A Capitalist Critiques Capitalism

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Dessicant

Member
Nov 8, 2014
88
0
0
Drivel.
I sense that you have become over-excited after reading the first edition of F. A. Hayek's 'Road to Serfdom' but you have neglected to read the far more nuanced introduction to the more balanced 1956 US paperback edition. Few other Americans have read it either, but as Bruce Caldwell (the ultimate expert here) strongly suggests, it adds subtle truths you clearly cannot comprehend.

(Read: The Road to Serfdom, text and documents, ed. Bruce Caldwell, The Definitive Edition. Uni Chicago Press. 2007)

Should you want to do serious research as well as rant, try 'Capital in the 21st century' (2014) by Thomas Piketty. (he is a French economics Prof. but US academics paid for his work to be translated for people like you). The book is Belknap/Harvard, ISBN 978 9674 4300 6. It is on my desk now, should you wish to have an informed debate.
First...

Try a cold shower.

I'll tell you where you are wrong, but I will leave the research to others. My arguments are based on Reason and Reality and do not require cites. You can bias-select all your favorites and make a nice list, but is there any point? No, of course not. It's a waste of server space.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
I didn't watch the talk but I agree with the OP description of the talk.

I agree the OP above challenging the Henry Ford story as raising wages so they could afford to buy the cars. That message would be propaganda.

It doesn't make any economic sense. Ford's customer base was the country. He could hardly make a dent in his sales that way, and it'd be a very expensive way to get each sale - he might as well give them the cars for free as pay them more they then pay back to him for the car. What he would do is help his competitors underprice him.

The explanation about less turnover is what makes sense.

At a societal level it does make sense to have 'workers able to buy products'. On a global level that's hardly the case - Chinese workers making things for the US they can't afford - but we'd like a consumer class in the US. But that is done with broad policies, not company by company.

We're in pretty big trouble. Globalization, growing global equality that is good morally and good for others but will make the US less able to benefit from cheap labor, our move to plutocracy, the loss of our effective democracy as it is taken over by the servants of the wealthy, these so-called trade agreements that cripple elected governments' power to pass laws, and so on.

A Ted talk can be correct, but it doesn't change the policies or forces causing them.

I can point at Byron Dorgon's Senate speech warning de-regulation would cause a banking crash - but it passed and it did.

You guys are thinking about this too much from a bean counter perspective.

Ford at the time was the underdog to the already established ALAM.

There wasn't any internet advertising, or TV advertising. And he needed a way to get his cars out there. And he needed his employees' loyalty/word of mouth.
 
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Rustler

Golden Member
Jan 14, 2004
1,253
1
81
True enough. What we have today is definitely NOT capitalism. It is National Socialism, to the core. When huge corporations get in trouble, the central bank prints trillions to bail them out. They take those trillions and use it to buy back their own stock and give out dividends. All of it was just an offhand way of giving trillions to the richest 1%. Then the ex chairman of the central bank has the gall to say that he did not contribute to wealth inequality!

That is what you get is Post Constutional Republic.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
Capitalism means economic freedom - letting people decide what to do with their own money and resources. It's quite simple.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
6,201
126
Capitalism means economic freedom - letting people decide what to do with their own money and resources. It's quite simple.

I thought it was simply a matter of having a flag. You see a resource you like and you stick a flag in it and claim it. If nobody else with a flag has stuck a flag in it then it's yours. Everything is sorted out by who claims what in the Big Book of Flag Claims maintained by the Department of Flagging Dates.

You may think your answer is so simple, but you completely failed to take into account that what you may have mistaken to be your money and resources are actually mine. It's because of this 'simplification factor' and the economic naiveté it incessantly engenders that we Flag Wielding Folk have written the six-hundred and fifty nine thousand two hundred and eighty one page Holy Book of Fine Print to stop this impulse to assert, in one manner or another, such chaotic simplistic confusion, as you have here, dead in its tracks. The true simple fact is that if you don't have a flag, you don't have shit.

And woe be to you on that day not so far in the future when your bubble bursts and the One True Owner of the One True Flag come to stick it in your heart and claims you.
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
508
1
0
I'll tell you where you are wrong, but I will leave the research to others. My arguments are based on Reason and Reality and do not require cites.

Well come on then...
If you KNOW I am wrong tell me, as you promise (above).

Your 'arguments' are not based on reason and reality at all. You have yet to offer any evidence, you have yet to construct any argument.
So far you have uttered some unfounded rantings, mere snippets of left-over 'Fox News', Donald Trumpesque posturing. Rantings you demand that we must accept at 'face value'. Sorry, no chance of that. I have looked them in the face and see no value in them or their author.

Imagine that you are in an academic research seminar and you tell your professor that you cannot remember what you have read and "in any case it doesn't matter" because truths have been revealed to you and they don't require references to source material.

Not only would that provoke a ripple of laughter at your arrogance, it would probably lead to your professor approaching the Dean to discuss concerns about your mental health and fitness to continue the programme.

Arguments require evidence. No evidence, no argument. Just assertion.

You say that capital is "life creating". Thomas Piketty (2014) says that capital is the cause of inter-generational inequality. He offers 669 pages of evidence.
You offer none.
Who should we trust?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Well come on then...
If you KNOW I am wrong tell me, as you promise (above).

Your 'arguments' are not based on reason and reality at all. You have yet to offer any evidence, you have yet to construct any argument.
So far you have uttered some unfounded rantings, mere snippets of left-over 'Fox News', Donald Trumpesque posturing. Rantings you demand that we must accept at 'face value'. Sorry, no chance of that. I have looked them in the face and see no value in them or their author.

Imagine that you are in an academic research seminar and you tell your professor that you cannot remember what you have read and "in any case it doesn't matter" because truths have been revealed to you and they don't require references to source material.

Not only would that provoke a ripple of laughter at your arrogance, it would probably lead to your professor approaching the Dean to discuss concerns about your mental health and fitness to continue the programme.

Arguments require evidence. No evidence, no argument. Just assertion.

You say that capital is "life creating". Thomas Piketty (2014) says that capital is the cause of inter-generational inequality. He offers 669 pages of evidence.
You offer none.
Who should we trust?

Neither if both arguments sucks.

Piketty looked and things and made correlations. His paper about inequality did not really explain anything. He says things like, "inequality is unsustainable", but when you ask why, he says it is and thats about it.

Here is a great podcast on it where he is interviewed.

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/09/thomas_piketty.html
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
The problem with the standard model of economics is that it is wrong in every one of its assumptions. The solution by economists is to "look at what happens when you 'free' one assumption"; unfortunately assumption violations don't happen in a bubble, so they all inter-act with each other.

Having read Adam Smith, I can assure you that the modern concept of 'free markets' is nothing like what even the most economically-liberal of philosophers envisioned.

Adam Smith's argument for the invisible hand is not a for a magic, God like, being that creates proper economic balance. It is for the local social-network in which people buy and sell things. In his formulation if the producer is doing something that is unconscionable the local community knows about it (because it's all part of a small-ish town) and thus boycotts the product.

In modern global capitalism we work people more harshly than slaves because you had to pay to import and keep-alive slaves. Those who purchase the products know nothing about it and in many cases lawsuits are filed to repress the knowledge when it is reported on. For example, Nike claimed defamation and had this published academic paper retracted because the author wouldn't reveal the sources, as the Vietnam government has a history of imprisoning those that dare tell the truth about the worse-than-slavery conditions.


A more apt statement is global capitalists are slavery creators.


As a side note, I am staunchly in favor of innovation and entrepreneurship.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
Having read Adam Smith, I can assure you that the modern concept of 'free markets' is nothing like what even the most economically-liberal of philosophers envisioned.

That is my problem with anyone that claims to be a 'free market capitalist'. In today's economy there is no possibility of a free market. A free market relies on free flow of readily available information, and not a single 'free market capitalist' I have ever heard of supports such a thing. Nor is such a thing even possible in a world as complex as ours.

You might as well be a magical wish fulfilment economist. The two amount to the same thing.
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
508
1
0
realibrad said:
Piketty looked and things and made correlations. His paper about inequality did not really explain anything.

Have you actually read his book, "Capital in the 21st Century"?

To call a 684 page book a 'paper' is rather dismissive.
Paul Krugman, the Nobel Prize winner in Economics, described Piketty in the New York Times as :
"The world's leading expert on income and wealth inequality".

But hey, what do Nobel Prize winners know, eh?
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
2
81
That is my problem with anyone that claims to be a 'free market capitalist'. In today's economy there is no possibility of a free market. A free market relies on free flow of readily available information, and not a single 'free market capitalist' I have ever heard of supports such a thing. Nor is such a thing even possible in a world as complex as ours.

You might as well be a magical wish fulfilment economist. The two amount to the same thing.


I also hate the term free market.

A genuinely 'free market' would be one in which companies could distort competition through cartels and other rightly-illegal behavior, without fear of government reprisals. We have government intervention into and regulation of 'the market' precisely to combat such (natural?) behaviour of people who run companies.

So, to genuinely believe in free markets, you'd have to want the removal of antitrust legislation. No sane person wants that. Adam Smith certainly wouldn't, were he with is still today
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
We aren't in capitalism. In capitalism AIG, BAC, GM, and a whole host of others would have gone bankrupt.

It just depends on how you define capitalism.

I believe the biggest problem we have is with the finance sector, where "moral hazard" can become destabilizing for an entire economy. "Too big to fail" is just that... you take out the losing and there's no limit to the destructive potential, especially when about 4 entities handle 80% of the country's wealth. Too big to fail is unsustainable and such businesses must divest. I don't see another way to make the losers pay without bringing down the economy.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
It just depends on how you define capitalism.

I believe the biggest problem we have is with the finance sector, where "moral hazard" can become destabilizing for an entire economy. "Too big to fail" is just that... you take out the losing and there's no limit to the destructive potential, especially when about 4 entities handle 80% of the country's wealth. Too big to fail is unsustainable and such businesses must divest. I don't see another way to make the losers pay without bringing down the economy.

How do you force a company that you have already announced is too big to fail to do anything? What do you do if they simply ignore your command to divest? They can tank your economy, and you have already shown that you are willing to completely throw out all concepts of how that economy works in order to preserve that. They have an economic weapon of mass destruction.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,556
2,139
146
I can't escape the impression that Mr. Nick talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk. To hear him speak I am surprised that he hasn't already made a pageant of his own utter divestiture of all material wealth. Perhaps these controversial talks (the OP's link is not to an actual TED talk, which was not officially posted) help with the guilt he must be feeling at this clear act of cowardice and hypocrisy. We all have our own ways of dealing with the immutable fact that life is unfair, but most of us do not end up in a position of power where every uttered banality is lapped up like manna from heaven.
 

mammador

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2010
2,128
1
76
Nick Hanauer, in a Ted Talk.

He does, however, puncture the idea that capitalist are "job creators."

He says, "When business people take credit for creating jobs, it's like squirrels taking credit for evolution."

But don't let that sound bite, click bait type quote turn you off. Nanauer makes a deeply persuasive case, in a highly technical way, that it's consumer demand that creates jobs, and that when you eviscerate the middle class, you eviscerate that demand, in a vicious, downward cycle.

I agree.

This is exactly why Henry Ford unilaterally decided to pay his workers the then exorbitant sum of $5 a day . . . so they could afford the product he was producing!

If you've got the time, listen to all, or at least most, of his hour plus talk.

and it takes firms to acknowledge consumer demand. People willing to buy cars in itself won't make jobs. He's being needlessly pedantic.
 
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