A Muslim's perspective

[soulcougher73]

If I'm not mistaken, both the Oklahoma City Bombing and Centennial Olympic Park bombing was committed by white male Christians, aged 25-40. You could even argue that the Irish Catholic upbringing proves that all those people are a violent bunch, with the numerous IRA bombings and all. Do you associate all Christians with an act of terrorism on US soil that caused 800+ casualties?

Would you allow a YMCA to be built near a blast site where 300+ buildings were damaged in a 16 block radius? Why don't you want what is essentially a Muslim Y built a couple blocks away? Wouldn't that be doing something to break/change that profile or pattern? A Park51 trained chef? A point guard that practiced nights shooting hoops at Park51? Are those things so frightening?

My point was more people are going to be profiled wether its a very defined thing just as single while bald midget male from 18-30 OR very vague just as brown skinned Muslim looking people. Trying to find a white male christian in the U.S. is sort of a niddle in a haystack. Most likely the profile is going to fail since its not frequent enough and the profile is limited to white christian male.

Just have to have tough skin and not worry about profiling. If you do have a problem then work to change the profile instead of just bitching about it. A profile is just a pattern of observed facts and frequency. But they can be changed.

 

[kylebisme]

yup you are mistaken. OKC was a milita beef against the government and not carried out as a religious attack.

As I explained above:

It was a "Christian strike" to the extent that 9/11 was a "Muslim strke" anyway, yet neither are representative of religions or their followers in general.

 

[OutHouse]

Right, nobody can quote actual translations of Qur'an to defend arguments connecting it to terrorism, not me nor anyone else, because such associations false. That is why people have to resort to butchered and truncated nonsense rather that commonly accepted translations such as those presented here. Anyone could quote from such sources all day long, but neither you nor anyone else can quote them to back up your ignorant bigotry.

lol. looks like infohawk just bitch slapped you.

 

[kylebisme]

Looks like you're overlooking my reply to his response:

The fiery hell stuff Qur'an doesn't support any connection to terrorism any more the that in the Gospels does to any form of violence.


Both are arguably misleading according to many Muslim scholars, and used as and excuse for domestic abuse by others, but it's far from an endorsement of terrorism regardless.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I'm trying to reconcile these two quotes. In my mind they are a contradiction. We're talking about Americans but you present us with some of the worst foreign violence in the world.

Perhaps it would be best if you get very specific on exactly how I painted the OP with the image of radical Islam. I'm flabbergasted as to how a rational human being could possibly come to this conclusion...especially in light of me clearly saying otherwise.

Radical Islam is pervasive, it's significant, it's growing, and it's here in this country. You apparently want to make a curious distinction between radical Islam in America as opposed to the rest of the world. Well, I don't understand how that's possible after 911, Ft. Hood and many thwarted incidents. But maybe I misunderstand you...please explain.

Perhaps you can also answer my previous question: Tell me specifically...just how does one go about helping them "rise as a peaceful people"?

 

[OutHouse]

As I explained above:

i read your link and OKC and 9/11 aren't even close to being comparable.

 

[soulcougher73]

So then you're saying that you (in fact you and everyone you count with your "we") associate all white male average-height men with short reddish hair in age range with terrorism because of Timothy McVeigh? Everyone who looks somewhat like his co-conspirators, Michael Fortier and Terry Nichols? Everyone who looks kinda like Eric Rudolph?

In this country that kind of profile would not be very helpful. You'd have to have something more specific. Now if those people were in say China. They would stand out a lot more and would be easier to observe.

Profiling is only as good as the profile. And yes i have no problem with profiling. Never have and never will. Everyone does it everyday without even realizing it. Luckily for people profiles can be changed and are adaptable.

 

[Fern]

The Westboro Baptist Church's preaches that IEDs killing US soldiers are being sent from God because God hates fags. Any construction on Christian churches near military bases needs to be stopped immediately. So what has the Christian community in general done to rid itself of the radicals in the WBC? From the sideline it appears not much as those radicals are feared. IF there was real effort of the Christian community to police itself, there would not be much issue.

-snip-

WBC has already been taken to court etc. No one can do much about it (the biker group is an exception) because the courts have ruled what they are doing is legal, it is their right to protest as they see fit etc.

BTW: Horrible analogy, WBC hasn't killed anybody, they just yell insults etc.

Fern

 

[IGBT]

jesus died to start Christianity. Mohammad killed to start islam.

 

[Cerb]

Imam calls for moderates to join together, fight extremism

Bad Moonbeam! You're letting intelligent moderates hijack this discourse.

On a more serious note :thumbsup: for Imam Rauf.

 

[Fern]

If I'm not mistaken, both the Oklahoma City Bombing and Centennial Olympic Park bombing was committed by white male Christians, aged 25-40. You could even argue that the Irish Catholic upbringing proves that all those people are a violent bunch, with the numerous IRA bombings and all. Do you associate all Christians with an act of terrorism on US soil that caused 800+ casualties?
-snip-

Nope.

(Ok City bombing) McVeigh was an anti-gov nut as kylebisme's link demonstrate (what's with quoting some blog-like thingy with some guy's opinion?). McVeigh did not belong to any faith, did not claim any connection to any religion etc. Was not looking for some other religioun's equivilent of '40 virgins' etc.

(Centenial park bombing) This was Eric Rudolph, he was a survivalist from the mountains of Western NC (quite near me).

he has denied that his crimes were religiously or racially motivated..

Rudolph himself has written "Many good people continue to send me money and books. Most of them have, of course, an agenda; mostly born-again Christians looking to save my soul. I suppose the assumption is made that because I'm in here I must be a 'sinner' in need of salvation, and they would be glad to sell me a ticket to heaven, hawking this salvation like peanuts at a ballgame. I do appreciate their charity, but I could really do without the condescension. They have been so nice I would hate to break it to them that I really prefer Nietzsche to the Bible

Anti-crime activist and TV host, John Walsh stated that he believed Rudolph to be a "psychopath" whilst his former sister in law, Debra Rudolph asserted that his motivation was based on white supremacist and anti-abortion beliefs

Rudolph, while a weird extremist (a mix of racist and anti-abortion extremism), does not claim any religious connections etc either.

But you know what? We hunted them down; one's dead and the other is serving 5 life sentences and will die in jail.

Edit: Forgot to mention the Northern Ireland issue is one of ethnicity etc. Long ago the English crown removed the Irish from NI and moved the Scottish ('Ulster Scots') in to take over that area for the crown. Basically an invasion/displacement that's still being fought today.

Fern

 

[bfdd]

And Fern, that's the difference between us and them(no I don't mean Muslims in general).

 

[Fern]

Originally Posted by Doc Savage Fan
Meanwhile in Indonesia....

Meanwhile in America

Ahmed Sharif, Muslim Cab Driver Stabbed Because Of His Religion

We could do this all day, couldn't we..

No, you couldn't. You'd run out 'ammo' pretty damn fast while the other side wouldn't.

It's just not credible to deny that there is a strain of Islam that is very violent, organized, coordinated, funded and stretches far outside of the Arab world. There are known Mosque's that are used to inculcate this violent strain and recruit for terrorism etc. There are Imams who been imprisoned and/or deported etc. The terrorists MAKE the claim it's connected to Islam.

Then to compare that to some drugged/drunk person with mental problems who, acting alone with no ties to anybody/anything, making no claims etc, then commits a crime is absurd.

Fern

 

[Jaskalas]

Perhaps it would be best if you get very specific on exactly how I painted the OP with the image of radical Islam. I'm flabbergasted as to how a rational human being could possibly come to this conclusion...especially in light of me clearly saying otherwise.

Your links and references point to a foreign and violent Islam in the midst of a conversation that is geared towards American Muslims. Why else do you keep using those references?

You apparently want to make a curious distinction between radical Islam in America as opposed to the rest of the world.

The distinction I wish to make is between America and the rest of the world. That Muslims here are not Muslims over there. That so long as the public image of Islam is that of the rest of the world then it will be draped in violence and anti Americanism and be seen as a direct threat.

That so long as people see it is a threat they will never trust American Muslims. If we do not reach out to them then we will alienate them. If we do that then there is no stopping violence from spreading. Instead of finding an American identity with a peaceful coexistent they will find that foreign identity you keep plastering all over the place.

I feel my distinction is needed to stop digging at the wound of September 11th. An attempt to stop making matters worse. If there is no distinction then the snowball that began rolling down hill nine years ago will turn into an avalanche and we will have a blood bath on our hands.

Perhaps you can also answer my previous question: Tell me specifically...just how does one go about helping them "rise as a peaceful people"?

We remove the public image of a foreign and violent Islam. We reach out, find the moderates here on our soil and give them the power they need to draw in the rest of their people. We make them prosperous and inspirational. We give them media attention and make them the face of their own religion.

They become the center of gravity, the pillars of their own faith. They usurp and replace extremists. The public image of Islam becomes the front line in the war against terror instead of the fuel that keeps it going. In short: it's regime change.

 

[Taejin]

I'm actually all for the burning of the Qu'ran. Preferably all of its other brother books too. Of course I don't actually advocate persecution of religion but if we could all evolve a little bit and dispense of religion quietly it would be pretty wonderful.

This is America. People have freedoms and will do what they like within legal bounds. Not everyone shares your sense of propriety. I support the burning Qu'rans, I support the building of the mosque right next to Ground Zero. Your religion is nothing special in view of our secularity, and therefore I think there should be no special treatment in favor of or against Islam.

Burn them books.

Build that mosque.

Mind your own god damn business and stop telling us what is 'right' when its a matter of opinion.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Good to see we still have plenty of ignorant bigots here in AT.

 

[Freshgeardude]

I just wanted to point out that it is Hamas' stated, open goal to completely destroy the state of Israel, it is their charter. Whether they are representative of Islam as a whole, I don't know. But there is no debate on the matter that Hamas IS a terrorist organization, and that you wishing their success only reinforce the American viewpoint that there is no such thing as a "moderate muslim". Merely those whom actively participate in terrorist activities, and those whom passively support such goals.

+1 good post

 

[Infohawk]

The fiery hell stuff Qur'an doesn't support any connection to terrorism any more the that in the Gospels does to any form of violence.


Both are arguably misleading according to many Muslim scholars, and used as and excuse for domestic abuse by others, but it's far from an endorsement of terrorism regardless.

You're in complete denial. The words speak for themselves. Terrorism wasn't a word at the time the Quran was written. The religion is barbaric and primitive and Eagle's quotes were hardly different than your cherry-picked version. But keep believing that the Quran doesn't mean what its words say it means.

 

[kylebisme]

You are deluding yourself. What you quoted doesn't even arguably imply any justification for any sort of violence against anyone but wives, and many Islamic scholars contend it doesn't even justify that. As for cherry-picking, Eagle's "quotes" weren't even full verses in some cases, and were odd translations not comparable to anything Google would turn up for me. On the other hand, I'm happy to look at any commonly accepted translation, as I've no interest in cherry-picking at all.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Then to compare that to some drugged/drunk person with mental problems who, acting alone with no ties to anybody/anything, making no claims etc, then commits a crime is absurd.

Fern

The guy asked the cab driver * Are you Muslim? *
When the cabbie answered yes, the guy attempted to cut his throat.

I'm not going to deny if you compare American incidents to the rest of the world, the rest of the world is going to be on top.
But if you were to just look at America alone, there is hundreds of Christian churches teaching hate against Islam.
Islamophobia is alive and thriving in America, you don't even have to look outside of this forum to see that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Your links and references point to a foreign and violent Islam in the midst of a conversation that is geared towards American Muslims. Why else do you keep using those references?

Helloooo...I also brought up 911, Ft. Hood and those instances where the terrorist attacks were unsuccessful. I forgot to mention the shoe bomber and the Christmas Day bomber and probably a few more. Today in the news..."The Obama administration is considering filing the first criminal charges against radical cleric Anwar al-Awlaki in case the CIA fails to kill him and he is captured alive in Yemen. The decision continues the White House's strategy of fighting terrorism both in courthouses and on battlefields.

Al-Awlaki, a U.S. and Yemeni citizen born in New Mexico, has inspired a wave of attempted attacks against the United States and has become Al Qaeda's leading English-speaking voice for recruiting and motivating terrorists. Counterterror officials said al-Awlaki, since mid-2009, has become a major operational figure who selects targets and gives orders."

For the life of me I can't understand how you can rationalize a fundamental difference between foreign Islamic terrorists and those within our country. BTW...you totally failed at justifying your accusation that I somehow painted the OP with the image of radical Islam. You sir are a liar as I did no such thing.

The distinction I wish to make is between America and the rest of the world. That Muslims here are not Muslims over there. That so long as the public image of Islam is that of the rest of the world then it will be draped in violence and anti Americanism and be seen as a direct threat.
That so long as people see it is a threat they will never trust American Muslims. If we do not reach out to them then we will alienate them. If we do that then there is no stopping violence from spreading. Instead of finding an American identity with a peaceful coexistent they will find that foreign identity you keep plastering all over the place.

FYI...that "foreign identity" I keep plastering all over the place is REALITY. This "foreign identity" concept appears to be another lie you tell yourself...apparently to rationalize a false dichotomy between American Islamic terrorists and non-American Islamic terrorists. Let me clue you in here...Islamic terrorism it is here in this country as well as everywhere in the world...it's in the news every day. You do watch the news don't you?

I feel my distinction is needed to stop digging at the wound of September 11th. An attempt to stop making matters worse. If there is no distinction then the snowball that began rolling down hill nine years ago will turn into an avalanche and we will have a blood bath on our hands.

FYI...that snowball started well before 911. There's already been bloodbaths and there will be more despite your 'feel good' rhetoric that offers nothing substantive to solve any problem...real or imagined by you. In your way of thinking, is merely remembering 911 "digging at the wound"?

We remove the public image of a foreign and violent Islam. We reach out, find the moderates here on our soil and give them the power they need to draw in the rest of their people. We make them prosperous and inspirational. We give them media attention and make them the face of their own religion.

So this is your solution...wow. I asked you previously for specifics but all I get is this kind of worthless rhetoric. If this issue is so important to you...the least you can do is to offer real world solutions instead of pathetic empty words...as if we can somehow control of how people perceive Islamic terrorism.

They become the center of gravity, the pillars of their own faith. They usurp and replace extremists. The public image of Islam becomes the front line in the war against terror instead of the fuel that keeps it going. In short: it's regime change.

You paint a rosy picture...but when it comes down to what actually needs to be done to achieve this...you come up empty. IMO...Islam itself needs to take a highly visible and active role in solving their problems with violent extremeists...but I'm not seeing it and it's their fault that their image suffers for it.

 

[Orignal Earl]

.Islam itself needs to take a highly visible and active role in solving their problems with violent extremeists...but I'm not seeing it and it's their fault that their image suffers for it.

You must have some kind of blinders on then. There are hundreds of Islamic orgs denouncing terrorism and the extremeists.
Links and quotes have been posted in this thread and the threads about the NY Mosque.

What steps should the US gov take to help with the Islamophobia in America?
Oh wait... the righties complain about that too.

 

[routan]

Without perpetuating this discussion, if I may point out, to figure out the mindset of radicals/extremists, one can potentially visit this thread to see how bigots and Islamophobes think, obtain their "facts" and form their opinions.

The same way retarded mullahs stand on their pulpit and call America evil, which leads their uneducated congregation to believe the same, some members here listen to people like Billy Graham or Fox News and paint Islam as evil.

The reverse happens in under-developed nations, where lack of law and order allows a-holes to carry out their evil acts. Should America not be as awesome as it is, I would imagine loonies in this thread going Rambo style in places close to home like Dearborn, Michigan, like that guy who was arrested in Afghanistan/Pakistan.

Quite a sad state of affairs.

 

[routan]

I just wanted to point out that it is Hamas' stated, open goal to completely destroy the state of Israel, it is their charter. Whether they are representative of Islam as a whole, I don't know. But there is no debate on the matter that Hamas IS a terrorist organization, and that you wishing their success only reinforce the American viewpoint that there is no such thing as a "moderate muslim". Merely those whom actively participate in terrorist activities, and those whom passively support such goals.

QuantumPion, you are a very good example of the uneducated people I mention. I am not sure whether you purposefully choose to spin my post, and show bad intent, or whether you lack basic comprehension skils.

In either case, to address your post would be lowering myself.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You must have some kind of blinders on then. There are hundreds of Islamic orgs denouncing terrorism and the extremeists.
Links and quotes have been posted in this thread and the threads about the NY Mosque.

What steps should the US gov take to help with the Islamophobia in America?
Oh wait... the righties complain about that too.

I don't recall much, if any, news where radical imams were kicked out of their mosques...or where radical mosques were closed down. Words without action are meaningless. Meanwhile extremist Islam continues to grow...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-480470/Radical-Islamic-sect-half-Britains-mosques-grip.html
"A hardline Islamic movement, whose leading UK imam preaches anti-Semitism and calls on Muslims to "shed blood for Allah", is controlling almost half of Britain's mosques, a police report has found.

The influence of the ultra-conservative Deobandi sect, which is characterised by its total rejection of western values, has grown to such an extent that police now believe it runs more than 600 of Britain's 1,350 mosques."