A Muslim's perspective

[Infohawk]

I dont think "terrorists" belong to any religion. I dont think "terrorists" belong to humankind at all.

That's an awfully convenient and illogical belief. The more reasonable explanation is that terrorists are humans and the products of their environment, which most of the time includes a heavy dose of Islam. That'll be my last response since you're superstitious and can't be expected to be reasonable about anything.

 

[tinker2141]

Nice sock puppet talk. Come out into the light...

Who you calling a sock puppet? I am just new here

 

[routan]

It absolutely is an issue of freedom of expression, and our court system would disagree with you.

And? If an American Islamic group came out tomorrow and burned Bibles, I'd say the same thing -- it is in bad taste, but they have the right. I wouldn't be threatening violence.

We DO see hate speech from Muslims in other nations directed toward the United States ALL THE TIME. Burning the American flag, the Bible burning/church desecration in Pakistan, etc -- did you hear Christians from the US or abroad threatening violent retaliation? No.

That is incorrect. Most here are highly educated and while we find the Quran burning in bad tastes, we're smart enough to know we have freedom of expression in this country and tens of millions of our friends, relatives, and ancestors fought and some died to give these rights to us.

I am not posting challenging the legal framework of America. If you actually read my original post, I was requesting reasonable mindset instead of promoting differences and hate-based acts.

Also, if you read my original post, I also stated that this country is different from those in the eastern side of the world.

I would hope that you are part of the "highly educated" crowd and read my thoughts and words in their entirety.

 

[Infohawk]

Who you calling a sock puppet? I am just new here

You should have joined as a misunderstood and victimized Muslim. Then you would have brave left-wing posters defending your honor.

 

[routan]

That's an awfully convenient and illogical belief. The more reasonable explanation is that terrorists are humans and the products of their environment, which most of the time includes a heavy dose of Islam. That'll be my last response since you're superstitious and can't be expected to be reasonable about anything.

Fair enough if you hold that opinion. Just proves my point. The United States has provided more support/knowledge to OBL than Islam. I consider myself fairly knowledgable about Islam. I have never read anything closely resembling anything of how to construct a suicide vest

 

[routan]

I have a problem with that comment because that is being presumptuous with a touch of being "dismissive" towards others feelings

why do you presume to know that your suffering is more than the next person when it comes to these things?

my apologies. My intent was not to show who is suffering more. I was only trying to show the point that buring of the Quran makes Muslims VERY upset. I didnt mean to make it a who-suffers-more contest

 

[Eagle1969]

Tell me, your pastor, who declared that he will burn the Koran and who called Obama and other politicians, he did it? Is there a video?

 

[tinker2141]

You should have joined as a misunderstood and victimized Muslim. Then you would have brave left-wing posters defending your honor.

ROFL. No kidding.

 

[Infohawk]

Tell me, your pastor, who declared that he will burn the Koran and who called Obama and other politicians, he did it? Is there a video?

He didn't do anything. But Muslims around the world freaked out anyway.

 

[routan]

You may not be responsible for them but your religious leaders are. Just like the Pope is the one holding the bag on the child rape issues in the Catholic church or the Neo-Evangelical parish leaders whose flock decides to bomb abortion clinics is de facto responsible for his congregation actions. Want respect start having those who are preaching radicalism ousted.

Muslims do not have a centralized hierchial religious structure. If there was, I would agree with you, as then entire teachings would be held accountable to a central authority.

I would whole-heartedly support a monitoring/policing of the educational material or qualifications of religious leaders. Sadly that is not the case.

However, with respect to America, it is more often the case that religious leaders ARE educated, with proper theological degrees from esteemed education.

In any case, it is still incorrect to blame Islam, or Muslims for what happened. I refuse responsibility. And while I cant fault you to hold your bias against Muslims, it would be civil of you not to support hate-filled acts, be it from Muslims or non-Muslims.

 

[Craig234]

Routan, welcome.

I've made the point occassionaly, that I tend to discuss 'one side' of issues more because I'm tending to respond to people who are wrong from one side.

I'm going to take advantage of your post for arguing the 'other side' from the side I've usually been arguing, that agrees with the points you've made.

This isn't inconsistent - it's issues that haven't come up as much.

While we agree on what you did post, I'd like to comment on a few things you haven't.

These are 'things common in Islamic society'; of course not all Muslims fit them, and they're not the usual examples of extremist behavior most Muslims oppose.

First, let's talk about gays. We have bigots in the Democratic party. We have a lot more bigots in the Republican party. We have high rates of bigotry among religious people - the Catholics and Mormons were big donors for discrimination here in California last election - and religious blacks seem to have even more bigots. But my impression - not carefully confirmed - is that anti-gay views may be higher than any of these groups among Muslims.

Certainly, we have issues with gay inequality in multiple Muslim nations - exceeding the sort of inequality of 'no gay marriage' up to even lashings and reportedly execution.

Now, we in the US are hardly perfect - it was only in 2003 laws ended allowing imprisonment for gay sex, and it wasn't by vote, but by the court.

But this seems to be a real and signifigant problem in the Islamic world IMO.

I wouldn't be surprised if you oppose the discrimination, but I think it needs mention in a discussion of 'Muslim issues'.

Second, the Islamic world has a lot of countries where the law and culture seems pretty tolerant of a 'religious nation', where the merging of the religious and the law and state aren't seen as dangerous but as good, where preferential treatment for Islam seems to be well accepted and preferred.

Why is it that there isn't wider support for secular government allowing the free practice of Islam and other religions equally, over the state support for Islam?

That, too, seems to be an issue with Islam.

And again, we in the US have a substantial minority with a similar problem, who would prefer a 'religious state' here, but we're not close to their getting their way.

We may have an unofficial taboo on a Muslim becoming president - despite it being legal and possible in theory - but we still have a generally secular system.

Take Afghanistan, and let me say up front I'm ignorant about what I'm about to ask. The Taliban there have reportedly never had more than single digit support among the population - and yet they seem to get power all too readily. I wonder if this doesn't imply some level of tolerance for their extremist fundamentalist views, even if not shared, as part of why they're able to get power? In the US, our 5% support groups are nowhere near able to get control of the country for a radical agenda.

(Our 25% radical groups, ya. 5 of our supreme court justices are pretty radical, and the W and Reagan administrations did some radical things, for example. But it's far from something like the Taliban gaining power. Perhaps our biggest minority group gaining power are 'the rich', and our nation is suffering a lot from their doing so, and we seem powerless to use our votes to reign them in, but it's not a pervasive cultural repression like the Taliban).

Why is a country like Afghanistan seemingly so unable to have its majority keep power over the Taliban? I understand the Taliban are more brutal and organized - but it that it?

Next, a question - Muslims tend to more observant of behavioral rules in their religion than the west, IMO. Sexual, substance use, and a variety of other areas, Muslims seem to 'practice what they preach' more than the large majority in the west - and I hear them decry the western practices of substance abuse, pornography, and other things.

In ways, this behavioral difference is admirable - and in others, a bit scary.

I'll admit the logical problem common in the west where 'it's their choice' is inadequate to try to address many problems - but we are wary of authoritarian measures to limit people's choices, especially from religion. My question is, would Muslim majorities be prone to use the law to enforce their religious-based views on society, even if 'for a good cause' like reducing smoking? We do that to a mild extent - advertising that reduces smoking, high taxes - but still have a big problem.

I think the idea they would rubs a lot of people the wrong way. The repeal of prohibition here is pretty popular - even while tens of thousand a year are killed by drunk drivers.

There are other issues to discuss, but I think these are some that should be added to a discussion of 'Islam issues for the US'.

Your opening post did sound a bit defensive; I won't defend some of the terrible people here, but predicting you will get banned and such I think is way too much.

One final thing - Abismal, snicker. Teasing you, Hyabusa.

 

[Moonbeam]

my apologies. My intent was not to show who is suffering more. I was only trying to show the point that buring of the Quran makes Muslims VERY upset. I didnt mean to make it a who-suffers-more contest

The issue, it seems to me, is this:

How are we going to protect your right to practice Islam in a country full of bigots who want to destroy your religion, and not protect their right to burn the Quran? Everybody wants to use the law to stop others from offending them. Everybody has their sacred cows. We either have to have freedom of religion and speech or we will have neither. You either have to face the possibility you will be offended or live in a totalitarian state?

 

[routan]

Many people view the mosque by the twins towers in the same context You can do it, but it not the right thing to do because it is not a decent thing to do. Poll after poll show people believe they have right to build the mosque, but that it is not the right thing to do.

charrison, I addressed the "sensitivity" talking point in my first post

 

[Craig234]

You should have joined as a misunderstood and victimized Muslim. Then you would have brave left-wing posters defending your honor.

An idiot, the advocate for misunderstanding and oppression.

 

[Eagle1969]

He didn't do anything. But Muslims around the world freaked out anyway.

Pity. He filed a great hope. Cool man.
But it is not surprising, since he was threatened by all Muslims, such as Obama and Steve Jobs.

 

[routan]

The issue, it seems to me, is this:

How are we going to protect your right to practice Islam in a country full of bigots who want to destroy your religion, and not protect their right to burn the Quran? Everybody wants to use the law to stop others from offending them. Everybody has their sacred cows. We either have to have freedom of religion and speech or we will have neither. You either have to face the possibility you will be offended or live in a totalitarian state?

Moonbeam, I already addressed this point. You have every right to do so. But by doing so, you are committing a hate-filled act.

You can make the same argument for anti-semitic speech. Nonetheless, sensible people do not indulge in anti-semitic speech.

I also mentioned the Taliban destroying the Buddha Statues. They had EVERY right to do so in their country. That does NOT make it right.

Burning the Quran, and supporting that act puts you on the same level as the Taliban. That is quite shameful.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I am not posting challenging the legal framework of America. If you actually read my original post, I was requesting reasonable mindset instead of promoting differences and hate-based acts.

First of all, you're not going to gain points here with trying to categorize people as "highly educated" or not. You need to come down from your ivory tower if you expect any sympathy from this crowd.

Second of all, when you have a group of people threatening Americans because they might exercise their freedom of speech, it will encourage and embolden more Americans to do the same thing. THAT is what is probably pissing most people off -- you have these radical elements threatening "death to America!" etc. if a Quran is burned. Who the hell are they do tell us what to do in our own country? How DARE they?!

Furthermore, do you question the mindset of radical islamicists who commit these heinous acts other than saying "Oh well, they're not representing Islam." That's the disconnect many of you guys have. The (very) few of you who DO speak out against the unspeakable acts committed by these people simply dismiss them as not being "true Muslims" rather than figuring out the root causes. Why don't Islamic nations encourage freedom of speech, religion, etc? What is it about predominantly Islamic nations in the Middle East that foments such rage? Maybe instead of trying to act in the role of innocent victims who are being targeted, you should look into these questions more.

I'll sum it up the way I ended another post -- sorry if people of the Islamic faith don't like it, but they're just going to have to get over it. I certainly don't like seeing my flag burned in the streets of London or Tehran, but you know what? Yes, I got over it without threats or violence.

You may have addressed these points already, but I have not had time to read all of the posts in this thread. So if you have, just ignore my post.

P.S. Not to be a grammar nazi, but the proper spelling of the word "targetted" (sic) in your OP is "targeted."

 

[Infohawk]

Pity. He filed a great hope. Cool man.
But it is not surprising, since he was threatened by all Muslims, such as Obama and Steve Jobs.

OK Steve Jobs comment confirms its a parody poster. I'll give him an 8/10.

 

[Infohawk]

I also mentioned the Taliban destroying the Buddha Statues. They had EVERY right to do so in their country. That does NOT make it right.

LOOOL. Just like Muslims have a right to stone women in their own country? Sorry I wasn't supposed to respond again that was just too ridiculous.

The destruction of the Buddhist statutes was a crime against humanity.

 

[MJinZ]

If I as an American have the right to religious freedom, whats wrong with this mosque/community center?

It's distasteful.

The building of the mosque so close to the Twin Towers is insensitive to the deaths of fellow Americans. How so? I am as much responsible as you are. America failed to prevent the terrorists from learning how to fly, passing through the security checks, boarding the plane and stopping the planes once it was learnt they were hijacked.

If your reasonings are that just because of my faith, I am somewhat responsible, that is not even sound reasoning.

It's because your faith sucks ass.

Similarly, if you are a KKK member, it's also because your "faith" sucks ass in any Black Slavery monument.

To be sensitive to the general American perception is taking responsibility of the tragedy. I am NOT responsible, and no one should shove that responsibility on me.

I don't pretend to know all of the details of your religion, but if all the denigrating bullshit is true, then you are just as responsible for crimes against women, equal rights, etc etc etc.

The criticisms have also warped into the finances of the construction of the mosque. The congregation of the mosque donates siginificantly towards the construction. Additionally, a large amount of financing will come through allied commercial endeavors. Yes, non-US related funding may also be a part, but so what? Our entire country in large parts is funded by China; communist China, once a hated ideology in American mindset. Until there is evidence of bad people funding the mosque, this is a moot point.

Yes well, once China stops giving money to America and starts bombing America, we can approach this topic again. Wait, what do Muslim Countries do?

Another criticism has been towards Imam Faisal. One can debate on and off about his past comments. There is no point in speaking to his defense. He is an American who has been soundly recognized and commended by the elected government of my country, this country.

A vast majority of you sit and comment on the forums after reading biased news outlets, while the ground perspectives of those who actually visit the mosque is never highlighted.

As a Muslim, I am saddened by the support of burning of the Quran. Why would you support that? I hold immense respect for the Holy Book. Reasonable people were against the burning of crosses by the KKK, were you not? Of course you have the freedom to do so, there is no doubt. But does that freedom grant you to inflame another community that is as American as you are?

I don't support it. Because it is, as a country, an ill-advised motion that would also endanger the political sense of liberalism America has.

Claiming you are as "American" as the rest is ridiculous. Your religion is fucked up. More fucked up than the Christians. And they are preeeeetty fucked up. And the Christians actually came and raped Natives in order to "create" America, in which case they are somewhat related to America. You and your religion has nothing to do with America.

In essence, you are purposefully supporting the targetting of the Muslim community, putting us in conflict with you, forcing a distinction between Americans and Muslims. There is no difference. I came to America to enjoy the freedoms this country provides, which are absent in the eastern half of the world. I didnt come here to be a target of your hate. I could face that in my home country. There are other Muslims, born and raised here, went to school and universities with fellow Americans. Are we that different that you choose to support this directed targetting?

You'll be different enough until your religion becomes watered down to sensible levels.

Do people honestly expect to be "the same" when they clearly ARE different?
It's like I expect to be treated exactly the same as a White person even though I am Asian. Or a Black person.

If a country of differences is not to your liking, perhaps it's best to live in a country where everyone is the same and then mold it to become like America. But you'd probably have to kill all the dissenters first. Very annoying hurdles to get through I know.

America has had history of bad behavior towards a group of people, be it African Americans, Orientals (during WW2), perceived Communists and so on. I urge every one here to not let history repeat itself.

It's a nice thought but when your native countries are at war with us, there will be tensions. Just like Civil Wars. World War 2. Etc.

 

[routan]

LOOOL. Just like Muslims have a right to stone women in their own country? Sorry I wasn't supposed to respond again that was just too ridiculous.

The destruction of the Buddhist statutes was a crime against humanity.

I believe "crime against humanity" means crimes committed against humans, not statues.

 

[routan]

blah blah.

I refuse to address stupidity.

 

[routan]

First of all, you're not going to gain points here with trying to categorize people as "highly educated" or not. You need to come down from your ivory tower if you expect any sympathy from this crowd.

Second of all, when you have a group of people threatening Americans because they might exercise their freedom of speech, it will encourage and embolden more Americans to do the same thing. THAT is what is probably pissing most people off -- you have these radical elements threatening "death to America!" etc. if a Quran is burned. Who the hell are they do tell us what to do in our own country? How DARE they?!

Furthermore, do you question the mindset of radical islamicists who commit these heinous acts other than saying "Oh well, they're not representing Islam." That's the disconnect many of you guys have. The (very) few of you who DO speak out against the unspeakable acts committed by these people simply dismiss them as not being "true Muslims" rather than figuring out the root causes. Why don't Islamic nations encourage freedom of speech, religion, etc? What is it about predominantly Islamic nations in the Middle East that foments such rage? Maybe instead of trying to act in the role of innocent victims who are being targeted, you should look into these questions more.

I'll sum it up the way I ended another post -- sorry if people of the Islamic faith don't like it, but they're just going to have to get over it. I certainly don't like seeing my flag burned in the streets of London or Tehran, but you know what? Yes, I got over it without threats or violence.

You may have addressed these points already, but I have not had time to read all of the posts in this thread. So if you have, just ignore my post.

P.S. Not to be a grammar nazi, but the proper spelling of the word "targetted" (sic) in your OP is "targeted."

I am not here to ask for your "sympathy". Nor am I here to win "points" from people on a website. I mean seriously, is that why you post here?

Rest of your post I have already addressed.

 

[Craig234]

I dont think "terrorists" belong to any religion.

I agree. It's like saying violence is linked to one religion.

I dont think "terrorists" belong to humankind at all.

And I very much disagree with this.

I won't get into a large controversial discussion of it here, but this is just the sort of dehumanization that is wrong and increase the problem rather than solves it.

Some terrorist behavior can be 'insane', evil, brutal, and inhumanE, as opposed to inhuman.

But it's definitely human. To say otherwise is to oppose the understanding - a word the right often confuses with 'agreeing' -that is important.

Also, the ability to understand AND IF APPROPRIATE AGREE with grievances is helpful, something else the right often doesn't understand.

Some terrorism has no case - it's hate, ignorance, superstition, cult-like indoctrination that justifies the harming of innocent people, period. But oh wait, the two million Vietnames killed, by bullet, agent orange, napalm, torture and more for our own 'excuses', that's better how again? And have we come to recognize the wrong? Most haven't.

But other terrorism - and you can still attack it much of the time as wrong - has roots in oppression. When a government is terrible to its people - kidnapping, torturing and murder any who oppose the repression and even some who don't just to keep the people scared - people might fight back with terrorism, in an attempt to motivate more of the public to take up the battle, creating instability, making the government look vunerable to encourage opposition to it.

The issue is more complicated - but the basic point here I'm making is that 'inhuman' is a word that has no place discussing human behavior, however bad.

It creates walls against dealing with the problem. "Oh, they aren't human, and that's the end of the story." No, it's not and sometimes, it prevents any justice as well.

Sometimes, violent supression of terrorism is the best choice; other times, violent supression of terrorism is protecting injustice; but it's human behavior.

Even if it's setting off a nuke in a city that killed masses of innocents, even if it's blowing up a school bus of children, even if it's bombing a village from a B-52, it's human.

Al-Qaeda/Osama bin Laden was responsible. If I know my facts correctly, he/thr group was equipped by American funds and know-how than by Islam to plan and implement the dastardly act.

There's something to that, but I don't know most came from the US; I thought I saw they have their backers among the radicals in Saudi Arabia, for example.

I've recommended a book on the US (and English) role in the sponsoring of terrorist groups in the Middle east, to create forces against the nationalists and take power, called 'Devil's Game'. You might benefit from it as well, helping clarify some of the history you may not have seen of how these groups got started. It should be history taught in our schools that Americans learn, but it's far from that, as the false myths we had nothing to do with it are held by most.

 

[MJinZ]

BTW I'm one of the admins. We don't hate you, and it is we who hold the keys. Unfortunately we cannot guarantee the civility of others, but we can hope.

Fuck maaaaang civility ruins all the fun.