A case for religion, and against AA.

[dphantom]

Logically it's a requirement that believers should all adhere to a shared set of core beliefs; believers need to be coherent and consistent because it's a group thing. The only thing that is required to be a non-believer is to not believe the believers' beliefs; it's an individual thing.

Not really. We all share a core set of beliefs, salvation in Jesus. The rest is interpretation and open to discussion.

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man, which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit, which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

I Cor.2: 11-16

 

[OverVolt]

Not really. We all share a core set of beliefs, salvation in Jesus. The rest is interpretation and open to discussion.

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man, which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit, which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

I Cor.2: 11-16

This made me laugh I don't know why. Build up all these vitriol beliefs about religion over a decade and whoops! Its just a media angle to get views. Those atheists you know how they are suckers for a good local newspaper story about creationism being proposed at some backwards little town school district, sorry I can't help it.. aghhhh lol.

 

[AViking]

That child still has the ability and free will to choose to go to the orphanage....correct? Divine or otherwise...it`s still free will....or the right to choose...

Are you insane? That's not free will!

Free will does not have restrictions or conditions. Stop being intellectually dishonest!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Are you insane? That's not free will!

Free will does not have restrictions or conditions. Stop being intellectually dishonest!

Are you insane is the word....with your false outrage....

Of course free will has no restrictions -- but it does have consequences.....

Every choice you make has consequences....

I liked how he used a 5 year old instead of an adult in that example, as a 5-year old cannot fully comprehend the consequences of his/her actions, so it looks infintely worse sending a 5 year-old to an orphanage than a full grown man to "hell" for choosing the wrong religion.

Some non-believers use asinine analogies to make a bad point.

Then --

Our legal system works almost indentically. You have laws (don't drive over 30 mph), but you're free to choose whether or not you will abide by them, but not without consequences (citations, fines, etc). Nothing wrong with that.

That's essentially how the "free will" example works.

I am sorry if you get all hot and bothered over a 5 year old.....yet if it is any consequences I personally believe a 5 year old is not old enough to truly understand.......

but let me contend the example is a very poor example because not all 5 year olds have the ability to discern or understand what they are told....now substitute a 14 year old or even an adult....

 

[sandorski]

Are you insane is the word....with your false outrage....

Of course free will has no restrictions -- but it does have consequences.....

Every choice you make has consequences....



Then --



I am sorry if you get all hot and bothered over a 5 year old.....yet if it is any consequences I personally believe a 5 year old is not old enough to truly understand.......

but let me contend the example is a very poor example because not all 5 year olds have the ability to discern or understand what they are told....now substitute a 14 year old or even an adult....

The age of the person is moot. The choice scenario is the same at any age.

 

[OverVolt]

I'm pretty big into free will over determinism. The latter making people trend towards a lack of self-control.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053810012001171

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/free-will-vs-programmed-brain/

Don't really know how to get the good stuff for free, but the abstract is there.

Makes sense to me then why religion would be into free will. I'm actually aware of you know, real science and stuff. The atheists at this point in time are legitimately on the edge of crazy town, IMO. Thinking they have similar morals and in reality they don't.

Literally every thread touching the topic of religion turns into an AA circle jerk. Its just what you guys do. You realize this right? You don't change anyone's mind by being hostile in arguments and throwing around logical fallacy this or that, like anyone really cares. Its generally such a pain that anyone who believes in god just stays far, far, far away. Which leads to a bit of confirmation bias that you are correct. No one is challenging our ideas!

This type of arguing is what leads people to really sink their anchors down into crazytown, for both sides. The more arguing between the groups the more divided they will get. This is just another gun control/ abortion/death penalty etc. etc. polarizing topic because both sides plug their ears and shout back and forth.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The age of the person is moot. The choice scenario is the same at any age.

my response is the same -- Of course free will has no restrictions -- but it does have consequences.....

Every choice you make has consequences....

 

[OverVolt]

my response is the same -- Of course free will has no restrictions -- but it does have consequences.....

Every choice you make has consequences....

Normally I'd just assume everyone knows the second bit but its getting to the point where its like well... some people seem to have legitimately missed that life lesson.

 

[sandorski]

my response is the same -- Of course free will has no restrictions -- but it does have consequences.....

Every choice you make has consequences....

Normally I'd just assume everyone knows the second bit but its getting to the point where its like well... some people seem to have legitimately missed that life lesson.

Of course there are consequences. That's so obvious it doesn't even require stating. In a truly Free Will situation, the kid would have had 1 of 4 consequences or possibly 5 if you count not choosing.

 

[soulcougher73]

That's the way most atheist respond when in a corner...with asinine BS!!

oh.....boohoo look a 5 year old in an example......again the 5 year old still has the ability to choose as he please...

but let me contend the example is a very poor example because not all 5 year olds have the ability to discern or understand what they are told....now substitute a 14 year old or even an adult....

Feel free to use whatever age you want. It doesnt change the analogy.

 

[Agent11]

Have to disagree with you JEDI. There is still free will. You will be disadvantaged and in some degree of mental anguish but it will make you stronger for experiencing it. I refused to participate at 5 and got in my share of trouble for it.

As a society we are getting a bit emasculated I think. However you look at it the sole responsibility is with the individual and we are all very alone when it comes right down to it. That isn't to say that community isn't important or effective, however if the individual is not strong the community will not be strong. There are safety nets galore anyhow, I've even tested quite a few of them in my life.

People leave religions all the time, and join them. They seek to better themselves and to understand their world in a context that they can live with. I can respect that. Depending upon ideology, people who have an ideal start to life would be receiving an inadequate start to life by the others estimation, so a reasonable triangulation shouldn't be that hard to make, as it is preferable to genocide.

 

[jackstar7]

The atheists at this point in time are legitimately on the edge of crazy town, IMO. Thinking they have similar morals and in reality they don't.

Rather than continue on with your ranting against atheists, why don't you back up this statement that you made with some actual reasoning.

Otherwise, you only feed the behavior you claim is so damaging.

 

[soulcougher73]

Rather than continue on with your ranting against atheists, why don't you back up this statement that you made with some actual reasoning.

Otherwise, you only feed the behavior you claim is so damaging.

They just upset they had to be told how to be moral while the rest of us it just came naturally to us.

 

[Smoblikat]

I think OP is on the right track.

You wouldnt throw a parent in jail for "child abuse" because they told their kid that Santa flew a bunch of reindeer down the chimney and brought presents on christmas.

To me, religion is just a waste of time. It can be fun to think about, for short periods of time, but it is not important enough to me to warrant having a discussion about it with someone. I just honestly dont care what you think, you can think whatever you want and as long as you are doing what you think you need to to live a better life.........why would it bother me?

 

[justoh]

I think OP is on the right track.

You wouldnt throw a parent in jail for "child abuse" because they told their kid that Santa flew a bunch of reindeer down the chimney and brought presents on christmas.

To me, religion is just a waste of time. It can be fun to think about, for short periods of time, but it is not important enough to me to warrant having a discussion about it with someone. I just honestly dont care what you think, you can think whatever you want and as long as you are doing what you think you need to to live a better life.........why would it bother me?

Well, with the santa lie they tell kids that he knows when you've been naughty or nice, and that perhaps you'll get a shit present or none if you're the former. With the god lie the stakes are a bit higher. He/she/it knows everything you do and even what you think, and you're threatened with eternal damnation, and condemned for your nature.

You don't care what religious people think because you don't take politics seriously or care for the well-being of children.

 

[disappoint]

That's the way most atheist respond when in a corner...with asinine BS!!

oh.....boohoo look a 5 year old in an example......again the 5 year old still has the ability to choose as he please...

but let me contend the example is a very poor example because not all 5 year olds have the ability to discern or understand what they are told....now substitute a 14 year old or even an adult....

You keep saying that as if we should just believe you because you repeat it over and over again. Do you really think the 5 year old's choice is unaffected by what his mother told him? That he will be put in an orphanage if he chooses the wrong cookie? Assume the 5 year old, 14 year old or adult understands what they are being told or else the whole example is senseless.

 

[JEDIYoda]

You keep saying that as if we should just believe you because you repeat it over and over again. Do you really think the 5 year old's choice is unaffected by what his mother told him? That he will be put in an orphanage if he chooses the wrong cookie? Assume the 5 year old, 14 year old or adult understands what they are being told or else the whole example is senseless.

you see what you think has no bearing on what I believe........nobody could convince you anywasy even if they were correct....


let me also say that example is well just that not a very good example.....trying to affect the outcome by using a 5 year old....that's what most atheists would do when backed into a corner with no response available other than a very idiotic and bad example...

That's the way most atheist respond when in a corner...with asinine BS!!

oh.....boohoo look a 5 year old in an example......again the 5 year old still has the ability to choose as he please...

but let me contend the example is a very poor example because not all 5 year olds have the ability to discern or understand what they are told....now substitute a 14 year old or even an adult....

 

[sandorski]

you see what you think has no bearing on what I believe........nobody could convince you anywasy even if they were correct....


let me also say that example is well just that not a very good example.....trying to affect the outcome by using a 5 year old....that's what most atheists would do when backed into a corner with no response available other than a very idiotic and bad example...

That's the way most atheist respond when in a corner...with asinine BS!!

oh.....boohoo look a 5 year old in an example......again the 5 year old still has the ability to choose as he please...

but let me contend the example is a very poor example because not all 5 year olds have the ability to discern or understand what they are told....now substitute a 14 year old or even an adult....

Is it that painful to entertain what the example was really about?

The only one responding with asinine BS is you.

 

[moonbogg]

my response is the same -- Of course free will has no restrictions -- but it does have consequences.....

Every choice you make has consequences....

You think belief is a choice I presume? You think us a-hole atheists chose to not believe?
When I was Christian, I didn't chose to believe. When I realized I had become atheist, I didn't chose to stop believing either. Free will had ZERO to do with the evolution of my world view.

 

[jhbball]

You think belief is a choice I presume? You think us a-hole atheists chose to not believe?
When I was Christian, I didn't chose to believe. When I realized I had become atheist, I didn't chose to stop believing either. Free will had ZERO to do with the evolution of my world view.

JEDI clearly didn't choose his religion. It was gifted to him at a young age.

 

[shadow9d9]

Poor religious victim!!!

Tell you what... Stop legislating based on your archaic magic books, stop voting to deny human rights based on what you think your 2000 year old books tell you to, and stop knocking on my door trying to convert me. While you are at it, stop pushing your non science into science classrooms. Then, atheists wouldn't give a crap that you believe in magic. Just keep that shit to yourself.

 

[OverVolt]

..

 

[JEDIYoda]

Tell you what... Stop legislating based on your archaic magic books, stop voting to deny human rights based on what you think your 2000 year old books tell you to, and stop knocking on my door trying to convert me. While you are at it, stop pushing your non science into science classrooms. Then, atheists wouldn't give a crap that you believe in magic. Just keep that shit to yourself.

You my friend are a raging lunatic!!

I have no issues with homosexuals...I voted NO for proposition 8.......I also believe a woman should be the only person to make any choices concerning her body.....
Do we need to go on or are you going to stop thinking all religious people are the same??
We are not the same!! I vote what I believe is best for everyone! I do not vote based on what the Bible or any preacher would say!! So back off you anti-religion Zealot!!

 

[MtnMan]

No not alcoholics anonymous, angry atheism.

So some atheists believe religion is harmful.

It is, but I won't waste my time explaining it to someone stupid enough to believe in some sky daddy that is always watching, and will send you to hell to suffer forever and ever and ever, because he loves you.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Makes sense to me then why religion would be into free will. I'm actually aware of you know, real science and stuff. The atheists at this point in time are legitimately on the edge of crazy town, IMO. Thinking they have similar morals and in reality they don't..

yep, the morals are not the same, secular morality is superior, although I don't see how this is crazy