't mean the target is standing still, you're incredibly foolish if you think that.

ZV

 

[OFFascist]

I like both, but I prefer .45acp for my carry gun, on rare occasions though I will carry my Glock 17.

 

[EricMartello]

I have a 10mm glock auto. It's a great balance between power, velocity and mass. Basically you get a high power, high speed bullet with 120+ gr. Muzzle speeds over 1500 FPS.

Why do you want that? Well if you are in a situation where you actually need to use your gun, you are most likely going to be in an adrenaline rush. You're not going to sit there and aim carefully, so let's hope you spent time at the range to hone your "reactive" skills. Head shots? It's not a video game, and aiming for the head is a bad idea since your chances of hitting it are a lot less than hitting the chest.

A powerful round like the 10mm or hot 45 ACP will knock back attackers and deal a lot of "collateral" damage in the wound. 9mm bullets are cheap but in a life or death situation I'd rather not be worried about spending a few bucks more on my bullets.

For home defense, shotguns > handguns since you can point them in the general direction of the target and still do massive damage. Plus, the buck shot will not penetrate as far thru walls, thus making it safer if you have other people in the house who u may not want to shoot (i.e. your family).

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: EricMartello
I have a 10mm glock auto. It's a great balance between power, velocity and mass. Basically you get a high power, high speed bullet with 120+ gr. Muzzle speeds over 1500 FPS.

Why do you want that? Well if you are in a situation where you actually need to use your gun, you are most likely going to be in an adrenaline rush. You're not going to sit there and aim carefully, so let's hope you spent time at the range to hone your "reactive" skills. Head shots? It's not a video game, and aiming for the head is a bad idea since your chances of hitting it are a lot less than hitting the chest.

A powerful round like the 10mm or hot 45 ACP will knock back attackers and deal a lot of "collateral" damage in the wound. 9mm bullets are cheap but in a life or death situation I'd rather not be worried about spending a few bucks more on my bullets.

For home defense, shotguns > handguns since you can point them in the general direction of the target and still do massive damage. Plus, the buck shot will not penetrate as far thru walls, thus making it safer if you have other people in the house who u may not want to shoot (i.e. your family).

Uh, no. Unless by "general direction" you mean "pointed at the target." In your typical indoors engagement distance, you're not going to have significant spread out of a shotgun.

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: yh125d

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

Most 9mm NATO loads carry more energy than most .45 ACP cartridges. I'd definitely rather have a 15 shot P89 than a 7 shot .45 ...

I don't think you'd have any trouble getting good 45 acp ammo.

Why not a 14 shot .45 like an Xd?

Makes for a pretty tall pistol.


Of course, for defense I'd prefer my Python over just about anything

Actually the SA XD is not very tall at all. It is almost identical to the XD 9mm in size. It just double stacks the bullets which makes for a wide grip.

Honestly, if you need more then a couple shots you are not in a self defense situation, you are in a battlefield or police action. I don't need to worry about taking cover and returning fire, or setting up suppression fire with my friend to take down a hostile force. At worst someone trying to mug me on the street is about as a bad as I can expect in my area, or a home break in smash/grab type situation.

I actually agree that for home defense a shotgun is the way to go. Short, powerful, and easy to wield with minimal training. I've been thinking about picking up a good one.

The biggest crimes around here are the smash and grabs. In my area 3 or 4 homes have been robbed while people were sleeping. They smash a window in the garage and enter though the unlocked door from the garage to the house. Then they take items and leave. I secure the home by locking the door from the house to the garage (keycode lock that I want to replace with a keyfob lock) and by having noisy pets. The pets sleep in our room and when anyone enters the property they run downstairs and make noise. That is sufficient time to open my nightstand and pull out my 9mm or even run to my closet and grab a rifle. Then it's just a matter of sneaking down the stairs and putting a few rounds into the first person I see.

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: Kroze
I know this debate has been debated since the dark age but this is not what the thread is really about.

A lot of people laugh at the fact that a 9mm is a joke and you'll need to put 20 rounds into someone before they'll "feel" anything or drop to the ground due to adrenaline. There has been numerous videos of people getting shot multiple times with a 9mm and didn't die. That's why everyone said you're best to get the .45 for any hand gun.

But the real question is...does anyone have real solid proof/actual videos of being shot with a .45 will stop someone in their track?

Anyone have videos of someone being shot with a .45 multiple times and still high on adrenaline & fighting?

Yur right. Its a huge debate.

I dont think there is any conclusive evidence than a 45 will absolutely, positively kill someone when you need it to.
I do know that many tests have shown it to be more damaging and lethal than a 9mm.

If you were risking your life on the odds, you would probably go with the 45 over the 9mm.

The accuracy argument is moot. Despite what Hollywood wants you to believe, most pistol shootouts do not take place on opposite sides of a huge warehouse or down a long street.
And if you plan on using a gun at all you should spend plenty of time at a range with a personal trainer.

Dont wait until you get jumped to start figuring out how the thing works or practice your aiming.

 

[gorobei]

Originally posted by: Triumph
Instant incapacitation is caused by severing the nervous system. People's opinions are swayed by the movies, they think a 45ACP will throw someone through a plate glass window while a 9mm will bounce off of their jacket. It's all bullshit. People are just like zombies, aim for the brain and they'll go down.

uh, no.
bullets don't sever nervous systems. the kinetic energy of the round hitting tissue and transferring that energy to the surrounding tissue creates an overpressure wave in the tissue which triggers a massive response in the pain receptors. the massive and simultaneous input overloads the brain causing the "instant" incapacitation. it is a temporary effect that can be affected by sympathetic nervous response/compensation.


the primary issue with any modern JHP is whether the round can be relied upon to expand to a large profile upon impact with tissue. winter clothing, body armor, misc variables all affect the reliability. 9mm and other 1200+ fps JHP rounds are relying on the speed of the spin(or angular momentum) to generate the pressure wave. without expansion of the hollow tip the round wont cavitate and transfer that component of the the rounds KE. clogged 9mm hollow points behave just like FMJ ball.

Larger caliber rounds like the .45 are said to be less dependent on expansion/cavitation since the diameter to bullet length ratios are closer and less likely to push tissue aside. it's analogous to being impaled with a knitting needle versus a piece of rebar.

the majority of the 45 one shot stops are anecdotal and come mostly from soldiers in Iraq. forums are rife with stories about a single 45 dropping people and 9mils taking half a magazine. however, as mentioned previously they are required to use FMJ ball ammo.

as far as the debate goes, even a .22 rimfire can kill. the main issue is stress accuracy, clothing penetration, target neurophysiology aside; what type of round will maximize your chances of incapacitation in a obvious enough way that you dont feel the need to empty your mag waiting for the target to drop? YMMV

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: shortylickens

Originally posted by: Kroze
I know this debate has been debated since the dark age but this is not what the thread is really about.

A lot of people laugh at the fact that a 9mm is a joke and you'll need to put 20 rounds into someone before they'll "feel" anything or drop to the ground due to adrenaline. There has been numerous videos of people getting shot multiple times with a 9mm and didn't die. That's why everyone said you're best to get the .45 for any hand gun.

But the real question is...does anyone have real solid proof/actual videos of being shot with a .45 will stop someone in their track?

Anyone have videos of someone being shot with a .45 multiple times and still high on adrenaline & fighting?

Yur right. Its a huge debate.

I dont think there is any conclusive evidence than a 45 will absolutely, positively kill someone when you need it to.
I do know that many tests have shown it to be more damaging and lethal than a 9mm.

If you were risking your life on the odds, you would probably go with the 45 over the 9mm.

The accuracy argument is moot. Despite what Hollywood wants you to believe, most pistol shootouts do not take place on opposite sides of a huge warehouse or down a long street.
And if you plan on using a gun at all you should spend plenty of time at a range with a personal trainer.

Dont wait until you get jumped to start figuring out how the thing works or practice your aiming.

There isn't any, because it won't always.

However, I'm quite comfortable sending a near-half-inch of lead downrange every time I pull the trigger..it should do the trick.

 

[sourceninja]

Oh, that reminds me, I forgot about this. Great read on the subject. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/S...nse_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm