A Career In Computer Programming

[mjd]

Hi Canny,
Great question. I've been interviewing people like you for a long, long time and the answer is it depends. But, the most important qualities of successful candidates are that they are passionate and constantly want to learn. So, go out there and learn Java or VB. And then go learn more by starting your own extra-curricular project.
Go make an Iphone or Android game or write a web site or whatever project you want that is fun for you.

If these types of things are fun for you, doors will open for the rest of your life in whichever field you are a learner.

Don't get bogged down on the exact language, OS or degree. That stuff will constantly change. Be smart and demonstrate it.

-M
(Ex-MSFT, Ex-NASA, Ex-GOOG Software Engineer)

 

[Fallen Kell]

I think mjd has a very good point. The stuff you are talking about now like languages are things that will change at least 1-2 times in your career. I personally would go for the JAVA track as it will teach you a lot of other fundamentals and skills which are easily transferable/applicable with other languages. Object Oriented Programming will be around for a while still as it is conceptually an easy way for a human to think about how to do something. While it is certainly not the most efficient way of programming to get the best performance, it is probably the most efficient way of programming to get code which can be easily written and maintained over its lifetime (which may outlast the developer who wrote it).

 

[Lil Frier]

This is valid, although that is already another major at my school. A CS degree is the basics of logic, math, data structures, and algorithms. Every CS student should be taught at least that. Upper level electives for me include AI, advanced data structures, advanced OOP, database programming, and even include the advanced math classes (Calculus III, Differential Equations, etc...) if I choose to take them.

I only mentioned it because OP said he wanted to do systems programming.

Yeah, that's right. For us, the "core classes" are Data Structures & Algorithms (it's basically Java 3), Foundations of Computer Science (takes a brief look at several CS-related things), Intro to Operating Systems (which does a bit of C coding and explores a bit of how an OS works), and Computer Organization (where we code in C++, Assembler, and machine code, in addition to looking at a bunch of other stuff; my teacher for that class said it was actually 4 different classes when she earned her degree).

After those 4 core classes, you have two math requirements, Statistics and either Discrete or Finite. Since I transferred to this school from a community college, I'm not sure what all is required at the start, but you have the Java 1 and 2 classes and Calculus at the CC, so I assume they're all requirements as well.

The upper-level electives are kind of split between security and software engineering ones. You have intro to networking and a follow-up class to it (both of which are Cisco-related classes), along with a few different security-related electives I don't really know about (like Intrusion Detection). On the software engineering side, I'm taking Web Design (because the intro to databases class was full) and intro to Android development (just a fun filler), and I already took the intro to networking class (which turned me away from the system security side).

After all of that, you have the last two classes, where the specializations kick in. I can't remember what the security class is, but software has Programming Languages, then each has a capstone.

 

[Lil Frier]

As to actually answering the thread's original question, I agree that Java is a preferable option. It's pretty similar to C++ in a lot of ways, so going back and picking up C++ skills after isn't too hard. However, to get the general logic of writing applications and learning syntax and all that, Java's a smoother ride, in my opinion. you don't deal with pointers, and NetBeans is a more-friendly IDE than Visual Studio, in terms of explaining errors, though that might just be a statement of familiarity over fact.

 

[Leros]

I include all of that as well, of course, and myself as well as the majority of my colleagues did not learn that material in college. My point is simply that the OP's choice of major will not somehow invalidate them from obtaining a programming job, if they know the things they need to know. I've been at this twenty years and I can count the number of CS grads I've worked with on one hand.

I will agree with that. The major doesn't matter, but not having that CS knowledge will prevent them from getting a good job. I know software developers with backgrounds in electrical/computer engineering, math, physics, and astronomy.

 

[Graze]

Visual programming is probably not just VB. It probably includes Visual Studio, being C#, VB, C++. Check on it.

Care to explain this? As a user of Visual Studio I am left confused by your statement.

 

[Markbnj]

Care to explain this? As a user of Visual Studio I am left confused by your statement.

He's probably just taking a stab at defining "Visual Programming." It's an ambiguous phrase. It's actually quite odd to offer a choice between Java and "Visual Programming." Not like you can't do "visual programming," or program visually, or whatever the hell they mean, using various tools and Java.

 

[LevelSea]

I think mjd has a very good point. The stuff you are talking about now like languages are things that will change at least 1-2 times in your career. I personally would go for the JAVA track as it will teach you a lot of other fundamentals and skills which are easily transferable/applicable with other languages. Object Oriented Programming will be around for a while still as it is conceptually an easy way for a human to think about how to do something. While it is certainly not the most efficient way of programming to get the best performance, it is probably the most efficient way of programming to get code which can be easily written and maintained over its lifetime (which may outlast the developer who wrote it).

I regularly see code at work that was written by a guy that died years ago.

 

[Dr. Canny]

He's probably just taking a stab at defining "Visual Programming." It's an ambiguous phrase. It's actually quite odd to offer a choice between Java and "Visual Programming." Not like you can't do "visual programming," or program visually, or whatever the hell they mean, using various tools and Java.

The community college I attend offers a choice between two programming certificates. One is Java Programming, which includes two Java programming classes and a Database Design/Management class. The other is Visual Programming, which includes one C/C++ programming class, and two Visual Basic Programming classes. There are also 3 other classes that are included in both certifications; Computing Logic, Information Systems Fundamentals, and Intro to Microcomputers.

Hope that clears everything up.

I think they call it Visual Programming because they use Visual Studio as the IDE for the class. I'm not sure.

 

[Markbnj]

The community college I attend offers a choice between two programming certificates. One is Java Programming, which includes two Java programming classes and a Database Design/Management class. The other is Visual Programming, which includes one C/C++ programming class, and two Visual Basic Programming classes. There are also 3 other classes that are included in both certifications; Computing Logic, Information Systems Fundamentals, and Intro to Microcomputers.

Hope that clears everything up.

I think they call it Visual Programming because they use Visual Studio as the IDE for the class. I'm not sure.

It at least clears up why I don't care about college programming certificates or degrees when I'm hiring a programmer.

 

[QuietDad]

Don't forget to use one of the elective classes to take a language course in Hindi, where most of the programming jobs using those technologies have been outsourced to. VB and Java are dieing out. C++ will always be there. There is just somethings you can't do without it.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Don't forget to use one of the elective classes to take a language course in Hindi, where most of the programming jobs using those technologies have been outsourced to. VB and Java are dieing out. C++ will always be there. There is just somethings you can't do without it.

No, Java is not dying out. See: Android, Tomcat, JSPs . . .

No, "most" software development jobs have not been outsourced, just some. And some companies have "insourced" again after finding the salary savings didn't make up for lower quality work. Not necessarily because the offshore developers weren't as capable, but sometimes because of communication and remote management difficulties.

A capable developer can find work.

 

[Tweak155]

From my experience, the problem with outsourcing is that there is no thinking outside the box.

The hired company can generally produce exactly what's requested, but that's it. Kind of like me hiring a company to build me a house, I hand them the blueprints I designed but they don't identify I have no doors to get in the house. And me, not being a designer, didn't think I had to have a door drawn on the house. So I end up getting a house with no doors.

Now apply that to many aspects of a software package and it ends up being a lot more work.

 

[smackababy]

No, Java is not dying out. See: Android, Tomcat, JSPs . . .

No, "most" software development jobs have not been outsourced, just some. And some companies have "insourced" again after finding the salary savings didn't make up for lower quality work. Not necessarily because the offshore developers weren't as capable, but sometimes because of communication and remote management difficulties.

A capable developer can find work.

This +1000!

I was recently in the market for a Java development job and quite a few companies I interviewed would not outsource because the cost savings in outsourcing were negated by the increase in development time. They'd rather pay someone more to get it done right the first time.

And, the amount of interviewers I had complain about the average developers lack of common knowledge was rather funny. I would always comment on how easy the technical interview questions were and get that from them. Who doesn't the difference between an abstract class and an interface?

 

[brandonb]

I think they call it Visual Programming because they use Visual Studio as the IDE for the class. I'm not sure.

This is what I was referring to. I can see 2 directions in college, teaching non Microsoft such as Java with Eclipse (or whatever) then another that focuses on Visual Studio IDE and its associated languages. (Managed C#/VB.net and Visual C++ unmanaged, ASP.net, and so on).

We have an intern going through Programming and he is saying this is how it is at his college. He is taking both directions. He currently is working on Android phone programming, Java (on the non Microsoft option) and then C# and ASP.net. (With Visual Studio)... He's already taken SQL/DB and VB.net in past semesters, along with Ruby on Rails, PHP, and who know what. He is quite diverse in his degree, and good for him!

 

[Markbnj]

No, Java is not dying out. See: Android, Tomcat, JSPs . . .

No, "most" software development jobs have not been outsourced, just some. And some companies have "insourced" again after finding the salary savings didn't make up for lower quality work. Not necessarily because the offshore developers weren't as capable, but sometimes because of communication and remote management difficulties.

A capable developer can find work.

There was an article recently that got a lot of attention about how java has quietly come to rule the web on the server side.

 

[Lil Frier]

The community college I attend offers a choice between two programming certificates. One is Java Programming, which includes two Java programming classes and a Database Design/Management class. The other is Visual Programming, which includes one C/C++ programming class, and two Visual Basic Programming classes. There are also 3 other classes that are included in both certifications; Computing Logic, Information Systems Fundamentals, and Intro to Microcomputers.

Hope that clears everything up.

I think they call it Visual Programming because they use Visual Studio as the IDE for the class. I'm not sure.

I wish I lived near your CC. The one here didn't offer much, when it came to languages. Everything was Java, from what I noticed in my time there. I'd have loved to have taken classes to become certified in a plethora of languages. That would be awesome, and it would have helped going into these classes in the higher-up CS degree path at my school, where we work with C and C++ a bit.

 

[ringtail]

I think you have the wrong thread here, Cowboy.

Markbnj
Programming mod

 

[Train]

WAT

 

[clamum]

Programming jobs outsourced to India. Java dying out. LOOOOL. What the fuck is this? You're extremely biased, for whatever reason, or just completely clueless (or, of course, a healthy mix of both). I live in Michigan, Southeast area to be more precise, so it ain't Silicon Valley, but there's a ton of development jobs down here. Jeez, I was let go from my last job in late September and was only there not quite a year and a half; took me a month to find a job (while not even looking very hard to be honest) and I ended up with an $11k raise and about the same benefits as my old job. I'd be blown away if SE Michigan had the only dev jobs in the country.

 

[Aldon]

Java is definitely not dying out. Who made this argument anyway that it has gotten so far?
When thinking about a career in programming, knowing Java is probably a must-have. C# and PHP, for instance, are probably very handy languages to know as well, even though PHP is only used for server-side web applications. However, Java servlets are comparable to that as well.

 

[Obsoleet]

I'm a lot older than you OP, but when I was in school I took the VB route. I regret it and consider it useless. I eventually taught myself Python and will be starting in on C# early next year for work. I'd try to stick to the most 'open' technologies as you can.
I don't really like Java/C# stuff personally, but Java is the much better choice over VB.