A different viewpoint 2

[novon]

Here is an informative point of view on the Israel\Palestine situation made in This Original Thread by ElDonAntonio. The more you know, the better you can decide how you feel about this tragedy.

"I have read ALL the messages in this thread, and I decided to contribute my thoughts. To everyone: the expression of our individual thoughts, respectuf debates, and exchange of points of vues are the source of all civilization on Earth. Please keep this thread alive with rational thoughts. Keep your minds open, and your brains working.

First - All my condolances for the friends and family of the victims. All my sympathy for those who had to witness relatives dying with their own eyes. My heart broke personally when I saw people jumping from the top floors of the WTC, trying to escape the infernal temperatures. This act is monstrous. Any loss of life, in any situation or country is regrettable and should never happen.

Second - I'd like to say I have been moved by many posts here. FlipFlop: your message was truly admirable, full of respect and intelligent thought. Whether I agree with you or not doesn't matter. I greatly respect your way of thought and expression. Many other posted messages I admired. I unfortunatly didn't write down the names of everyone (5 pages on this thread...)


Third - my point of vue:

Many of you here have turned around the matter by engaging in irrelevant debates about communism, other people's mothers, or US import/export.

The real matter at hand is asking why would anyone would be ready to give his life to crash into a US building full of people. The truth is, only desperate people would do that. People who have nothing to lose. It's no coincidence the first suspects were Palestinians. But why? well, you know yourself the answer if you suspect them. Because they have reasons to hate the United States, and you know these reasons.

After the WWII, the international community felt very bad for the Jewish people. What could be done to repair Hitler's wrongs? Well, according to the Ancient Testament, Palestine is the promised land, and the Jews, the chosen race (doesn't it remind you of the Nazi philosophy? exactly the same thing). The UN squarely told them "Alright. Take Palestine by whatever means necessary. Our eyes are shut."

Since then emerged the Middle-East trouble. The problem is quite simple: Israelis want the Palestinian land, and palestinians don't feel like being invaded and kicked out of their homes. Then the US came into this affair and self-proclaimed itself a "mediator". Unfortunately, the US are run by Israel. To all the patriotic americans here, I regret to inform you your country is not truly controlled by americans, but rather by Israelis. It would be a much better world if americans were at the head of their country. It is no coincidence that billions of american dollars go to Israel, that all military research is handed to Israel. I'll say it again: The United States are controlled by Israel. You're being naive if you think noble concepts like democracy and freedom are the reason behind the US support for Israel. I do not see invading another country as a democratic or freedom-sponsored move. Nor soldiers shooting children at point-blank range.
So the US "mediator" stance was laughable, and quite obviously, CNN tried to counter that and quickly gave an image of the terrible Arabs and the gentle Israelis. Remember now the source of the conflict: Israel wants to conquer Palestine. Palestinians don't want to leave their own homes. How then can palestinians be blamed for throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers? They are now living in dumpsters while Israel is colonizing their country, with US tanks and F16s. Peace between the two countries seems unfortunatly impossible. Each has interests they will NEVER abandon:

-Israel will ALWAYS want to conquer Palestine, by any means necessary. They say God told them to do so. This belief will go on for generations and generations.
-Palestinians want to keep their homes, and don't want their country to be invaded.


The United States' blatent support to Israel leads to this: Palestinians are being massacred in their own land, and the media of the world (all controlled by Jewish, CNN as an example) are describing them as terrorists. Can you understand their rage and anger?

Now let's go back to what happened on September 11. No one still knows for sure who was behind this attack. But whoever it is (JRA, ben Laden, etc), I cannot blame some Palestinians for feeling the way they feel. They too have lost many friends and family in their own country, in front of their own eyes. Entire villages are being destroyed by Israelis every days. We're not talking about 2 buildings (2 really BIG buildings, I admit), but entire villages. Now many of you are saying "kill them all! they are responsible for the deaths of our people, they should deserve to die!". Can't you see that's exactly what they were thinking about the US too? It's with american funds and ressources Palestinian civilians are being killed everyday. Someone made a very profound reflection here: America sees this as an act of war. It is rather a retaliation of war.

Then again, according to CNN, "2000 Palestinians celebrated in the streets". The population of Palestine is of 3 million. That makes 0.06% of the population, while 99.94% were learning the news in horror. Don't you find it weird that CNN hurried to insist and generalize "Palestinians chanted in the streets"?? That's pure propaganda. 2000 people is nothing, that's roughly the number of students of my old high school. As for the footage we saw on TV: ALL that we saw on all TV channels was a muslim lady with thick goggles, some children jumping, and 2 guys eating cake. NONE OF THEM SAID A WORD. NONE WAS INTERVIEWED. They weren't burning any US or Israeli flag. Don't you find that weird?? Anyone saw the movie Wag the dog? As far as I'm concerned, it looked more like a children's birthday party than "2000 people chanting in the streets".


Conclusion:

I truly wonder what the american reaction will be. I truly hope they will not be consumed by the desire of revenge. I hope they will not try to show all the power of the US army (we all know it's the most powerful in the world, no need for a demonstration). I rather hope they will stop and think about the horror that happened. Why it happened. What the US government did to move the Middle-East conflict back to New York. And I hope the reaction will be a mild one. I don't want to be in the middle of WWIII. Obvisouly, the US are NOT impartial in the Middle East conflict. They should back off and let another country do the mediating. If the US government wasn't controlled by Israel, none of this horror would have ever happened. The US government succeeded in making its own people, innocent people, pay the price of Israel. As if tax dollars weren't enough, americans have now payed with their lives so that Jews can have more money to get their promised land by God. "

-ElDonAntonio

 

[Jank]

Stop spreading this moronic nonsense. :disgust:

 

[rudder]

The real matter at hand is asking why would anyone would be ready to give his life to crash into a US building full of people. The truth is, only desperate people would do that. .

Desperate people? bin Laden has hundreds of millions of dollars. Why not attract industry, build roads and schools. Nope, he is a religious fundamentalist who hates everything the U.S. stands for.

Martin Luther King Jr. was a desperate man. You did not see his followers strapping dynamite to themselves and attacking people. He preached love and tolerance. Bin Laden wants you and I dead. He wants his religion to rule.

 

[Zwingle]

And we want Democracy to rule....and we have taken extreme measures to get that also........

 

[HOWITIS]

bin laden has also stated that he was gonna do everything he can to reverse the domination of the west, and feels that the muslim community should have the world power postion, and is gonna do what he can to take down the west.

 

[brennan]

Boy, where to begin?

The truth is, only desperate people would do that. People who have nothing to lose.

Bullsh*t: likely the people who did it were religious fundamentalists who felt that it would get them into heaven, or soldiers who gave their lives to a political cause, or both. Desperate people who had nothing to lose? Get serious.

After the WWII, the international community felt very bad for the Jewish people. What could be done to repair Hitler's wrongs? Well, according to the Ancient Testament, Palestine is the promised land, and the Jews, the chosen race (doesn't it remind you of the Nazi philosophy? exactly the same thing).

Bullsh*t: As far as I understand it, Israel was carved out because the Jewish people have been getting routinely fscked for years beyond counting, and creating a Jewish homeland was seen as a way of minimizing the chances of such things happening in the future, in addition to creating an ally in the region. That area is the ancestral homeland of many religious people, including the Jews. The whole "chosen people=Nazis=Hitler=Jews as bad as Hitler!" thing is specious, and I'm invoking Godwin's Law here.

Unfortunately, the US are run by Israel. To all the patriotic americans here, I regret to inform you your country is not truly controlled by americans, but rather by Israelis. It would be a much better world if americans were at the head of their country. It is no coincidence that billions of american dollars go to Israel, that all military research is handed to Israel. I'll say it again: The United States are controlled by Israel.

Bullsh*t: this is the same anti-Semitic crap that has been spewed by bigots for years. The U.S. gives considerable aid to Israel because they are the sole democracy in the region, because they are our strongest ally in the region, and (I suspect) for many of the same reasons as Israel was created in the first place. "Jews run the U.S!" conspiracy theory crap is totally baseless.

I should add that, to the best of my knowledge, Egypt receives just as much in U.S. aid, dollar-wise, as Israel.

The United States' blatent support to Israel leads to this: Palestinians are being massacred in their own land, and the media of the world (all controlled by Jewish, CNN as an example) are describing them as terrorists. Can you understand their rage and anger?

Bullsh*t: this is a complete oversimplification. Palestinian *suicide bombers* are the ones described as terrorists. Which they are. How soon we forget that Yasser Arafat received the Nobel Peace Prize seven short years ago. And notice it's again with the "Jews control the world!" conspiracy theory crap. If evil Jews controlled the media, and everyone the world over thought all Palestinians were terrorists, would Arafat have gotten the good will that he did? Use your head.

-----

Look: U.S. foreign policy has given some people around the world reason to be angry with the U.S. and/or Israel. I myself have criticized America's actions many times in the past, and I think that the attack gives us reason to think about lots of things, including our own policies and the reasons we've aroused such resentment. But this post makes almost no valid points: it is rhetorical bomb throwing. *Anyone* who takes joy in the murder of tens of thousands of innocents has something wrong with them, period. There are no excuses for this, I don't care WHAT someone's grievances are. I'm a pacifist, but watching the Palestinians celebrating on TV, I wanted to put my fist directly through many of them.

-brennan

 

[PlatinumGold]

If the US government wasn't controlled by Israel, none of this horror would have ever happened. The US government succeeded in making its own people, innocent people, pay the price of Israel. As if tax dollars weren't enough, americans have now payed with their lives so that Jews can have more money to get their promised land by God.


Now i understand. this is just another Anti Semitic attack. that's all it is. it sums up his ENTIRE POSITION.

Stop w/ the antisemitism.

Sure people of jewish descent have a lot of influence in the US, so do a lot of other special interests. that doesn't give anyone the right to think they can get away w/ terrorism.

John McCain "God may have mercy on you, we won't" (paraphrased).

now shup up w/ this nonsense.

 

[burnedout]

-Israel will ALWAYS want to conquer Palestine, by any means necessary.

Israel has had the military resources necessary to perform such an operation at any time. They haven't blasted the Palestinians from the face of the earth because they have shown restraint.

I am convinced the period of restraint ended on September 11th. Not only from an Israeli perspective, but from an American perspective as well.

No, we don't have to accept terrorism any longer. Do you hear me? We don't have to accept it.

 

[cipher00]

NovoN - I see your point of view but am afraid I do not agree with most of it. I listened to an Arab editor of some paper on the BBC, and his point was interesting. His basic argument was that the US has a duty to bring peace to the Mideast because we are the last standing superpower. Since we're not doing it, we should expect this kind of thing. Sorry, but it doesn't hold up for me.

Not for an overly long post----

I personally was moved by the Palestinean plight, and still am. You may have noticed in recent weeks that the US was actually restraining Israeli activity, as best it could.

Now this.

The Palestinian cause has just been set back 50 years. The zealots who perpetrated this atrocity don't give a damn about the Palestineans - they just hate America.

The aftermath is going to be interesting. And it won't be over in 100 days.

Remember how the US treated the American Indians? Shameful activity, we say 100 years later. And it was. But our forefathers saw the American Indians as a threat, and treated them accordingly. And got results.

Another sad thing here is that we know how to respond, in full fury if we wish.

It's going to be interesting. And unfortunate.