I felt like commenting on this because it isn't talked about a whole lot. It isn't America that has a history of bad behavior towards specific groups, it is Everyone. Or more specifically, almost every group has an issue with some other group(s). You make this sound like America is the only country that has it out for some other group, and that isn't the case. We are as imperfect as the rest of the world, and the rest of the world is as imperfect as us.
Yeah, but it seems to me that (some) Islamic immigrants are different.
Chinese, Japanese etc do not bring with them a religion which thinks it should rule the government. For that matter neither do all Arabs etc, some are Coptics etc.
However, for a great many Muslims their beliefs mandate that the government be ruled by Islam - beliefs and Mullahs/Imams. This is unique, I believe, in that no other group of immigrants have held such a belief. And this belief is in fundamental conflict with migrating to a non-Muslim country. How to reconcile that belief with the principle of seperation of church and state, for example.
(IIRC, Al Sistani does teach seperation of church and state, so there are exceptions)
Fern
What they do want are laws that are not in contradiction/are in conformity with the teachings of the Quran.
I can accept that this "IDEA" is not agreeable to non-Muslims. But the irony is that American legal framework is more in conformity than that of Muslim nations.
lol. There are so many failings in this post.
American history may not be strength, but did not a denomination of Christians come to this country to escape/distinguish themselves from another denomination?
Many Muslims do NOT want leadership to be ruled by Mullahs. What they do want are laws that are not in contradiction/are in conformity with the teachings of the Quran.
I can accept that this "IDEA" is not agreeable to non-Muslims. But the irony is that American legal framework is more in conformity than that of Muslim nations. Additionally, the legal framework allows for opinion of all religions/races to be considered. Which is EXACTLY why Muslims migrate to the US, and are successful Americans.
no you moron they came to be able to practice their religion without persecution. the law here, while may have things in common with religion(s), is supposed to be independent of it. I sure as hell would not want to live in a world conforming to the Qu'ran.
It seems to be the view of many Americans that although the supporters of the ground zero mosque have every right to build in the disputed location,but, to do so is disrespecting the memory of the 3000+ who died there at the hands of terrorists who claimed their acts where in the name of Allah.
I would like to hear from the OP why he believes it is important to build the mosque at this location, and what significance this location would mean for the people who would pray there as opposed to another location which would be less contraversial?
I have actually read this entire post after spending the weekend away with the wife for her birthday.
I want to first thank the OP for coming in here for some perspective. I agree with many points the OP made and disagreed with many others. The facts stand that we live in a very polarizing world. The vilification of dissenting views has become the norm and not the exception.
First I would like to address the oft repeated fallacy of equating islamic extremism to nazi germany. Once again people throw that out without understanding history. If Ismlam was a central country-government and radical islam was their state sponsored military solution to foreign policy then your false analogy would be correct. Otherwise its just drivel.... While some states like Iran do sponsor some terrorist organizations those instances are the exception.
Again the insensitivity argument is valid only if you agree to the fallacy that islam = extremism.. again an intellectual fallacy...
I will be the first in line to decry the norm in most Muslim countries that keeps women as second class citizens. I abhor the violence used to suppress other religions in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran. I will also be the first inline to throw stones at ourselves for our systematic destruction of the Indigenous populations here in North America and the history of hate in our struggles with Civil rights.
If we look at Morocco and Iran to a large extent then we are seeing many countries and people at a crossroads. In Morocco sex outside of marriage is becoming commonplace. Cost of living has gone up to the extent that women are entering the workplace and have an equal say in the direction of their families. As the Muslim world progresses towards these things the more religious extremists will cling to terrorism. In some ways Islamic terrorism as we know it today is a byproduct of the maturity of the islamic religion and its diminishing role as authoritarian guide and to the transition of spiritual guide in modern times.
I hope the OP stays in AT and contributes to our melting pot. While I disagree with many here I have come to enjoy our coffee shop conversations and the challenging nature of the discourse. As long as you have thick skin and can take the occasional abuse we can agree to disagree..
If the OP does stay I would like his opinion of the evolving state of the role of the woman in mainstream muslim society?
To OP, I like to re-frame the ground-zero Mosque situation using an analogy. Say there's a guy who murdered your sister in a robbery (just an example, don't take it personally, try to put yourself in this hypothetical situation). Then just by chance, your next door neighbor who recently moved in looks very very like that guy who killed your sister. Now, this neighbor of yours is obviously not a murderer, BUT, would you feel comfortable having him be your neighbor?
But let's continue the story, as time goes on, several situations arises and you actually got to see who your neighbor really are. And you start to see him as been different from the Murderer who killed your sister. By watching his actual actions cutting through the surface resemblances between him and the murderer. And let's say you became good friends after a while and you no longer hate him because you made an distinction between him vs. the murderer.
well, routan, I believe Muslim who has nothing to do with 9/11 is caught in precisely this scenario. Just like in the story, for people to make this distinction between peaceful Muslims vs. Radical elements, will probably have to take some time.
What they do want are laws that are not in contradiction/are in conformity with the teachings of the Quran.
Glad to see you posted again Routan. I had hoped you could comment on a few of the things I posted earlier in the thread that got buried. The evolving role of the woman and the interesting things going on in Morocco and Iran..
Thanks for the prompt answer. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems from your answer that the proximity to ground zero doesn't have a special significance, that the location was selected solely based on the availability of suficient usable space in the lower manhatten area?
Excuse my lack of knowledge but I really haven't been keeping up with this ongoing contraversy, but have any alternate locations been discussed or negotiated? I heard something about Trump making an offer to buy out the current location? Or is it a case that the supporters of the current plan don't think the oppents would accept anything short of completely leaving the area?
You are in the wrong country if that is what you Muslims want. No offense.
What is the possibility Routan is just a parody poster?
Parody of what?
Nice non confrontational avatar you got thar
GuitarDaddy, to my knowledge, the original intent was to secure a location for Muslims working in the Financial District. AFTER this location was found and obtained, the proximity to WTC was considered as a positive for inter-faith discussions and presenting a positive image of Islam.
For many months, no issue was raised about the proposed community center. Hence substantial investments were made towards this location, hence consideration of alternate locations were not considered. However, the unexpected outcry under incorrect pretenses came up very recently. To my knowledge, Imam Faisal was recently reported as saying "all options (including relocation) are on the table".
I do not know what Trump's suggestion was. However, the idea that Muslims should not have a mosque suitable to host the Muslims community in Lower Manhattan is quite Islamophobic and very wrong. Keeping that in mind, I highly doubt that anything in Lower Manhattan/Financial District could be sufficiently far away from the shadow of WTC to appease Islamophobes and bigots.
I understand your position and wish you the best. And would only offer the advice of agressively dispelling and disproving the fears of your opponents. The "Islamophobes" worst fear is that you use the center to pay homage to those who attached us on 9/11, and as insane as this thought must seem to you it's a real fear of those who don't understand and needs to be addressed and dispelled. And any symbolic showing of reverence for the 3000+ multicultural humans that died needlessly that day would also go a long way in smoothing over any opposition
manimal, my apologies for not addressing your post and questions. I do enjoy a civil discussion and exchange of ideas, which will both serve to expand my intellect as well as (hopefully) influence mindsets of others.
to your post, I am in full support of the involvement of the opposite gender in everyday life. From the perspective of religion, there is sound precedence of Muslim women actively contributing throughout history. In this regards, I do not believe Muslims are at "cross-roads". Rather I would think there is re-emergence of the vital contributions womenfolk can make in the society.
As for pre-marital sex, I am not a proponent. The reason should be fairly obvious - I am a conformist Muslim and that act is against Islamic tenets. Even outside the scope of religion, I do not believe being sexually active is a symbol of advancement/progress, either for males, or for females.
I do very strongly hope that Muslim women AND Muslim men re-emerge from their backwardness and make excellent strides in contributing towards mankind's progress in sciences, education and industry, as they have in the past.
Absolutely. The masses of US folk are unrealistically fearing for their lives and safety. From what I can see, Europeans are fearing that their ages-old culture will be diluted, and made impotent, as the poor immigrants are multiplying like rabbits, and almost all of them are of Arab Muslim backgrounds.Are they banning burquas because they are afraid of them? Or could there be another reason?
Are they banning minarets in the skyline because they are afraid of them? Or could there be another reason?
Many Muslims do NOT want leadership to be ruled by Mullahs. What they do want are laws that are not in contradiction/are in conformity with the teachings of the Quran.
I pointed you to where your question had been answered before you asked it.