A 70% tax on income above $10 million; what do we think of this idea?

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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I don't think I need to explain why the idea of a 70% marginal tax rate on income above $10 million a year has come up, so I'll post an article about some research on the issue below and instead skip directly to discussion.

Here are my thoughts on the idea; please feel free to quote and poke holes in them:
  • There is fairly strong consensus amongst economists that the idea taxation scheme for government is relatively high income taxes and relatively low corporate taxes. I encourage you to read the linked study - it's awesome - but basically the reason for this is simple: Corporations can more easily artificially move where they're located to lower-taxed communities. A high net-worth individual could move to the Bermuda, Monaco or the UAE... but theoretically it's hard to replicate the lifestyle in Canada or the United States and fewer would do this than you'd think. So the argument that these individuals would just move is likely not correct.
  • I think that wide disparities in wealth in a society is necessarily bad for that society. Put another way, generally speaking, all citizens who make between $50,000 and $10,000,000 in income a year have the same macro-level wants and needs from their community. They want the roads to be reasonably well maintained in their area. They want public parks for their kids to play in and access to good local healthcare and mostly send their kids to public schools. They vote for people who will take care of local and state-level concerns. The wants and need of someone making $100,000,000 a year, however, are probably quite different. They're not bad people just because they're making a lot of money, but their concerns aren't local; and if they are, they tend to be autocratic because they can put serious money behind a candidate or idea. The need to work with others in your community is dramatically lessened.
  • It would mean a significant investment into an area of dire need: Under Ocasio-Cortez's model, the money would be primarily sent towards revamping industries that drive carbon emissions. Ultimately we all need the planet to not get caught into a forever-warming cycle that ends up destroying most of the flora and fauna that exist today and leads to enormous population migration.
What do you folks think?

Vox - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is floating a 70 percent top tax rate — here’s the research that backs her up
In an interview that aired Sunday on 60 Minutes, America’s most widely covered new House member Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY) floated the idea of a top marginal income tax rate as high as 70 percent as part of a plan to finance a “Green New Deal” that would aim to drastically curb America’s carbon dioxide emissions.​
This is not a formal policy proposal. Indeed, the whole idea of offsetting the budgetary cost of decarbonization with taxes is somewhat at odds with the main currents of thought in the Green New Deal universe, which lean more toward the idea that deficits don’t matter and the costs shouldn’t be paid for at all.​
...​
Historically, the United States used to have many more tax brackets, and the top marginal tax rates were extremely high. Under Eisenhower, the top earners paid a 91 percent marginal rate, falling to Ocasio-Cortez’s proposed 70 percent under Kennedy and Johnson, before falling to 50 percent after Ronald Reagan’s first big tax cut, and then down to 38 percent after the 1986 tax reform.​
...​
MIT’s Peter Diamond and Berkeley’s Emmanuel Saez relaunched this debate with a landmark 2012 paper that argued for a 73 percent top income tax rate in the United States.​
This conclusion relies on two subsidiary points. One is the notion that for the very rich, the subjective value of an extra dollar is essentially $0. In other words, while a poor person’s life may get a lot better if he gets a little bit of extra money, someone like Mark Zuckerberg isn’t going to care at all.​
It follows that regardless of how much money we think the government should spend, we should be squeezing the richest people as much as possible to keep taxes lower on the less wealthy who will miss the money more. They then do empirical calculations that lead them to estimate that a rate of 73 percent or so would maximize revenue — higher than that and taxation becomes counterproductive because people work less.​
In a separate paper that Saez wrote with Thomas Piketty and Stefanie Stantcheva, the authors argue for an even higher rate on somewhat different grounds.​
Their argument is that, empirically, CEO pay and pretax inequality is higher in countries with lower top marginal tax rates. In lower tax countries, they believe, CEOs work really hard to maximize their own pay whereas in higher tax countries they accept lesser compensation, which leaves more money left over for other people.​
An even more aggressive 2016 paper from Benjamin Lockwood, Charles Nathanson, and Glen Weyl argues that confiscatory taxation would be good for the economy because it would discourage talented people from entering lucrative lines of work. In a world of low taxes, they show, talented people have strong incentives to work in legal or financial professions rather than be teachers or research scientists. But the social reward to having really good traders or corporate lawyers is either low or negative, whereas the social reward to having excellent teachers and scientists is high.​
So while Ocasio-Cortez’s proposal is certainly extreme relative to the policy status quo — and unquestionably something many economists would denounce as economically ruinous — it’s actually moderate compared to what Saez, Piketty, and Stantcheva, or Lockwood, Nathanson, and Weyl call for since she’s sticking with the “mere” goal of raising revenue.​
 
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Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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A 70% tax on income above $10 million; what do we think of this idea?

When the government spends that money they will look for new sources of income. Then the limit will be dropped to 1 million, then to $100,000 a year... etc until the government hits the middle class.

Thus is the result of democracy, the many taking from the few.

We already have too many taxes. If anything certain taxes need to be abolished.
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
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When the government spends that money they will look for new sources of income. Then the limit will be dropped to 1 million, then to $100,000 a year... etc until the government hits the middle class.

Thus is the result of democracy, the many taking from the few.

We already have too many taxes. If anything certain taxes need to be abolished.

Yes except you have your head in your MAGA hat making you blind.

Middle Class and working poor are paying more now than we did under Obama (12% vs 10%) while Trump and billionaires are paying zero.. zilch.. nada.
 
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feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
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When the government spends that money they will look for new sources of income. Then the limit will be dropped to 1 million, then to $100,000 a year... etc until the government hits the middle class.

Thus is the result of democracy, the many taking from the few.

We already have too many taxes. If anything certain taxes need to be abolished.


Yes, perhaps if you were taxed less you could afford to buy a clue.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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When the government spends that money they will look for new sources of income. Then the limit will be dropped to 1 million, then to $100,000 a year... etc until the government hits the middle class.

Thus is the result of democracy, the many taking from the few.

We already have too many taxes. If anything certain taxes need to be abolished.

Hitting the bottle early? we need to do a better job of preventing the few taking so much from the many while putting so little back in. We've done a piss poor job of it from Reagan forward.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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Hitting the bottle early? we need to do a better job of preventing the few taking so much from the many while putting so little back in. We've done a piss poor job of it from Reagan forward.

If you want to tax people at a high rate, then you go first.

Unless you are willing to make the sacrifices you ask of others, then do not ask.
 
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yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
When the government spends that money they will look for new sources of income. Then the limit will be dropped to 1 million, then to $100,000 a year... etc until the government hits the middle class.

Thus is the result of democracy, the many taking from the few.

We already have too many taxes. If anything certain taxes need to be abolished.
I think that you've raised two concerns here: That the money be well-spent by the government that is getting these new revenues, and that this not turn into the first step of a communal system where a few people collect the income of virtually everyone.

The first concern is entirely valid in my opinion: These new funds shouldn't get funneled directly into the Pentagon to spend on bombs to drop in the middle of the ocean or something. If you're going to get a windfall, do it for something that benefits all of the people. A Green New Deal to shift carbon emissions is that cause for me.

The second concern collapses under scrutiny - piss off 90% of the people and they're going to come for your head. The idea that you'd end up with a Supreme Soviet in the United States who wield the power and wealth of the entire rest of the the country... it didn't work so well in Russia. It's not gonna come back to life in America in 2019.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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I'm for the current tax structure minus all the loop holes the wealthy abuse.
The biggest break for the investor class isn't loopholes but a LTCG rate that tops out at 20%. It's particularly generous to hedge fund managers since it applies as carried interest to their usual 2+20% cut off the top. They get to claim the rewards of other people's risk as their own.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,417
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That is not very nice.

I favor less government and less taxation across the board.

If you want to tax people at 70%, then you go first. Set the example.

As usual the MAGA guy doesn't know his own country's history.

Read Eisenhower's tax code.. 90% on 200k or more.

And that was the best time in American society.. the middle class flourished and America invested in infrastructure that we all use to this day..

The Interstate System.

It was undone by Reagan and the middle class has struggled ever since while Millionaires and Billionaires got richer and richer.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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As usual the MAGA guy doesn't know his own country's history.

Read Eisenhower's tax code.. 90% on 200k or more.

Are you willing to pay 90% of your income to taxes? If not, then do not cast that burden upon others.

It is easy to vote for something when it does not affect you. Thus is democracy.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
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If you want to tax people at a high rate, then you go first.

Unless you are willing to make the sacrifices you ask of others, then do not ask.

Like I said, anytime I make more than $10M/yr I'll gladly pay 70% taxes on the overage. There was a time long ago when it was considered patriotic to be able to pay big taxes on big money to support the society that enabled such magnificent financial success.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,417
7,051
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Are you willing to pay 90% of your income to taxes? If not, then do not cast that burden upon others.

It is easy to vote for something when it does not affect you. Thus is democracy.

Sure I'll pay 90% if I had a billion. Since I'll still have 100 million left after that. More than enough to live on and pass on to my heirs.

Simple fucking math.
 
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Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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Like I said, anytime I make more than $10M/yr I'll gladly pay 70% taxes on the overage. There was a time long ago when it was considered patriotic to be able to pay big taxes on big money to support the society that enabled such magnificent financial success.

Sure I'll pay 90% if I had a billion. Since I'll still have 100 million left after that. More than enough to live on and pass on to my heirs.
Simple fucking math.

No "IF" games.

You want someone to pay 70% tax, you go first.
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,417
7,051
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No "IF" games.

You want someone to pay 70% tax, you go first.

People have already have paid 70% before Reagan. LOL!

Where were you then?

Didn't complain then but complaining now?
 
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fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
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Are you willing to pay 90% of your income to taxes? If not, then do not cast that burden upon others.

It is easy to vote for something when it does not affect you. Thus is democracy.
A. You do realize that 90% is the marginal tax rate, right? You do know how marginal tax rates work, right?
B. You do realize that 200K in 1961 is equivalent to $1,700,000 today? 99.9 percent of people wouldn't be affected by tax rate like that.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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Sure I'll pay 90% if I had a billion. Since I'll still have 100 million left after that. More than enough to live on and pass on to my heirs.

Simple fucking math.

Not only that, but that'd be if you made a billion in a year. If you slowly grew to a billionaire you wouldn't be taxed out of $900million a year.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
Just as soon as I make more than $10M in one year. I already pay higher taxes than people who earn less & have no complaints about doing it.

A. You do realize that 90% is the marginal tax rate, right? You do know how marginal tax rates work, right?
B. You do realize that 200K in 1961 is equivalent to $1,700,000 today? 99.9 percent of people wouldn't be affected by tax rate like that.

In other words, you are not willing to stand up for minority groups?

As long as it benefits you, you are willing to throw any group under the bus?
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,271
323
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I support the concept of raising marginal rates, but I think it really depends on execution. 70% given the current tax laws might be too high. You have to recall, even when our top tax rate was 94 percent, the effective rate was only 42 percent because there was no AMT at the time, plus there were a ton of more deductions available then.

So a top tax rate of 70% under today's tax laws would effectively be higher than highest nominal rate we've ever seen (94 percent in 1940s). I would think something in the high 50s or low 60s would be more appropriate, unless you also intend to rollback deductions to what was available in the middle of the century.
 
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sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
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ARE YOU KIDDING?
Rich people are cheap asses.
Take Donald Trump....
Trump, a millionaire maybe billionaire, and he never paid his workers.
And as president, thought nothing about stopping pay for government workers.
CHEAP! CHEAP! CHEAP!
SO does anyone really believe congress, solely ran by millionaires and billionaires, would ever allow such a tax like that to pass into law?
FORGET IT!
Long before that, congress and Trump will first figure out how to take away another 5 dollars in food assistance from some single mother and her kid just so Donald Trump and congress can vote themselves another major upper class tax cut.
WHY do we even have these discussions, anyway?
Face facts...
Abortion WILL NEVER be banned. Religious fanatic republican women need their abortions too.
Illegal immigration will never be seriously addressed. Trump and his cronies love a pool boy that they can pay cheap. Under the table. Why screw up a good thing?
And society will never be fairly taxed. The breaks will always go to that top one percent, and the middle class will always take the hits.
So why even have these discussions?
If life were fair we'd still have our unions, a healthy prosperous middle class, fair taxation, and politicians that were held accountable.
Instead we have an extremely wealthy and highly protected upper class, then a struggling lower class previous known as the middle class, and a great gaping void in-between the two.
Seriously....
 
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