LOL! I don't f'n think so! Kerry makes Bush look like a rocket scientist!Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I find it sad to see soldiers mock one of the people that represent their only chance of going home outside of a bodybag.
Originally posted by: palehorse74
LOL! I don't f'n think so! Kerry makes Bush look like a rocket scientist!Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I find it sad to see soldiers mock one of the people that represent their only chance of going home outside of a bodybag.
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It is a funny joke, sadly enough John Kerry was totally right. I was in the military, and let me tell you... despite what everyone wants you to think that our Brave Men And Women Fighting Overseas are our best and brightest.... they're not.
More often then not they are badly educated kids from poor areas who either couldn't get into college, got someone pregnant, or got in trouble with the law. I count some of these people as some of my best friends... but they would all say the same thing. People don't join the military because Harvard is too far a commute.
They are so clearly a cut above America," Bill Carr, acting deputy undersecretary of defense for military personnel policy, said of today's recruits.
Carr bristles when he hears unfounded charges that the men and women entering the military are less educated, less affluent or less likely than other 18- to 24-year-olds to have alternatives to military service.
He rattled off examples of those myths and set the record straight for each one.
* Myth 1: Military recruits are less educated and have fewer work alternatives than other young Americans.
In fact, military recruits are far better educated than the general youth population, Carr said. More than 90 percent of recruits have a high school diploma, compared to about 75 percent of the U.S. youth population.
That's an important issue to the military, Carr said, because a traditional high school diploma is the single best indicator of a recruit's stick-to-it-ness and likelihood of successfully adjusting to military service. Recruits with a high school diploma have a 70 percent probability of completing a three-year enlistment versus a 50 percent chance for nongraduates.
The military has exceeded the 90-percent benchmark for recruits with high school diplomas every year since 1983, Carr noted.
* Myth 2: The military tends to attract people with lower aptitudes.
Recruits actually have much higher average aptitudes than the general youth population, Carr said. In fiscal 2005, 67 percent of recruits scored above the 60th percentile on the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. The test is designed so that the average young person will score 50 percent, he explained.
But high achievement on the test isn't new, Carr said. Sixty percent of new enlistees have scored at or above the 50 percentile -- the military's benchmark for recruits -- every year since 1985.
* Myth 3: The military attracts a disproportionate number of poor or underprivileged youth.
In reality, military recruits mirror the U.S. population and are solidly middle class, Carr said. He cited a recent Heritage Foundation report that shows most recruits come from middle-class families, rather than poorer or wealthier ones. Patterns in recent years reinforce this trend, showing a slight dip in recruits from lower socioeconomic groups and a slight increase from upper-class groups, Carr said.
* Myth 4: A disproportionate number of recruits come from urban areas.
Inner cities are actually the most underrepresented area among new recruits, Carr said. Both suburban and rural areas are overrepresented, he said.
Originally posted by: palehorse74
LOL! I don't f'n think so! Kerry makes Bush look like a rocket scientist!Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I find it sad to see soldiers mock one of the people that represent their only chance of going home outside of a bodybag.
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: palehorse74
LOL! I don't f'n think so! Kerry makes Bush look like a rocket scientist!Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I find it sad to see soldiers mock one of the people that represent their only chance of going home outside of a bodybag.
How can you make a statement like that and expect anybody to take you seriously?
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Sorry Queasy, not a myth... and you don't know what you're talking about.
First of all, while about 15% more of them have high school diplomas then your average youth... 29% of americans hold a 4 year degree. The percentage of enlisted people with a 4 year degree? 4 percent. A four year degree is pretty much required for a decent job these days. Like I said, the military is ill educated.
Moreover, a large percentage of what the military considers "some college" or an associates degree is laughably bad. They offered classes on my ship, and you didn't need to do any work, go to class... nothing. Guess what? Take the final and everyone got A's. I've seen it myself. (hell, I got some of those worthless A's myself)
That article is also trying to use the ASVAB as a reliable test for relative aptitude compared the general population. If you have taken the ASVAB you would see why that is laughable. I scored in the 99th percentile on the ASVAB (which is as high as you can possibly score). Guess what? I'm not in the top 1% of America as far as aptitude goes... and I'm okay with that. That test is total crap. It asks you to do things like identify what a wrench looks like.
Also, the middle class comprises 64% of America. Of course it provides the most recruits. Then again, the pentagon's own data says that nearly two thirds of recruits come from zip codes that earn below the national average. Make your own decision on that one.
And who ever said that military people came from the city!? God, half my boat was filled with a bunch of crazy gun toting rednecks. Some of them were great guys, but they would be the first ones to tell you they were redneck through and through.
The Heritage Foundation is a poor... poor source to use for any kind of legitimate debate. It is on the extreme fringes of the right wing, and is little more then a propaganda mouthpiece. It is far better to use a source that has at least some claim to objective academic analysis.
Do you honestly expect enlisted men and women who come straight out of high school to have college degrees by the time they finish their enlistment period? I sure don't. I don't know the statistics but a good number of them join the military and continue their education once their enlistment period is done. Many of my classmates in college were like this as are many of my co-workers. My wife's cousin is in the Air Force and did a tour in Iraq. He went in straight out of high school and could make pretty good money in IT if he were to retire but he is happy with what he is doing now.Originally posted by: eskimospy
Sorry Queasy, not a myth... and you don't know what you're talking about.
First of all, while about 15% more of them have high school diplomas then your average youth... 29% of americans hold a 4 year degree. The percentage of enlisted people with a 4 year degree? 4 percent. A four year degree is pretty much required for a decent job these days. Like I said, the military is ill educated.
Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Sorry Queasy, not a myth... and you don't know what you're talking about.
First of all, while about 15% more of them have high school diplomas then your average youth... 29% of americans hold a 4 year degree. The percentage of enlisted people with a 4 year degree? 4 percent. A four year degree is pretty much required for a decent job these days. Like I said, the military is ill educated.
Moreover, a large percentage of what the military considers "some college" or an associates degree is laughably bad. They offered classes on my ship, and you didn't need to do any work, go to class... nothing. Guess what? Take the final and everyone got A's. I've seen it myself. (hell, I got some of those worthless A's myself)
That article is also trying to use the ASVAB as a reliable test for relative aptitude compared the general population. If you have taken the ASVAB you would see why that is laughable. I scored in the 99th percentile on the ASVAB (which is as high as you can possibly score). Guess what? I'm not in the top 1% of America as far as aptitude goes... and I'm okay with that. That test is total crap. It asks you to do things like identify what a wrench looks like.
Also, the middle class comprises 64% of America. Of course it provides the most recruits. Then again, the pentagon's own data says that nearly two thirds of recruits come from zip codes that earn below the national average. Make your own decision on that one.
And who ever said that military people came from the city!? God, half my boat was filled with a bunch of crazy gun toting rednecks. Some of them were great guys, but they would be the first ones to tell you they were redneck through and through.
The Heritage Foundation is a poor... poor source to use for any kind of legitimate debate. It is on the extreme fringes of the right wing, and is little more then a propaganda mouthpiece. It is far better to use a source that has at least some claim to objective academic analysis.
care to back that up? I know for a fact that in the air force to get to a senior NCO a 4 year degree is pretty much required. a E-6 has a much better chance to make E-7 when his promotion package is infront of the board, it not just based on test scores. Also you have to take into account in other branches like the Navy and Army and Marines the sailors and soldiers are unable to attend college classes due to being on ship or out in the field. those branches know this and have much better college incintives for their troops to use after they get out of the military. Oh and i got out as a E-5 and i earned my BA at the university of North Dakota while stationed in Grand Forks. Oh and all of the officers i served under had their 4 year degree, just incase you forgot about that being a requirement for officers.
Originally posted by: brandonbull
Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Sorry Queasy, not a myth... and you don't know what you're talking about.
First of all, while about 15% more of them have high school diplomas then your average youth... 29% of americans hold a 4 year degree. The percentage of enlisted people with a 4 year degree? 4 percent. A four year degree is pretty much required for a decent job these days. Like I said, the military is ill educated.
Moreover, a large percentage of what the military considers "some college" or an associates degree is laughably bad. They offered classes on my ship, and you didn't need to do any work, go to class... nothing. Guess what? Take the final and everyone got A's. I've seen it myself. (hell, I got some of those worthless A's myself)
That article is also trying to use the ASVAB as a reliable test for relative aptitude compared the general population. If you have taken the ASVAB you would see why that is laughable. I scored in the 99th percentile on the ASVAB (which is as high as you can possibly score). Guess what? I'm not in the top 1% of America as far as aptitude goes... and I'm okay with that. That test is total crap. It asks you to do things like identify what a wrench looks like.
Also, the middle class comprises 64% of America. Of course it provides the most recruits. Then again, the pentagon's own data says that nearly two thirds of recruits come from zip codes that earn below the national average. Make your own decision on that one.
And who ever said that military people came from the city!? God, half my boat was filled with a bunch of crazy gun toting rednecks. Some of them were great guys, but they would be the first ones to tell you they were redneck through and through.
The Heritage Foundation is a poor... poor source to use for any kind of legitimate debate. It is on the extreme fringes of the right wing, and is little more then a propaganda mouthpiece. It is far better to use a source that has at least some claim to objective academic analysis.
care to back that up? I know for a fact that in the air force to get to a senior NCO a 4 year degree is pretty much required. a E-6 has a much better chance to make E-7 when his promotion package is infront of the board, it not just based on test scores. Also you have to take into account in other branches like the Navy and Army and Marines the sailors and soldiers are unable to attend college classes due to being on ship or out in the field. those branches know this and have much better college incintives for their troops to use after they get out of the military. Oh and i got out as a E-5 and i earned my BA at the university of North Dakota while stationed in Grand Forks. Oh and all of the officers i served under had their 4 year degree, just incase you forgot about that being a requirement for officers.
So to make E7 or above in the Airforce you need a 4 year degree? That shouldn't be hard to do for some that has spent 15+ years in the military. So E7 and above Airforce personnel account for what percentage of the troops stationed in Iraq? I would guess less than 15% of the troops in Iraq has a 4 yr degree.
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
The guy is a total douche, and the best thing to ever happen to the Republican party, but I don't believe he genuinely meant to insult our troops with his failed attempt at biting humor.
He may not have meant to insult the troops, but he did.
He further insulted them with his refusal to apologize and throwing a full nutty at his press conference.
Instead of defusing the situation he only escalated it.
nuance
Why do our troops need an apology, are they babies???
Originally posted by: eskimospy
What do you need backed up? I checked the numbers even against the Oh So Accurate Heritage Foundation's report and they said I was actually wrong. According to them only 2.5% of enlisted members have bachelor's degrees. I was 1.5% too generous. And of course most officers have 4 year degrees. You have to have one unless you are a CWO or LDO. Officers aren't part of the discussion here though, we're talking about enlisted.
In the navy at least, the E-7 boards looked for an associates degree, not a bachelor's degree. In fact the educational mission statement of the CNO is for all enlisted to get a 2 year degree, not a 4 year. The navy doesn't even offer any upper division coursework. Also, why the hell would someone with a 4 year degree want to continue as enlisted? There are plenty of officer programs for enlisted members with degrees. (which undoubtedly contributes to the derth of enlistees with 4 year degrees.)
I spent a little over 6 years in the navy and got out as an E-5 as well. You're right that it's tough to get a degree while in the service. That fact isn't really relevant to the discussion though.
I don't even see what the problem is here. For people with this relatively low set of skills, the military is an awesome deal. I was making close to $50,000 (adjusted for non-taxed allowances) with only a high school diploma. With free health and dental care!There aren't too many jobs where I could have done that.
Doesn't change the fact that most people with better options don't want to join.
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
The guy is a total douche, and the best thing to ever happen to the Republican party, but I don't believe he genuinely meant to insult our troops with his failed attempt at biting humor.
He may not have meant to insult the troops, but he did.
He further insulted them with his refusal to apologize and throwing a full nutty at his press conference.
Instead of defusing the situation he only escalated it.
nuance
Why do our troops need an apology, are they babies???
All Babies Happy now???
11-1-2006 Kerry apologizes for remark about troops
Thrust into the midst of the midterm election campaign, Sen. John Kerry apologized Wednesday to "any service member, family member or American who was offended" by remarks deemed by Republicans and Democrats alike to be insulting to U.S. forces in Iraq.
Six days before the election, the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee said he sincerely regretted his words were "misinterpreted to imply anything negative about those in uniform."
Originally posted by: Queasy
And here I thought that Kerry made it crystal clear yesterday that he apologized to no one.
Botched joke. Botched response. And now a botched non-apology.
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: Queasy
And here I thought that Kerry made it crystal clear yesterday that he apologized to no one.
Botched joke. Botched response. And now a botched non-apology.
I guess he just lost your vote. Oh, he's not running for anything. Umm, too bad for you, I guess you'll just have to continue whining about it on the internet.