A Muslim's perspective

[Jaskalas]

Meanwhile a 3 year old Muslim girl yearns to kill infidels...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjbJnZUJTYU&NR=1

Looks to me that someone has already created an image for her to aspire to. How nice.

That is the exact problem. The theme remains the same, it is both foreign and violent. That is NOT American, but that is America's public image of Islam. American Muslims will be attacked for that foreign image.

Yet even you, the opponent of that image, cling to it and paint the OP with it. Given the situation how could he not feel alienated? What identity should he turn to? It will be America's image of Islam that guides him.

You help shape him into the very thing you oppose.

Jaskalas, I have no problem with the mosque in NYC nor with any Muslim that wants to peacefully co-exist with non-Muslims (a vast majority). But, as you can see...there are deep-seated issues at play here that's obviously not confined to Indonesia...and the problem keeps growing bigger and bigger every day. This isn't our problem to feel less threatened by Islam...it's their problem to be less threatening.

This is not just their problem. This is OUR problem, together.

September 11th ripped America and Islam apart. The wound has only festered since that day. NO ONE has addressed it. NO ONE is working to heal it. The consequences are approaching for many people on both sides. Are we not supposed to stop it, will we not work towards that goal?

This is our country. We have the power to do whatever we deem necessary to heal this wound.

Can they do it alone? They have the potential, sure, but these past nine years have shown that we have drifted away from peace. They are only human, their strength has its limits. They need our help.

Those who do not threaten us must be empowered. They must become the public image of Islam. They must be rewarded for those efforts and given advantages over their violent brethren. We cannot do it without them, but they cannot be expected to do it without us. We cannot display a foreign and violent image of Islam and hope for them to do better.

If this is but a race to the bottom then we will surely find genocide. Do not let it come to that. Be an American. Help your fellow Americans find the way back to the top. Help them rise as a peaceful people.

 

[kylebisme]

Apparently you're unable to quote them either...

Right, nobody can quote actual translations of Qur'an to defend arguments connecting it to terrorism, not me nor anyone else, because such associations false. That is why people have to resort to butchered and truncated nonsense rather that commonly accepted translations such as those presented here. Anyone could quote from such sources all day long, but neither you nor anyone else can quote them to back up your ignorant bigotry.

 

[Infohawk]

Right, nobody can quote actual translations of Qur'an to defend arguments connecting it to terrorism, not me nor anyone else, because such associations false. That is why people have to resort to butchered and truncated nonsense rather that commonly accepted translations such as those presented here. Anyone could quote from such sources all day long, but neither you nor anyone else can quote them to back up your ignorant bigotry.

From your link.

098.006
YUSUFALI: Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.
SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of men.

This is sure lovey-dovey stuff we're talking about here...

PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Do you know what scourge means? It means to whip. That other translation was totally off base when it translated it as "beat"....

 

[piasabird]

You are welcome to voice your opinion. However, I should warn you that some of the posters here think that all religion is bad. I think the problem is that there is not enough of a muslim voice from people like yourself. If all Americans see is people burning the American Flag, dragging our soldiers through the street and other Anti-Western or Anti-American demonstrations, then how are Americans suppose to form a favorable opinions of Muslims. Muslims as a group have attacked our country and destroyed our buildings. It is like they sent us an invitation to make war against them. If we do nothing, then we are just inviting them to attack again.

Some people feel insulted that some muslims want to build a Mosque so close to our center of Commerce for our entire country. It would be like us going to Isreal or Saudia Arabia or Iraq or Syria or Iran and building a world trade center right next to your most Holy Mosque in a blatant attempt to insult your faith and your religion.

There is not really anything wrong with building a Mosque or a Church or a Synagogue. Perhaps if we knew how more Muslims thought we might understand them better.

Remember that Americans have a long history of demonstrating against and for different things in our country. We consider this to be freedom of speech. We would protect freedom of speech whether you are a Nazi, a Muslim, an Athies, A jew or a communist, or a socialist, or a freedom fighter, as long as it is peaceful. This principal protects people's right to speak out without being prosecuted by the government. This would not be allowed in some Muslim countries.

When David wanted to build a temple to house the Ark, God told him he was not acceptable because of the much blood that he had shed of his fellow man. God does not look favorable upon violence and the shedding of blood. So many people in so many countries have used religion as an excuse to go to war and kill innocent people just so they can have power. This is not a true act of faith, nor is it favorable in the eyes of God. Hell stands ready to accept all those who murder and kill.

 

[soulcougher73]

boomerang, your points only go as far back as 50 years. For every point you have raised, tens can be quoted across history from the opposite side.

Even if I were to go on your list, 13 points represent a totality of how many individuals? 100? 200? I assume you dont think the entire country of Afghanistan committed 9/11 and not everyone in Iran was responsible for the Embassy occurence (which in itself has a LOT of history).

I understand the negative sentiments coming out of uneducated people who listen to power-hungry bad religious leaders in impoverished natiions (towards America and other Western powers). I do NOT understand the negative sentiments coming out of a first-world country with education Americans living in a secular country having daily interactions with American Muslims.

You can hate on the illiterate people who do NOT follow the religion well, and I'll join you in your hate. But it is not fair to categorise your fellow American Muslims, and the other hundreds of millions who just want to live peacefully.

This is not true. Maybe in NY or other large cities it is. But in the midwest or smaller towns it is not. I think i know maybe 2 Muslim's here in Kansas City. Both are decent and respectful people. But i would venture to say the majority of the U.S. does not interact with Muslims on a daily basis. Or even a yearly basis at that.

 

[totalnoob]

God does not look favorable upon violence and the shedding of blood.

..not including dozens of cities destroyed where actual numbers weren't given. It also doesn't include the global flood where this god of infinite mercy drowned EVERYONE ON THE PLANET except an old drunk and his family.

 

[soulcougher73]

How do you know this? Just because it hasnt been done? What is even the probability of a German culture center and a Holocaust Museum being in the same vicinity. That analogy, my friend, is fairy tale arguemnt. This is the Newt Gingrich reasoning, you just replaced Nazi sign in his statement with a German cultural center.

Again, I ask you, how much further is further? And what are your thoughts about the Warren Street mosque and the lack of interest that mosque generated?

Was this mosque built pre 9/11 or after?

 

[EagleKeeper]

You guys need to hug it out? :sneaky:

Tag team

 

[soulcougher73]

Same way I dont have to go inside a strip club to know that naked ladies are in there.

So what you are saying is you already know the truth of the numbers linked to Islamic killings? Hence no reason to see them? Am i understanding you right?

 

[manimal]

I have actually read this entire post after spending the weekend away with the wife for her birthday.

I want to first thank the OP for coming in here for some perspective. I agree with many points the OP made and disagreed with many others. The facts stand that we live in a very polarizing world. The vilification of dissenting views has become the norm and not the exception.
First I would like to address the oft repeated fallacy of equating islamic extremism to nazi germany. Once again people throw that out without understanding history. If Ismlam was a central country-government and radical islam was their state sponsored military solution to foreign policy then your false analogy would be correct. Otherwise its just drivel.... While some states like Iran do sponsor some terrorist organizations those instances are the exception.

Again the insensitivity argument is valid only if you agree to the fallacy that islam = extremism.. again an intellectual fallacy...

I will be the first in line to decry the norm in most Muslim countries that keeps women as second class citizens. I abhor the violence used to suppress other religions in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran. I will also be the first inline to throw stones at ourselves for our systematic destruction of the Indigenous populations here in North America and the history of hate in our struggles with Civil rights.

If we look at Morocco and Iran to a large extent then we are seeing many countries and people at a crossroads. In Morocco sex outside of marriage is becoming commonplace. Cost of living has gone up to the extent that women are entering the workplace and have an equal say in the direction of their families. As the Muslim world progresses towards these things the more religious extremists will cling to terrorism. In some ways Islamic terrorism as we know it today is a byproduct of the maturity of the islamic religion and its diminishing role as authoritarian guide and to the transition of spiritual guide in modern times.

I hope the OP stays in AT and contributes to our melting pot. While I disagree with many here I have come to enjoy our coffee shop conversations and the challenging nature of the discourse. As long as you have thick skin and can take the occasional abuse we can agree to disagree..

If the OP does stay I would like his opinion of the evolving state of the role of the woman in mainstream muslim society?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

That is the exact problem. The theme remains the same, it is both foreign and violent. That is NOT American, but that is America's public image of Islam. American Muslims will be attacked for that foreign image.

As Americans are attacked for their image. Life is not fair.

Yet even you, the opponent of that image, cling to it and paint the OP with it. Given the situation how could he not feel alienated? What identity should he turn to? It will be America's image of Islam that guides him.

I don't cling to an image of radical Islam (it is what it is...and it's in the news every damn day) and I certainly didn't paint the OP with it as he's obviously part of the "vast majority" category of those who want to peacefully co-exist with non-Muslims. If he somehow feels alienated by the opinions of a few people (who agree with burning the Koran) and is confused about what identity should he turn to...I'm sorry...but that's his problem, not mine.

He's responsible for who he is, how he feels, and how he reacts to those feelings...not me. Remember...I'm OK with the mosque in NYC and I oppose the burning of the Koran. Painting me as somehow even remotely responsible for his personal issues is pure BS.[/QUOTE]

You help shape him into the very thing you oppose.

I do no such thing...he's responsible for himself.

This is not just their problem. This is OUR problem, together.

It only becomes our problem when radical Islam chooses to make it our problem.

September 11th ripped America and Islam apart. The wound has only festered since that day. NO ONE has addressed it. NO ONE is working to heal it. The consequences are approaching for many people on both sides. Are we not supposed to stop it, will we not work towards that goal?
This is our country. We have the power to do whatever we deem necessary to heal this wound.

A noble cause...how do you suppose we should go about doing this? We talked to that pastor from Gainesville and convinced him he shouldn't burn the Koran and he didn't. Meanwhile we're on our 3rd day of riots in Afghanistan and 2 are dead. Maybe you should share your thoughts with those guys and see where that gets you.

Can they do it alone? They have the potential, sure, but these past nine years have shown that we have drifted away from peace. They are only human, their strength has its limits. They need our help.

They are only human? Seriously.

Those who do not threaten us must be empowered. They must become the public image of Islam. They must be rewarded for those efforts and given advantages over their violent brethren. We cannot do it without them, but they cannot be expected to do it without us. We cannot display a foreign and violent image of Islam and hope for them to do better.

How shall we empower them? How shall we reward them for being nice little Muslims? FYI..."we" are not displaying a foreign and violent image of Islam...radical Islam is doing this...they do it 24 hours/day, 7 days/week all around the world....let's be clear on this.

If this is but a race to the bottom then we will surely find genocide. Do not let it come to that. Be an American. Help your fellow Americans find the way back to the top. Help them rise as a peaceful people.

Genocide? You mean like killing over 1.5mm Christian Armenians by Turkish Muslims? Or perhaps the 13,750+ Christians who have been killed by Muslims in northern Nigeria since the introduction of Sharia laws in 2001. Tell me specifically...just how does one go about helping them "rise as a peaceful people"?

 

[Number1]

Rather, I said that associations people draw between Islam and terrorism are mostly false, which is why nobody can quote actual English translations of Qur'an to defend arguments to the contrary.

Only fucktard like you who associate terrorism with your own government can't see the connection between the Muslim religion and the unspeakable horrors committed every day in it's name.
Your conspiracy theory blinders have rendered you completely blind.

 

[L00PY]

I dont know anybody that supports westboro. I know in general this group is denounced bu christians. They dont fund it and they dont support it. To my knowledge they have yet to kill anyone or blow anything up. I cant say that radical islam and westboro are on the same level.

I never said being being muslim made you part of al qaeda.

But my point is that distinction isn't being made and that for many being Muslim is enough to group you with a terrorist group that claims to follow Islam. Claiming that a Muslim community center run by a Sufi Islamist is insensitive because it's a couple blocks away from Ground Zero where Al-Qaeda attacked makes as much sense as saying an Anglican Church built near a Women's center is insensitive because the Catholic Church doesn't allow women to be ordained.

Painting all Muslims with the colors of Al-Qaeda makes as much sense as painting all Christians with the colors of the Westboro Baptist Church (or the Christian Identity if you'd prefer a more violent example).

 

[soulcougher73]

charrison, I have addressed everything you wrote about. But I will entertain you with a response just to you.

What would you have the Muslim community do to police mad men? The American police/security system failed to stop the 12 who committed 9/11. How should we as a community do better? I am more than open to suggestions. But I will disregard any suggestion that puts me in direct conflict with these mad men. I value my life, and dont want to be a victim of a suicide bomb.

Why do a lot of people find in insulting? Because they think Islam is responsible for 9/11? If so, the people are wrong, and I would encourage them to not ascribe the action of 12 terrorists to Islam. These people may have been Muslims, but they also "existed" in the United States. Why are ALL Muslims and only Muslims responsible for their actions?

Again, for the umpteenth time, what suggestion do you have on the new location of the mosque? Please note that another mosque existed on Warren Street for YEARS before the plans for this mosque.

The media and circus do not have a different opinion. There are quite a number of people supporting the mosque standing outside on Fridays. However, the entire frenzy at 2pm Friday is a circus. Thats what I was saying.

Had 9/11 been commited by white male bald midgets in the age range of 18-30 do you not think we would associate all while male bald midgets in the age range of 18-30 with terrorism? Of course we would. You may be innocent but you will be profiled for the rest of you life unless you do something to break/change that profile or pattern.

You dont like being profiled then maybe Muslims should take back their religion and out all radical muslims to be dealth with by the law. Dont be afraid of suicide bombers. Be the change you want in the world.

And onto the Warren Street mosque. If it existed before 9/11 your point is moot and has no feet to walk on. So you might want to drop that talking point. Its not going to go anywhere.

 

[classy]

This is solely about respect for those who lost loved ones. If you can't even bend a little to appease the broken hearted your religion ain't worth much. You can build a mosque 12 blocks away and gain some respect of many showing kindness in a way that shows Islam is not all about domination. That 9/11 act also helped bring down the economy of this nation as well. I could go on and on, but I don't care about your damn everyday prayers and lip service. Do a damn act that would show you want to earn peoples respect. I find it funny that even if you move the mosque your followers would respond in violence to our troops. But here you are posting some muslim perspective. The hell with your muslim perspective, why not try being humane for once.

 

[kylebisme]

This is sure lovey-dovey stuff we're talking about here...

The fiery hell stuff Qur'an doesn't support any connection to terrorism any more the that in the Gospels does to any form of violence.

Do you know what scourge means? It means to whip. That other translation was totally off base when it translated it as "beat"....

Both are arguably misleading according to many Muslim scholars, and used as and excuse for domestic abuse by others, but it's far from an endorsement of terrorism regardless.

 

[Moonbeam]

This is solely about respect for those who lost loved ones. If you can't even bend a little to appease the broken hearted your religion ain't worth much. You can build a mosque 12 blocks away and gain some respect of many showing kindness in a way that shows Islam is not all about domination. That 9/11 act also helped bring down the economy of this nation as well. I could go on and on, but I don't care about your damn everyday prayers and lip service. Do a damn act that would show you want to earn peoples respect. I find it funny that even if you move the mosque your followers would respond in violence to our troops. But here you are posting some muslim perspective. The hell with your muslim perspective, why not try being humane for once.

Why not try being am American for once. You to your idea of humane, others to their own ideas. You con't have any fucking lock on humane.

 

[L00PY]

Had 9/11 been commited by white male bald midgets in the age range of 18-30 do you not think we would associate all while male bald midgets in the age range of 18-30 with terrorism? Of course we would. You may be innocent but you will be profiled for the rest of you life unless you do something to break/change that profile or pattern.

If I'm not mistaken, both the Oklahoma City Bombing and Centennial Olympic Park bombing was committed by white male Christians, aged 25-40. You could even argue that the Irish Catholic upbringing proves that all those people are a violent bunch, with the numerous IRA bombings and all. Do you associate all Christians with an act of terrorism on US soil that caused 800+ casualties?

Would you allow a YMCA to be built near a blast site where 300+ buildings were damaged in a 16 block radius? Why don't you want what is essentially a Muslim Y built a couple blocks away? Wouldn't that be doing something to break/change that profile or pattern? A Park51 trained chef? A point guard that practiced nights shooting hoops at Park51? Are those things so frightening?

 

[QuantumPion]

To be honest, I have no support or no non-support for Hamas. They are not representative of Islam. As a political party, I wish them success in their political endeavors, making life better for Palestinians and contributing to peace in the Middle East. Being noted as a terrorist organization by many governments, I hope they take a chapter out of IRA's book and cease activities that result in deaths of innocent people.

I just wanted to point out that it is Hamas' stated, open goal to completely destroy the state of Israel, it is their charter. Whether they are representative of Islam as a whole, I don't know. But there is no debate on the matter that Hamas IS a terrorist organization, and that you wishing their success only reinforce the American viewpoint that there is no such thing as a "moderate muslim". Merely those whom actively participate in terrorist activities, and those whom passively support such goals.

 

[Jaskalas]

I don't cling to an image of radical Islam (it is what it is...and it's in the news every damn day) and I certainly didn't paint the OP with it as he's obviously part of the "vast majority" category of those who want to peacefully co-exist with non-Muslims.

Genocide? You mean like killing over 1.5mm Christian Armenians by Turkish Muslims? Or perhaps the 13,750+ Christians who have been killed by Muslims in northern Nigeria since the introduction of Sharia laws in 2001. Tell me specifically...just how does one go about helping them "rise as a peaceful people"?

I'm trying to reconcile these two quotes. In my mind they are a contradiction. We're talking about Americans but you present us with some of the worst foreign violence in the world.

 

[classy]

If I'm not mistaken, both the Oklahoma City Bombing and Centennial Olympic Park bombing was committed by white male Christians, aged 25-40. You could even argue that the Irish Catholic upbringing proves that all those people are a violent bunch, with the numerous IRA bombings and all. Do you associate all Christians with an act of terrorism on US soil that caused 800+ casualties?

Would you allow a YMCA to be built near a blast site where 300+ buildings were damaged in a 16 block radius? Why don't you want what is essentially a Muslim Y built a couple blocks away? Wouldn't that be doing something to break/change that profile or pattern? A Park51 trained chef? A point guard that practiced nights shooting hoops at Park51? Are those things so frightening?

OKC bombing by McVeigh was some militia against the government type stuff. It was not some christian strike.

 

[kylebisme]

I just wanted to point out that it is Hamas' stated, open goal to completely destroy the state of Israel, it is their charter.

Considering the fact that the "Hamas Charter" was written decades ago by some guy who did little else of notice, and it was never ratified, I doubt Routan was referencing anything of the sort.

OKC bombing by McVeigh was some militia against the government type stuff. It was not some christian strike.

It was a "Christian strike" to the extent that 9/11 was a "Muslim strke" anyway, yet neither are representative of religions or their followers in general.

 

[OutHouse]

do you follow and practice sharia law?

 

[OutHouse]

If I'm not mistaken, both the Oklahoma City Bombing and Centennial Olympic Park bombing was committed by white male Christians, aged 25-40. You could even argue that the Irish Catholic upbringing proves that all those people are a violent bunch, with the numerous IRA bombings and all. Do you associate all Christians with an act of terrorism on US soil that caused 800+ casualties?

Would you allow a YMCA to be built near a blast site where 300+ buildings were damaged in a 16 block radius? Why don't you want what is essentially a Muslim Y built a couple blocks away? Wouldn't that be doing something to break/change that profile or pattern? A Park51 trained chef? A point guard that practiced nights shooting hoops at Park51? Are those things so frightening?

yup you are mistaken. OKC was a milita beef against the government and not carried out as a religious attack.

 

[cumhail]

Had 9/11 been commited by white male bald midgets in the age range of 18-30 do you not think we would associate all while male bald midgets in the age range of 18-30 with terrorism? Of course we would. You may be innocent but you will be profiled for the rest of you life unless you do something to break/change that profile or pattern.

So then you're saying that you (in fact you and everyone you count with your "we") associate all white male average-height men with short reddish hair in age range with terrorism because of Timothy McVeigh? Everyone who looks somewhat like his co-conspirators, Michael Fortier and Terry Nichols? Everyone who looks kinda like Eric Rudolph?