A line has been crossed in domestic spying

[LunarRay]

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the entire Intelligence Committee 6000 odd page report dwells on the actions stemming from not only the torture bits but also the cover up attempts (tape destruction) as well as to where and who the strings were attached.
IF that is true then it is obvious to me why the one side wants it to remain classified while the other side wants it open to the public... In an attempt to further that objective is where both sides may be stepping into added illegal acts. I can imagine the Committee somehow obtaining documents illegally in their possession and the spooks illegally trying to get them back.

I don't know... don't know what I don't know and even how what I do know might fit in if what I do know is true.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the entire Intelligence Committee 6000 odd page report dwells on the actions stemming from not only the torture bits but also the cover up attempts (tape destruction) as well as to where and who the strings were attached.
IF that is true then it is obvious to me why the one side wants it to remain classified while the other side wants it open to the public... In an attempt to further that objective is where both sides may be stepping into added illegal acts. I can imagine the Committee somehow obtaining documents illegally in their possession and the spooks illegally trying to get them back.

I don't know... don't know what I don't know and even how what I do know might fit in if what I do know is true.

We're not supposed to know what we're not supposed to know.

To a point I accept that some secrecy is necessary since we can't put those who do legitimate intelligence work in danger nor can we alert those who are plotting to do wrong that we are onto them. But how to catch the bad guys? For that matter who are they? And surely if we have tools which can catch them, then what about drug lords? Killers? Robbers? Tax cheats? Speeders? How about just plain "Unamericans"? Identifying those who might do something wrong. Well you can see the slippery slope I've outlined and one might say that it's alarmist but our elected and associated bureaucracy have already abused what we currently have without concern. The djinn in the bottle is a mighty tempting thing.

What we ought to have is a conversation now leading to action which outlines what is proper data acquisition, storage and use by private and governmental entities before we reach total information awareness or effective Big Data management and penalties for abuse.

Will we?

 

[LunarRay]

We're not supposed to know what we're not supposed to know.

To a point I accept that some secrecy is necessary since we can't put those who do legitimate intelligence work in danger nor can we alert those who are plotting to do wrong that we are onto them. But how to catch the bad guys? For that matter who are they? And surely if we have tools which can catch them, then what about drug lords? Killers? Robbers? Tax cheats? Speeders? How about just plain "Unamericans"? Identifying those who might do something wrong. Well you can see the slippery slope I've outlined and one might say that it's alarmist but our elected and associated bureaucracy have already abused what we currently have without concern. The djinn in the bottle is a mighty tempting thing.

What we ought to have is a conversation now leading to action which outlines what is proper data acquisition, storage and use by private and governmental entities before we reach total information awareness or effective Big Data management and penalties for abuse.

Will we?

I recall the Committee chaired by Frank Church for the Senate and Pike in the House. The ones that had the hearings on what was going on with the spooks and prompted the establishment of the current Senate and House Intelligence Committees. I recall that it was said almost all of the Ford Administration's top players did not want folks to testify. Rummy was at the heart of that non disclosure scenario if my subsequent readings were accurate.. that was in '75/'76 ish.
Now fast forward to 9/11 time frame... and Cheney saying on TV we had to use what ever 'dark' methods... his words... that are available to us... AND it went by like 'right on brother'.

I say the above because I do believe our spooky folks and the folks they bring into the groups to follow in the same foot steps do so for reasons that are not directly related to the issues that prompt their overt attempts to let ordinary folks in on the current or obvious game plan... They cover their butts by these alerts... IOW, something is afoot or ok boys let's put out some 'we're the good guys doing work on your behalf and no thanks needed cuz we be patriots in harms way'. However, I can't or couldn't ever shake the feeling that some greater agenda is Always at play. Some long term thing that is intended to mold us and the world into their version of Right. I will never accept what is placed on the plate in front of me at face value... Sorry!
At times opening the can will get some human assets hurt.... it can't be helped but it is necessary, I feel... To answer your question... No, we won't... !!! Because we are so filled with misinformation and fear that we want them out there doing what ever is needed and the law be damned...

I think Feinstein's Committee [in this case] wants to curtail the long run aspect of all this rather than being focused on the narrow issue of torture and cover up... She has an agenda as well fostered by the Left and more perhaps moral view toward it all... Maybe...

Again, I don't know but like when it is going to rain, my bones alert me to that and I intuit in these kinds of things that we are all assets available for consumption by what the powers see as a more utopian world. Mostly by empowering their actions by our lack of interest or Political indoctrination.


Edit: I can't think of a time where someone in spookville wasn't involved in some illegal acts that made it to the news... Ole Ollie North and long before him... Kennedy's bay of piggies era stuff...

 

[werepossum]

Definitely we have. What is scary is that those agencies are essentially outside the scope of any sort of real oversight. Even if they say they are, you can never be sure. They will always have plausible deniability on their side. They are rogue agencies and I'm not really sure who they actually answer to, since it doesn't seem to be congress. The NSA/CIA/DHS budgets are hardly transparent which makes their intentions even less clear. I can only imagine the amount of corruption going on in there, it probably makes House of Cards look like child's play.

Agreed. In theory they are controlled by the executive branch and also accountable to Congress. In reality I have my doubts that either can exert much influence on them.

I recall the Committee chaired by Frank Church for the Senate and Pike in the House. The ones that had the hearings on what was going on with the spooks and prompted the establishment of the current Senate and House Intelligence Committees. I recall that it was said almost all of the Ford Administration's top players did not want folks to testify. Rummy was at the heart of that non disclosure scenario if my subsequent readings were accurate.. that was in '75/'76 ish.
Now fast forward to 9/11 time frame... and Cheney saying on TV we had to use what ever 'dark' methods... his words... that are available to us... AND it went by like 'right on brother'.

I say the above because I do believe our spooky folks and the folks they bring into the groups to follow in the same foot steps do so for reasons that are not directly related to the issues that prompt their overt attempts to let ordinary folks in on the current or obvious game plan... They cover their butts by these alerts... IOW, something is afoot or ok boys let's put out some 'we're the good guys doing work on your behalf and no thanks needed cuz we be patriots in harms way'. However, I can't or couldn't ever shake the feeling that some greater agenda is Always at play. Some long term thing that is intended to mold us and the world into their version of Right. I will never accept what is placed on the plate in front of me at face value... Sorry!
At times opening the can will get some human assets hurt.... it can't be helped but it is necessary, I feel... To answer your question... No, we won't... !!! Because we are so filled with misinformation and fear that we want them out there doing what ever is needed and the law be damned...

I think Feinstein's Committee [in this case] wants to curtail the long run aspect of all this rather than being focused on the narrow issue of torture and cover up... She has an agenda as well fostered by the Left and more perhaps moral view toward it all... Maybe...

Again, I don't know but like when it is going to rain, my bones alert me to that and I intuit in these kinds of things that we are all assets available for consumption by what the powers see as a more utopian world. Mostly by empowering their actions by our lack of interest or Political indoctrination.


Edit: I can't think of a time where someone in spookville wasn't involved in some illegal acts that made it to the news... Ole Ollie North and long before him... Kennedy's bay of piggies era stuff...

I think most people are willing to allow these agencies to do some underhanded things as part of their job. We accept these as being necessary. We USED to have some confidence that they were doing this because they had to and on our behalf. Now it's apparent that they are doing this to us, and just because they can. To what extent this is a new development versus a new awareness of it is certainly debatable.

The problem with Feinstein and her ilk is that they are completely on board with these things being done to us, they simply want to preserve the rights to which we are all entitled for themselves. Personally I think an entitled elite in power is even worse than runaway agencies spying on all of us. An openly tolerated untouchable ruling class is surely worse than an untouchable shadow government.

 

[marincounty]

In another thread all I heard was that Feinstein is a liberal? Which is it?
She has always been a conservative Democrat. She is also pretty honest. If she says the CIA is breaking the law I would pretty much bet on her vs the CiA.
If she were a Republican you guys would be singing her praises.
The Republicans on the committee claim they weren't even looking at the evidence.
They don't even want to know about the torture and other lawbreaking by our govt.
That is really troubling.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs...tions-split-the-senate-intelligence-committee
Senate Intelligence Committee ranking Republican Saxby Chambliss distanced himself Wednesday from Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein’s allegations that the CIA spied on her panel’s preparation of a classified report, saying that Republicans did not participate in the investigation into CIA’s interrogation activities.

“The Republican committee members on the Senate Intelligence Committee and staff were not involved in the underlying investigation of the detainee and interrogation report,” the Georgia Republican said. “We do not know the actual facts concerning the CIA’s alleged actions or all of the specific details about the actions of the committee staff.”

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

In another thread all I heard was that Feinstein is a liberal? Which is it?
She has always been a conservative Democrat. She is also pretty honest. If she says the CIA is breaking the law I would pretty much bet on her vs the CiA.
If she were a Republican you guys would be singing her praises.
The Republicans on the committee claim they weren't even looking at the evidence.
They don't even want to know about the torture and other lawbreaking by our govt.
That is really troubling.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs...tions-split-the-senate-intelligence-committee
Senate Intelligence Committee ranking Republican Saxby Chambliss distanced himself Wednesday from Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein’s allegations that the CIA spied on her panel’s preparation of a classified report, saying that Republicans did not participate in the investigation into CIA’s interrogation activities.

“The Republican committee members on the Senate Intelligence Committee and staff were not involved in the underlying investigation of the detainee and interrogation report,” the Georgia Republican said. “We do not know the actual facts concerning the CIA’s alleged actions or all of the specific details about the actions of the committee staff.”

Honest. Yeah. No abuses. Right.

I think Jon Stewart nails it.

spy on them not me.

 

[Angry Irishman]

Another straw man? Wow! You never stop do you?

I'll ask again since neither you or your butt buddy have answered; what has Feinstein lied about? Most same people don't mistrust everyone but I'm sure you disagree but like I said, most same people don't mistrust everyone. Usually mistrust comes from people lying to you. I haven't heard her tell a lie but that doesn't mean she hasn't lied to the American people so I'm asking for an example.

But I guess if you can't answer that or continue to ignore the question we will really know who is living in a fantasy land, aka a bubble.

You are beyond reach....you'd rather defend her to death rather than recognize the bigger issues. Party zealot as usual.

 

[ivwshane]

You are beyond reach....you'd rather defend her to death rather than recognize the bigger issues. Party zealot as usual.

And you would rather make up shit and use straw man arguments rather than just shutting the fuck up because you have nothing to add to the conversation.

Retarded as usual.

 

[LunarRay]

Agreed. In theory they are controlled by the executive branch and also accountable to Congress. In reality I have my doubts that either can exert much influence on them.


I think most people are willing to allow these agencies to do some underhanded things as part of their job. We accept these as being necessary. We USED to have some confidence that they were doing this because they had to and on our behalf. Now it's apparent that they are doing this to us, and just because they can. To what extent this is a new development versus a new awareness of it is certainly debatable.

The problem with Feinstein and her ilk is that they are completely on board with these things being done to us, they simply want to preserve the rights to which we are all entitled for themselves. Personally I think an entitled elite in power is even worse than runaway agencies spying on all of us. An openly tolerated untouchable ruling class is surely worse than an untouchable shadow government.

Well.... as a young lad I read a book... read lots of books as TV was not on our list of priorities or affordability. Among those books was one from this fellow Orwell... and from that time until this I have seen what I call the coming to fruition of the very notion of the book... A thesis of Reality!

I can see today the ministry of Love, Peace, Truth and Plenty well formed and in the same proportions as depicted by Orwell in the Inner and Outer Parties and us dumb idiots the Proles.
This creation of Orwell's is enabled in reality by utilization of the very tools slowly positioned into place and it is so obvious to me and so repugnant that words fail me when I listen to some folks actually aiding their own demise.... the brainwashing had begun long ago and is well established today...

So... I see stuff from a bias or as some might say defective thinking and I'm fine with that... I start out mistrusting... hehehehe When I was in Grad Skule I carried the mail and learned to never trust the puppies on the route... People and their motives much less.

 

[Angry Irishman]

And you would rather make up shit and use straw man arguments rather than just shutting the fuck up because you have nothing to add to the conversation.

Retarded as usual.

Yet again all I hear is noise and the usual catch phrases.....