A "gallon" of electricity costs $5

[desura]

33.7 kWh is the energy equivalent to 1 gallon of gasoline. If taking into account conversion losses, at 15 cents per kWh a gallon equivalent is $5.

Most electric cars get between 100mpge and 120 mpge, but by this measure on the extremes, a Prius might actually be cheaper per mile to operate than a Tesla.

 

[Yuriman]

Yep.

A buddy of mine gets ~2 cents per kwh electricity at night where he lives, and 8 cents during the day. He drives a Volt and burns maybe 2 tanks of gas per year.

I pay 17 cents year around, but I live 1500 miles away. Wouldn't make sense for me to get an EV because I get nearly 100mpg on gasoline alone anyway.

 

[Kaido]

33.7 kWh is the energy equivalent to 1 gallon of gasoline. If taking into account conversion losses, at 15 cents per kWh a gallon equivalent is $5.

Most electric cars get between 100mpge and 120 mpge, but by this measure on the extremes, a Prius might actually be cheaper per mile to operate than a Tesla.

On a tangent, I suspect that we will continue to see Big Oil create artificially low gas prices to slow the oncoming wave of electric cars, probably for at least the next 4 or 5 years. Even neat vehicles like the 238-mile Bolt, which starts at $37k pre-tax, are still out of reach for most people's budgets. It will happen when it makes financial sense, which probably either means cheap EV's or fast-charging batteries.

 

[desura]

On a tangent, I suspect that we will continue to see Big Oil create artificially low gas prices to slow the oncoming wave of electric cars, probably for at least the next 4 or 5 years. Even neat vehicles like the 238-mile Bolt, which starts at $37k pre-tax, are still out of reach for most people's budgets. It will happen when it makes financial sense, which probably either means cheap EV's or fast-charging batteries.

All it would take would be if every Starbucks or whatever had an electric charging station. It makes plenty of business sense for restaurants to offer free electric charging for customers.

I don't think it will be market manipulation so much as simple market pricing due to demand destruction which could cause problems for electric car adaptation.

I did the math and assuming current gas prices, 15 cent kwh electricity, and 15k miles, compared to my current hybrid which gets 40mpg, an electric at 100mpge saves roughly $500 a year.

 

[thedarkwolf]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCVyIcnh2BE
I watched that a couple weeks ago on how fast you can charge a battery. Basically it comes down to you have to get X amount of energy into the battery and to do so quickly you either need very high voltage and or very VERY high current which means super thick wires. There is going to be a limit. You also have to keep in mind you aren't going to show up at Star Bucks with a dead battery planning to charge it to 100% either. Even doing a cross country drive you just need another 100-150 miles to get to your next rest stop/battery charge up and those Tesla Super Chargers can do that fairly quickly now.

 

[desura]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCVyIcnh2BE
I watched that a couple weeks ago on how fast you can charge a battery. Basically it comes down to you have to get X amount of energy into the battery and to do so quickly you either need very high voltage and or very VERY high current which means super thick wires. There is going to be a limit. You also have to keep in mind you aren't going to show up at Star Bucks with a dead battery planning to charge it to 100% either. Even doing a cross country drive you just need another 100-150 miles to get to your next rest stop/battery charge up and those Tesla Super Chargers can do that fairly quickly now.

interesting, but besides the point.

Most gas stations make no/little profit on gas sales. Where they make their money is selling you a $3 bag of chips or whatever when you come in after buying gas.

so actually, free electric charging that was also slightly slow would make good business sense since the consumer would be in the area for longer and would buy more stuff.

 

[Yuriman]

interesting, but besides the point.

Most gas stations make no/little profit on gas sales. Where they make their money is selling you a $3 bag of chips or whatever when you come in after buying gas.

so actually, free electric charging that was also slightly slow would make good business sense since the consumer would be in the area for longer and would buy more stuff.

Seems to me it would make more sense to have "charging cafes" than gas stations, if people need to waste 30-45 minutes. Maybe a food court, tables and chairs, some TVs.

 

[K1052]

Why bother with any of that? The vast majority of people will be fine charging at home and at work, that's where chargers need to go.

You really only need a few Level 3 chargers along highways.

 

[Leyawiin]

Roof top solar panels usually get me a net surplus compensation from my power company and I almost exclusively drive within a 50 mile round trip from home. A couple times a year I drive a 500 mile round trip and its always along a path where there are super chargers (Northern and Central California). An electric would work just fine for me. I'll strongly consider it next time I get a new car.

 

[Zivic]

no where in this discussion is there talk about how good/enjoyable the cars are to drive.... only measurement is fuel economy.

I am not opposed to electric vehicles, but the ONLY real things they seem to have going for them is fuel savings. within the confines of this discussion it seems that advantage isn't all that significant.

we need electric cars that are exciting and fun. give us an electric equivalent to the corvette, focus RS, mustang, miata, etc, and do so at a comparable price. I know I am not the only one that chooses a vehicle based on more on whether it is electric or hybrid or gas ....

 

[desura]

no where in this discussion is there talk about how good/enjoyable the cars are to drive.... only measurement is fuel economy.

I am not opposed to electric vehicles, but the ONLY real things they seem to have going for them is fuel savings. within the confines of this discussion it seems that advantage isn't all that significant.

we need electric cars that are exciting and fun. give us an electric equivalent to the corvette, focus RS, mustang, miata, etc, and do so at a comparable price. I know I am not the only one that chooses a vehicle based on more on whether it is electric or hybrid or gas ....

Uh, that's what the model S does.

I'm more interested in an electric vehicle that can go offroad. I'd also be interested in watching NASCAR-like events if electric cars were in there.

 

[Yuriman]

EVs are nice to drive. No vibrations from a gasoline engine, no noise, and the torque is available instantly at any RPM. Most existing EVs are fairly boring hatch designs but for what they are, they're great.

 

[tweakmonkey]

but the ONLY real things they seem to have going for them is fuel savings. within the confines of this discussion it seems that advantage isn't all that significant

Some pluses:
-Way less moving parts, way less stuff to go wrong
-Pre-conditioning with no emissions or risk of smogging someone to death
-Charge at home or work, instead of having to stop at a gas station, as a commuter
-Much quieter (which results in a much more pleasurable experience for commuting). Quieter city
-Tons of torque - even slow EVs are quick off the line and great for around town driving, stoplights, etc.
-No tailpipe emissions = idling, being in traffic, better for pedestrians, neighborhoods and so-on.
-You can create electricity a zillion ways and create gasoline only one way
- one pedal driving. My favorite feature probably. The regenerative braking is aggressive enough that for most driving you rarely have to touch the brake pedal. Somehow this makes driving around traffic and stops a lot less stressful.

I work around Porsches for a living and have owned a dozen sports cars. I get to drive amazing cars all the time. I still love my electric car and wouldn't part with it for anything other than another EV for my daily routine. For backroads and sporty fun driving, road trips, and track use I'll drive the gas cars. But for regular around town and commuting, no contest I'll drive an EV.

Also they're lots of fun, and will only get better now that companies are focusing on them.

 

[herm0016]

you account for conversion loss in the electric powertrain, but not the gas powertrain. We get about 4 miles per kWh in the volt. About 10 cents per kwh here, 10.8 kwh useable per charge. It costs about a dollar to go 40 miles. On gas, we get around 40 mpg in it. So 40 miles on gas is around 2.20 and electricity is 1 dollar. Tell me again how I'm wasting money? We paid about the price of a similar car in gas only well optioned for a volt with 20k miles. Zero repair cost and we have over 60k on it. Plus we only have to buy gas every couple months and no range anxiety.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[Yuriman]

To me, the Volt is really the best of both worlds right now. The electric range is perfect, and it's pretty efficient on gas alone too. If I were in the market for a new car, it would probably be my first choice.

I wonder though - why does the much larger and more powerful Accord Hybrid get a 48mpg combined rating, while the Volt gets a combined 41 on gas alone? And on electricity alone, the Accord has ~10% better MPGe? Is Honda's engine / drivetrain really that much more efficient?

Looking forward to the new Clarity Hybrid hitting the market; looks like it'll be a solid Volt competitor.

 

[desura]

To me, the Volt is really the best of both worlds right now. The electric range is perfect, and it's pretty efficient on gas alone too. If I were in the market for a new car, it would probably be my first choice.

I wonder though - why does the much larger and more powerful Accord Hybrid get a 48mpg combined rating, while the Volt gets a combined 41 on gas alone? And on electricity alone, the Accord has ~10% better MPGe? Is Honda's engine / drivetrain really that much more efficient?

Looking forward to the new Clarity Hybrid hitting the market; looks like it'll be a solid Volt competitor.

Probably weight.

If the Volt didn't have that big hump in the rear seat leg room I would probably consider it. I don't get why they had to put it in like that, because that significantly reduces rear seat capacity and comfort, and for that space you might at best put an extra 10 miles of electric range...and I'd rather just have the passenger room and still have over 30 miles of electric range.

The big problem with the Bolt is that long-range charging infrastructure simply is not there and it seriously sucks. It is worse than the Leaf even. This reason alone, the Tesla Model 3 will likely be my next car which I probably will go for in 2020. Or maybe the Model Y will be out by then? All I need is a hatch or small SUV electric.

 

[Yuriman]

The Accord and Volt weigh about the same.

 

[desura]

The Accord and Volt weigh about the same.

Well, generally, American hybrids perform better and have worse gas mileage, while Japanese hybrids have amazing gas mileage but poor performance. Like, my C-Max is based off of Prius technology, and it is really fast but gets average mpg for a hybrid.

 

[desura]

https://youtu.be/zPTmTDWrbes

This guy took his Tesla to the airport, had it sit for 2 weeks... and is surprised when he returns to a dead Tesla.

I honestly think that some sort of solar cells built into these cars make sense for storage applications. If they can keep change steady while the car sits it is worth it. Otherwise, a Tesla loses like 5 miles range per day it is Idle.

 

[Yuriman]

Well, generally, American hybrids perform better and have worse gas mileage, while Japanese hybrids have amazing gas mileage but poor performance. Like, my C-Max is based off of Prius technology, and it is really fast but gets average mpg for a hybrid.

The Accord hybrid has 212hp peak output, with a 141hp gasoline motor and a 181hp electric motor.
7.1 seconds 0-60
115MPGe
48mpg combined on gasoline alone
103cu ft passenger space, 14cu ft cargo

The 2016+ Volt has 149hp peak output, with a 101hp gasoline motor and 149hp between its two electric motors.
8.4 seconds 0-60
105MPGe
41mpg combined on gasoline alone
90 cu ft passenger space, 11cu fit cargo


Granted, the Accord can't go nearly as far on the battery, which in my eyes makes the Volt by far the better car - the PEHV Accord is limited to something like 13-15 miles - but it's both more powerful and more efficient than the Volt. The weight is almost the same so you can't blame it on that.

 

[K1052]

https://youtu.be/zPTmTDWrbes

This guy took his Tesla to the airport, had it sit for 2 weeks... and is surprised when he returns to a dead Tesla.

I honestly think that some sort of solar cells built into these cars make sense for storage applications. If they can keep change steady while the car sits it is worth it. Otherwise, a Tesla loses like 5 miles range per day it is Idle.

Maybe he shouldn't have left it there on a quarter charge, just a thought. Like if you know you have a weak 12v battery in a regular car that parking it for a couple weeks might not work out for you when you get back.

Tesla and Toyota have stated their intention to option solar roofs.

 

[desura]

Maybe he shouldn't have left it there on a quarter charge, just a thought. Like if you know you have a weak 12v battery in a regular car that parking it for a couple weeks might not work out for you when you get back.

Tesla and Toyota have stated their intention to option solar roofs.

https://electrek.co/2017/02/28/tesla-model-3-solar-roof-panasonic/

Yup.

I wish they had done his sooner. And like, on many cars there is this huge unused space between the dash and the windshield...

I mean, cars have been pulling all stops for relatively miniscule increases in efficiency, stuff like not packing a spare tire, riding on LRR tires, and such. A solar power array on the roof increasing efficiency by 10% is fairly substantial. And most cars spend hours just sitting in the parking lot...

 

[sontakke]

The Accord hybrid has 212hp peak output, with a 141hp gasoline motor and a 181hp electric motor.

But gasoline and electric adds up to 322 hp, where is missing 110 hp going?. Are the torque curves so off from each other or the drive train can't effectively combine them?

 

[Yuriman]

But gasoline and electric adds up to 322 hp, where is missing 110 hp going?. Are the torque curves so off from each other or the drive train can't effectively combine them?

You can't add them like that.

It's a series hybrid, the electric motor is what drives the wheels. There is no engine torque curve to measure because there's no transmission, the engine just turns a generator that augments what the battery can deliver, except under a few circumstances where it's clutched to the wheels through a single-speed gearset (so very little drivetrain loss).

You'll notice the Volt can only produce 149hp to the wheels despite having a 101hp engine and 149hp of electric motors, AND having both electric and gas motors connected to the wheels together.

Accord:

Volt:

It's not commonly known that the Volt uses a transmission very much like the Prius's, and under some circumstances it behaves like a conventional ICE car.

Prius:

 

[ChronoReverse]

The most likely reason the Accord is more efficient is because its transmission design is simpler and has less losses vs the Volt's. The power split mechanism pioneered by Toyota was best in-class for over a decade but it's looking like some of the newer ideas are finally surpassing it.

It's kinda surprising it took this long though. The idea of using a clutch to more directly connect the wheels to the ICE has already been tried in various forms over the years (like VW's DCT connected hybrid) but never really matched up until relatively recently.