A look at other capitalist healthcare systems

[Adn4n]

Sick around the world.

Having lived in Germany for a decade I can confirm what they say 100% about that country. As diverse as all these systems are, all countries have a few things in common: no profits, no bankruptcies.

 

[Craig234]

This is a documentary I've referred to before - recommended. And unfortunately, it will leave you with some concerns about how to do this right, even while we need to do it.

Perhaps the clearest message I saw was the contradiction in country after country of people who like the system but the governments underfund them, causing problems.

Doesn't that fit most of what the government does - occassionally when something gets good funding, it usually goes pretty well. Moon landings, an energy plant, interstate roads.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Having socialized medicine is just one component of the solution to the problem. The other problem is to fix the nation's economy. After all, it doesn't matter whether you have capitalist medicine or socialized medicine if the people or the government cannot pay for it.

What I find very striking about the nations selected for the documentary is that none of them are close to the United States' 17% of GDP and they all probably have better levels of coverage.

 

[TheSlamma]

Something that always irritate me about these. The question "How much do you have to pay for care" Answer is always "Free" The only people this is free to is people who don't pay taxes, to everyone else there is a price.

I think if I was to be part of any of these systems in their countries I'd want to be in Japan, outside of them needing to balance the prices to get the hospitals out of debt theirs sounds pretty good IMO.

Britain needs to figure out how to punish the hypochondriacs.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Something that always irritate me about these. The question "How much do you have to pay for care" Answer is always "Free" The only people this is free to is people who don't pay taxes, to everyone else there is a price.

Sorry, but you're being obtuse. Everyone understands the question is what thepatient pays directly for the treatment, and that while that's 'free' it's paid for by taxes.

It's like you going into a store and asking how much an item costs and when told $1.00, launching into a rant how that doesn't count for your taxes to pay for all the roads to get customers to the store, and defense spending to protect the store and the country, and the US Mint costs to print the dollar bill that's used, and so on.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Something that always irritate me about these. The question "How much do you have to pay for care" Answer is always "Free" The only people this is free to is people who don't pay taxes, to everyone else there is a price.

Sorry, but you're being obtuse. Everyone understands the question is what thepatient pays directly for the treatment, and that while that's 'free' it's paid for by taxes.

It's like you going into a store and asking how much an item costs and when told $1.00, launching into a rant how that doesn't count for your taxes to pay for all the roads to get customers to the store, and defense spending to protect the store and the country, and the US Mint costs to print the dollar bill that's used, and so on.

lol

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Something that always irritate me about these. The question "How much do you have to pay for care" Answer is always "Free" The only people this is free to is people who don't pay taxes, to everyone else there is a price.

Sorry, but you're being obtuse. Everyone understands the question is what thepatient pays directly for the treatment, and that while that's 'free' it's paid for by taxes.

It's like you going into a store and asking how much an item costs and when told $1.00, launching into a rant how that doesn't count for your taxes to pay for all the roads to get customers to the store, and defense spending to protect the store and the country, and the US Mint costs to print the dollar bill that's used, and so on.

lol

So if someone asks me how much it costs to drive on a non-toll road and I say "It's covered by the taxes I pay" then I answered incorrectly?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: TheSlammaBritain needs to figure out how to punish the hypochondriacs.

I do agree that any program needs to figure out a way to discourage hypochondriacs. People do need to pay some sort of a cost for doctors visits for that reason. I suspect that the needed charge wouldn't need to be very high ($50 for the first visit for each new matter or something like that).

 

[Uhtrinity]

Great documentary, really puts the different systems in perspective with ours.

 

[JS80]

lol all homogeneous asian or white countries of course it will work in a fail sort of way. load those countries up with the same demographics as the US, watch it come crashing down.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Something that always irritate me about these. The question "How much do you have to pay for care" Answer is always "Free" The only people this is free to is people who don't pay taxes, to everyone else there is a price.

Well, let's see...in the USA you pay:

Taxes for Medicare that you're not entitled to use...yet

Rapidly rising premiums to cover profits/increasing costs

Rising costs/copays to cover losses from uninsured patients or medical bankruptcies

And if your employer covers your premiums, that's money they deducted from your salary before you receive your gross.

In the US, you pay more for less.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: JS80
lol all homogeneous asian or white countries of course it will work in a fail sort of way. load those countries up with the same demographics as the US, watch it come crashing down.

Why does that matter?

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: JS80
lol all homogeneous asian or white countries of course it will work in a fail sort of way. load those countries up with the same demographics as the US, watch it come crashing down.

Why does that matter?

JS80 spares no opportunity to be a racist.

 

[MovingTarget]

Seems to be a pretty good documentary for the average joe to get a glimpse into other ways of structuring healthcare. However, it isn't very in-depth for those who like dealing with the details.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: JS80
lol all homogeneous asian or white countries of course it will work in a fail sort of way. load those countries up with the same demographics as the US, watch it come crashing down.

wtf? :disgust:

 

[BansheeX]

Originally posted by: Adn4n
Sick around the world.

Having lived in Germany for a decade I can confirm what they say 100% about that country. As diverse as all these systems are, all countries have a few things in common: no profits, no bankruptcies.

But what about bankruptcy on a national level? One thing these examples in Europe always fail to question after saying that they have better health stats than us is: at what cost? What are they giving up elsewhere to enable that for such a period of time up until now? For some countries, it's national defense, although I'll agree that our idea of national defense is quite bloated. For someone like Britain and Cuba and to a degree, us, it's their whole economy, their ability to be competitive in manufacturing. We're all living way beyond our means and borrowing from countries who are not. We have an ARM on our national debt at this point, it's ugly.

The fact of the matter is that we want to consume more than we are capable of producing. When you say that an 80 year old should get unlimited procedures on a national credit card, you need to realize how the interest on that borrowing murders the next generation's currency and quality of life. This is what we're doing, we're not turning people away once we reach our productive limit, we're not cutting somewhere else to finance health care, we want it all and more and we're borrowing in the short term and giving the future the bag of debt of interest obligations, for which higher taxes or inflation are required.

Think about what Britain's economic situation. They, unlike us, don't have the privilege of being the reserve currency, and their bond auctions are going horribly right now. The pound has just been slaughtered. It didn't always used to be this way. The socialists will try to say that something else is to blame, but we've seen this stuff over and over and over again. In Cuba, in the USSR, in old China. You can't guarantee employment, you can't guarantee services and goods through the government. It drives up costs, destroys incentive, because nobody's spending their own money and thus, they don't care how much of it they're spending.

Our medicare and SS systems have done the same thing to us. The people who started these schemes made out like utter bandits, lived great lives, but further down the line, it's just an unsustainable ponzi scheme that requires perpetually more credit. Money has to be saved in order to be loaned, and we can't all be borrowers.

 

[eits]

js80, i had no idea you had a morning show on tv

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: JS80
lol all homogeneous asian or white countries of course it will work in a fail sort of way. load those countries up with the same demographics as the US, watch it come crashing down.

wtf? :disgust:

Yeah.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: JS80
lol all homogeneous asian or white countries of course it will work in a fail sort of way. load those countries up with the same demographics as the US, watch it come crashing down.

wtf? :disgust:

JS80, the racist piece of shit strikes again.

 

[glenn1]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Something that always irritate me about these. The question "How much do you have to pay for care" Answer is always "Free" The only people this is free to is people who don't pay taxes, to everyone else there is a price.

Well, let's see...in the USA you pay:

Taxes for Medicare that you're not entitled to use...yet

Rapidly rising premiums to cover profits/increasing costs

Rising costs/copays to cover losses from uninsured patients or medical bankruptcies

And if your employer covers your premiums, that's money they deducted from your salary before you receive your gross.

In the US, you pay more for less.

Personally, I don't care what kind of public healtcare system gets passed. This is just bread and circuses to distract the masses. Anyone who honestly thinks that the government is going to provide improved healthcare services to the poor isn't thinking straight. The government will provide the same quality of care that they do for welfare recipients, or Katrina vicitims, or patients at VA hospitals. I can forsee the quality of healthcare for the poor actually going down after the government takes over. Let the suckers have their wonderful soylent green "universal healthcare" and take the issue off the table.

 

[Chaotic42]

I didn't look at the link because it's bed time, but the thing that keeps going over in my mind is that we are so sue happy here in the US that the first person who is "wronged" by any government health care program is going to sue the government.

What would happen if the US health care system denied a $50,000 procedure on a patient who would probably die in the next few days anyway?

I hope any health care package comes with brutal, sweeping tort reform.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: BansheeX

Originally posted by: Adn4n
Sick around the world.

Having lived in Germany for a decade I can confirm what they say 100% about that country. As diverse as all these systems are, all countries have a few things in common: no profits, no bankruptcies.

But what about bankruptcy on a national level? One thing these examples in Europe always fail to question after saying that they have better health stats than us is: at what cost? What are they giving up elsewhere to enable that for such a period of time up until now? For some countries, it's national defense, although I'll agree that our idea of national defense is quite bloated. For someone like Britain and Cuba and to a degree, us, it's their whole economy, their ability to be competitive in manufacturing. We're all living way beyond our means and borrowing from countries who are not. We have an ARM on our national debt at this point, it's ugly.

The fact of the matter is that we want to consume more than we are capable of producing. When you say that an 80 year old should get unlimited procedures on a national credit card, you need to realize how the interest on that borrowing murders the next generation's currency and quality of life. This is what we're doing, we're not turning people away once we reach our productive limit, we're not cutting somewhere else to finance health care, we want it all and more and we're borrowing in the short term and giving the future the bag of debt of interest obligations, for which higher taxes or inflation are required.

Think about what Britain's economic situation. They, unlike us, don't have the privilege of being the reserve currency, and their bond auctions are going horribly right now. The pound has just been slaughtered. It didn't always used to be this way. The socialists will try to say that something else is to blame, but we've seen this stuff over and over and over again. In Cuba, in the USSR, in old China. You can't guarantee employment, you can't guarantee services and goods through the government. It drives up costs, destroys incentive, because nobody's spending their own money and thus, they don't care how much of it they're spending.

Our medicare and SS systems have done the same thing to us. The people who started these schemes made out like utter bandits, lived great lives, but further down the line, it's just an unsustainable ponzi scheme that requires perpetually more credit. Money has to be saved in order to be loaned, and we can't all be borrowers.

But if you look at the numbers...

Health case as a percent of GDP, it includes all relevant factors.

We are spending way more, for way less.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Something that always irritate me about these. The question "How much do you have to pay for care" Answer is always "Free" The only people this is free to is people who don't pay taxes, to everyone else there is a price.

Well, let's see...in the USA you pay:

Taxes for Medicare that you're not entitled to use...yet

Rapidly rising premiums to cover profits/increasing costs

Rising costs/copays to cover losses from uninsured patients or medical bankruptcies

And if your employer covers your premiums, that's money they deducted from your salary before you receive your gross.

In the US, you pay more for less.

Personally, I don't care what kind of public healtcare system gets passed. This is just bread and circuses to distract the masses. Anyone who honestly thinks that the government is going to provide improved healthcare services to the poor isn't thinking straight. The government will provide the same quality of care that they do for welfare recipients, or Katrina vicitims, or patients at VA hospitals. I can forsee the quality of healthcare for the poor actually going down after the government takes over. Let the suckers have their wonderful soylent green "universal healthcare" and take the issue off the table.

Yeah right, that is why it has worked in Britain since the 1950's.

You wear your ignorance on your sleeve.

 

[miniMUNCH]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Something that always irritate me about these. The question "How much do you have to pay for care" Answer is always "Free" The only people this is free to is people who don't pay taxes, to everyone else there is a price.

Well, let's see...in the USA you pay:

Taxes for Medicare that you're not entitled to use...yet

Rapidly rising premiums to cover profits/increasing costs

Rising costs/copays to cover losses from uninsured patients or medical bankruptcies

And if your employer covers your premiums, that's money they deducted from your salary before you receive your gross.

In the US, you pay more for less.

Damn... for once I totally agree with you.:beer:

Seriously... I'm more than a bit alarmed by the present UHC bill, at least what i have read of it. But we do need to move to a less convoluted system that is not ultimately controlled by wall street (stock holders). Healthcare in Switzerland is expensive and fucking amazing (i have relatives in Switzerland) but still cheap compared to the US... wtf!? does not compute.

Defending the system we have today is just dumb. But that doesn't mean 'government pays all' UHC either... we could easily transition to something like Germany and Switzerland have by attacking inflated costs in the system. Institute profit margin limitations (I'd like to see hem mandated at no more than 5%... eventually widdle that down to make them non-profits if we can); limits on marketing expenditures for HI, medical systems, drug companies, salary structure limits for top executives, medical law reform, streamlined billing systems/regulations, and IT improvements.... boom, that is 25-30% off our costs right there. Then we can look hard at drug companies and their pricing structures.

Interestly... some of these things are in the UHC bill but they are not fleshed out at all which is what bugs me.


One thing we should do for sure, whatever we finally decide: Ignore whatever bitching and screaming comes from insurance companies on this whole topic.

 

[miniMUNCH]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Something that always irritate me about these. The question "How much do you have to pay for care" Answer is always "Free" The only people this is free to is people who don't pay taxes, to everyone else there is a price.

Well, let's see...in the USA you pay:

Taxes for Medicare that you're not entitled to use...yet

Rapidly rising premiums to cover profits/increasing costs

Rising costs/copays to cover losses from uninsured patients or medical bankruptcies

And if your employer covers your premiums, that's money they deducted from your salary before you receive your gross.

In the US, you pay more for less.

Personally, I don't care what kind of public healtcare system gets passed. This is just bread and circuses to distract the masses. Anyone who honestly thinks that the government is going to provide improved healthcare services to the poor isn't thinking straight. The government will provide the same quality of care that they do for welfare recipients, or Katrina vicitims, or patients at VA hospitals. I can forsee the quality of healthcare for the poor actually going down after the government takes over. Let the suckers have their wonderful soylent green "universal healthcare" and take the issue off the table.

Yeah... main reason i don't want government UHC... i'd rather have them legislate a system that is actually run and maintained by non-government entities. The government pretty sucks at everything they put their hand to.

They can't even drop a dollar on the sidewalk without a quarter going missing.