A Muslim's perspective

[MJinZ]

I refuse to address stupidity.

Exactly, which is why religions like yours and all the retarded God puppets should be shipped off to a little insane asylum and you'll be free to do God's bidding there, or suicide bomb people, or whatever.

 

[Infohawk]

OP is a frightening example of "you tolerate me and mine but we don't have to tolerate you."

 

[MJinZ]

routan, I am told I go back to 1514 as an American but never mind. My father was better than that. He claimed to be 200% American because he hated everybody. Welcome to America. With the number of idiots, bigots, and uneducated boobs like my good friend tinker, above, to loathe, you also will easily qualify as a genuine American.

And there is nothing in your post that would even get you remotely banned in my opinion.

You were especially right about one thing. Neither you nor Islam was responsible for 9/11. There is nothing you have to defend. We all would like for other people to be objective, fair, and loving, but none of us has that as a personal responsibility or even the capacity, to insure that others will be that way. We can only demonstrate by example what we believe and you are doing well with that in my opinion. Glad you came here, glad you posted, glad you're my fellow American.

The only true Americans are those who hate authority, taxes, and would happily rape and pillage. Oh and me me me me me no communist.

 

[MJinZ]

OP is a frightening example of "you tolerate me and mine but we don't have to tolerate you."

Pretty much, note how I addressed his stupidity yet he refuses to address mine.

My stupidity is much better though. And it smells better too.

 

[MJinZ]

You should have joined as a misunderstood and victimized Muslim. Then you would have brave left-wing posters defending your honor.

I wonder what people consider me, since last I heard most Left Wingers like me are ardent religion bashers.

 

[MJinZ]

I agree. It's like saying violence is linked to one religion.

Violence IS linked to one religion - the religion of Gods. More specifically, all of the abrahamic religions.

Note how all the other religions like Scientology, Buddhism or whatever do not and historically have not promoted violence.

 

[Infohawk]

I wonder what people consider me, since last I heard most Left Wingers like me are ardent religion bashers.

You're an exception. Most left wingers do not tend to like religion. But with Islam there's a double-standard for many. That's why I've been harping on it a lot recently. You'll see most of the posters here scream and rant about conservatives or Christians but crucify others for generalizing about the most barbaric of the religions at the moment.

 

[boomerang]

This circulates in email from time to time. It can also be found on the web.

1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40.

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics , athletes were kidnapped and massacred by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.

4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.

6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.

7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.

8. In 1988 , Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.

9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.

10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.

11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim male extremists between the of 17 and 40.

12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.

13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by-- you guessed it-- Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.

These incidents and far, far more that are not mentioned are why sentiments can be negative towards your religion. Those of us that don't practice the Muslim faith have a difficult time determining who wants us dead and who doesn't. Blunt language, but I think you can handle it.

If you or anyone else would like to counter any of the above talking points, we'll all be willing to hear you out I'm sure.

Personally, I'm not concerned about being murdered by Muslim male extremists, or being blown up by women or juvenile Muslim extremists. I think the chances of that happening are slim to none. It's so far down on my worry list as to be non-existent. I also harbor no ill will against those that practice the faith. Besides being none of my business, I don't care what faith anyone practices. It's a personal thing and if you leave me alone in that regard I'm OK with it.

But there is a pattern that has been evolving over a long time. A correlation between your faith and violence which is often extreme. Surely you are smart enough to understand why many feel the way they do.

Defending your faith is a nice thing to do and all, but your efforts would be better spent on getting the members of your faith to embrace the true tenants of your faith. To get them to renounce the violence and learn to live in peace with those of differing views and opinions. When Muslims are acting out in extreme and violent ways, all the PR in the world is for naught.

Whether right or wrong, if the majority of Americans don't want that mosque in the planned location, don't be surprised at the reaction if it gets built there. No rocket science, just common sense.

 

[routan]

Routan, welcome.

I've made the point occassionaly, that I tend to discuss 'one side' of issues more because I'm tending to respond to people who are wrong from one side.

I'm going to take advantage of your post for arguing the 'other side' from the side I've usually been arguing, that agrees with the points you've made.

This isn't inconsistent - it's issues that haven't come up as much.

While we agree on what you did post, I'd like to comment on a few things you haven't.

These are 'things common in Islamic society'; of course not all Muslims fit them, and they're not the usual examples of extremist behavior most Muslims oppose.

First, let's talk about gays. We have bigots in the Democratic party. We have a lot more bigots in the Republican party. We have high rates of bigotry among religious people - the Catholics and Mormons were big donors for discrimination here in California last election - and religious blacks seem to have even more bigots. But my impression - not carefully confirmed - is that anti-gay views may be higher than any of these groups among Muslims.

Certainly, we have issues with gay inequality in multiple Muslim nations - exceeding the sort of inequality of 'no gay marriage' up to even lashings and reportedly execution.

Now, we in the US are hardly perfect - it was only in 2003 laws ended allowing imprisonment for gay sex, and it wasn't by vote, but by the court.

But this seems to be a real and signifigant problem in the Islamic world IMO.

I wouldn't be surprised if you oppose the discrimination, but I think it needs mention in a discussion of 'Muslim issues'.

Second, the Islamic world has a lot of countries where the law and culture seems pretty tolerant of a 'religious nation', where the merging of the religious and the law and state aren't seen as dangerous but as good, where preferential treatment for Islam seems to be well accepted and preferred.

Why is it that there isn't wider support for secular government allowing the free practice of Islam and other religions equally, over the state support for Islam?

That, too, seems to be an issue with Islam.

And again, we in the US have a substantial minority with a similar problem, who would prefer a 'religious state' here, but we're not close to their getting their way.

We may have an unofficial taboo on a Muslim becoming president - despite it being legal and possible in theory - but we still have a generally secular system.

Take Afghanistan, and let me say up front I'm ignorant about what I'm about to ask. The Taliban there have reportedly never had more than single digit support among the population - and yet they seem to get power all too readily. I wonder if this doesn't imply some level of tolerance for their extremist fundamentalist views, even if not shared, as part of why they're able to get power? In the US, our 5% support groups are nowhere near able to get control of the country for a radical agenda.

(Our 25% radical groups, ya. 5 of our supreme court justices are pretty radical, and the W and Reagan administrations did some radical things, for example. But it's far from something like the Taliban gaining power. Perhaps our biggest minority group gaining power are 'the rich', and our nation is suffering a lot from their doing so, and we seem powerless to use our votes to reign them in, but it's not a pervasive cultural repression like the Taliban).

Why is a country like Afghanistan seemingly so unable to have its majority keep power over the Taliban? I understand the Taliban are more brutal and organized - but it that it?

Next, a question - Muslims tend to more observant of behavioral rules in their religion than the west, IMO. Sexual, substance use, and a variety of other areas, Muslims seem to 'practice what they preach' more than the large majority in the west - and I hear them decry the western practices of substance abuse, pornography, and other things.

In ways, this behavioral difference is admirable - and in others, a bit scary.

I'll admit the logical problem common in the west where 'it's their choice' is inadequate to try to address many problems - but we are wary of authoritarian measures to limit people's choices, especially from religion. My question is, would Muslim majorities be prone to use the law to enforce their religious-based views on society, even if 'for a good cause' like reducing smoking? We do that to a mild extent - advertising that reduces smoking, high taxes - but still have a big problem.

I think the idea they would rubs a lot of people the wrong way. The repeal of prohibition here is pretty popular - even while tens of thousand a year are killed by drunk drivers.

There are other issues to discuss, but I think these are some that should be added to a discussion of 'Islam issues for the US'.

Your opening post did sound a bit defensive; I won't defend some of the terrible people here, but predicting you will get banned and such I think is way too much.

One final thing - Abismal, snicker. Teasing you, Hyabusa.

Craig234, thank you for your welcome. Your post is very long. I'll try to address the salient points.

I will excuse addressing nations with so-called Islamic nations. If they were rightly so, I would not be in America, where I actually am able to practice my religion correctly and freely.

Homosexuality is prohibited by religion. I do have homosexual acquaintances, and I have never been disrespectful to them, nor do I want to be. Yes, some Muslims are intolerant. I would wish them not to be intolerant, because it is not something they have a right to pass judgment on.

Just as food of thought, and not as a point of conversation, I can inform you that there are many gays in Muslim majority countries. They are not as mistreated as the perception is. Heck, there is even a openly gay tv host in my home country and he is very popular.

The theological principle in Islam does not distint between state and religion. That has unfortunately not proven to be a virtue, and I can agree that it has been quite a sad outcome. Why is it not different now? I dont have an answer. Perhaps some day it will change.

In short, the simple answer regarding Afghanistan is that if you hand a bunch of thugs weapons, they can terrorize the local population into submission. Please realize that the country has been in a state of war for almost 30+ years now.

As to your last question, all laws are meant to uphold societial values and norms, whether it be a faith based law or not. A faith based law as with common law is based on human realities, hence on a fundamental level, they are not different. Whether laws will transgress and impugne on rights of a certain segment of the population or not is an outcome of people making those laws, not the basis of the law. Example, the Patriot Act is/was a ridiculous law, made by evil people. The same can and does happen in countries with Muslim majority population. I am hopeful that such laws will be corrected in the future by good people.

I was not "defensive" in my original post. I do want my fellow Americans to be less hate-filled and reasonable, hence my contribution to AT.

 

[umbrella39]

Who you calling a sock puppet? I am just new here

Yeah...

 

[Jaskalas]

I am a regular visitor to the so called Ground Zero mosque. I pray there. I have been praying there for over 9 months now. This media frenzy only started 2/3 months ago. The reason why Americans are against it is beyond me. Here are oft-stated talking points.

If I as an American have the right to religious freedom, whats wrong with this mosque/community center?

Welcome.

Truly nothing is wrong with it. Or at least there should be nothing wrong. We, as bound by our laws, should allow it. Even if we feel wrong about it, it should not be stopped.

We feel wrong about it because, like you and so many others, that Mosque itself is a victim of September 11th. Islam and America are divided, and no serious effort has been undertaken these past 9 years to heal that wound. Feelings of your ailenation are on both sides, opposition to Islam is a consequence.

What stands before our people is a run away effect. A snowball rolling down hill gaining both size and momentum. Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are mere distractions that have turned out heads away from this impending disaster. Now it is drawing closer, growing louder. Mosques are opposed and Qurans are burning. We begin to realize something is happening. That snowball continues to roll.

It is our great shame that this snowball was not stopped earlier. That it has grown to such heights that it now requires a monumental effort. A combined effort on both our sides. Sadly I fear this will never happen. Our people are too fixated on the rumbling sound of the snowball, and wish to put on ear muffs.

The Mosque is nothing but a symptom of a much greater problem that began, for us, on September 11th.

If your reasonings are that just because of my faith, I am somewhat responsible, that is not even sound reasoning.

To be sensitive to the general American perception is taking responsibility of the tragedy. I am NOT responsible, and no one should shove that responsibility on me.

No you're not responsible.

However, part of this run away effect is the public imagine of a foreign and violent Islam. The faith in general is given blame, and the wound of September 11th paints you all with a broad brush. Alienation is a damned thing. Both sides lose trust with each other, but only trust can heal the wound.

A vast majority of you sit and comment on the forums after reading biased news outlets, while the ground perspectives of those who actually visit the mosque is never highlighted.

I'm afraid the media is not helping. The public image of Islam is of violence and foreign loyalties. It is one of terrorists and anti-Americanism. This public image drives people to think Islam is a danger to America.

The reality of you, and of others who actually visit the mosque is ignored. Yet it is you who are American. You should be the face of Islam in America, but the media has not helped you.

You need help, you need a monumental effort to replace the public image of Islam with your image. I'm sorry that no one is providing this help. I would call on Congress to create a program that does this. We need something that builds trust between us and changes the public image of Islam.


Though I’ve said much, I’ll refrain from the Quran question for now. Routan, I wish you and I could change things and that people would not feel a need to oppose Islam. That people would listen – and that America and Islam could find peace with one another. I fear our nation will make no effort to accomplish this.

 

[JSt0rm]

Moonbeam, I already addressed this point. You have every right to do so. But by doing so, you are committing a hate-filled act.

You can make the same argument for anti-semitic speech. Nonetheless, sensible people do not indulge in anti-semitic speech.

I also mentioned the Taliban destroying the Buddha Statues. They had EVERY right to do so in their country. That does NOT make it right.

Burning the Quran, and supporting that act puts you on the same level as the Taliban. That is quite shameful.

What moonbeam is trying to tell you is that you aren't amongst reasonable people. You are surrounded by bigots and idiots. Once you understand the lunacy that surrounds you, you can be released from feeling the effects of that lunacy.

 

[bfdd]

Thank you for the welcome.

The act of idiots in Britain is idiotic. There is no story related to the video. It is even sadder that this happened around Sept 11. I am not sure if this was related in response to the planned burning of the Quran, which may be taken as a mitigating factor; nonetheless, these guys probably have no jobs, no education, no money, not married (hence no sex) and so this is a result.

I would however like to say that JUST like how you are "torn apart", the burning of our Holy Scripture is many times over your feelings.

I am not responsible for these tens of idiots. I dont think this should be used as grounds for "Islam is bad" comments.

So your feelings matter more than other peoples is what your saying and that's pretty much your whole justification. Burning the flag or the Quran is in bad taste, but honestly I don't give a fuck because generally it's dumbshits doing it. Just don't act like the Quran is anything more special than the toilet paper I wipe my ass with. Everything is relative.

 

[bfdd]

The people who claim to be human forget the civility and reasoning skills that comes along with it.

What would you like other Muslims, such as myself to do with respect to people who, for example, indulge in suicide bombings? Would you like me to reason with them? I think I hold my life quite valuable, and would not indulge in discussions with mad men.

Yes, there are certain things in Islam that I hold utmost value, as do others, such as the Quran, pictorial representation of prophets, etc. Non-Muslims know this, YET they wish to do the things that are held at such high esteem? Why is that?

Which incident are you talking about when mentioning burning of Torah? Which incidence do you note where Muslims have depicted Buddha, Jesus, others in bad taste? Where there IS a depiction of Jesus (i.e. the Cross, Buddha statues), and it being contrary to Islam, have Muslims jumped around and told other faiths to stop or disrespect them?

I know of one such incidence. Do you remember the Taliban destruction of the Buddha statues? Did you cry foul then? I thought they were utter retards, and worse. If you support burning of the Quran, I hold you at their level. Congratulations.

Destroying ancient statues of Buddha that exist only ONE of in the world is different than burning a book that can be replaced and is still in print. They aren't comparable so don't compare the two.

 

[Moonbeam]

I refuse to address stupidity.

Your post was directed to MJinZ so you just did.

 

[Amused]

I am as much responsible as you are. America failed to prevent the terrorists from learning how to fly, passing through the security checks, boarding the plane and stopping the planes once it was learnt they were hijacked.

Oh wow. I bet you say women who wear short skirts were just beggin to get raped too, huh?

 

[bfdd]

Moonbeam, I already addressed this point. You have every right to do so. But by doing so, you are committing a hate-filled act.

You can make the same argument for anti-semitic speech. Nonetheless, sensible people do not indulge in anti-semitic speech.

I also mentioned the Taliban destroying the Buddha Statues. They had EVERY right to do so in their country. That does NOT make it right.

Burning the Quran, and supporting that act puts you on the same level as the Taliban. That is quite shameful.

The act is only hate filled, if it is done with hateful intentions. If your intention is to just smash the double standard that's been created in mocking Islam then there is no hate directed at Islam. This is what you don't seem to understand. I can do something to offend you and by no means have malicious intent. That's how shit works man, shades of gray.

 

[bfdd]

I dont think "terrorists" belong to any religion.

I agree. It's like saying violence is linked to one religion.

No it isn't, not in the least. Some terrorists do belong to a religion and they do use their religion as a means to justify their actions. To say otherwise is fucking ignorant. Just because not ALL terrorists are like that, doesn't mean some aren't.

 

[Lemon law]

I would like to address the idea of terrorism which has at least a 6000 year history. Since Islam has only a 1300 to 1400 year history since its founding, its absurd to associate only Islam with terrorism. Especially when we have revolutionary movements in the South and Central American continents, Catholic and Protestant terrorism was a fixture in Ireland, before the British left their Palestinian mandate Jewish terrorism was the number one mid-east issue, I can go on and one, buts worth noting WW1 was started with one terrorist assassination in what is now known as Christian Serbia.

But terrorism tends to thrive where there are great social and economic disparities that can not be addressed by traditional military means because the armies of the oppressors are too strong. And sometimes but not always the extremest who practice terrorism firmly believe the current power structure is so hopeless and corrupt, that it must be totally torn down because it can't possibly be reformed.

It does not take many people in any society to form and sustain a terrorist movement, even a few percent of the population is enough. But the way to combat terrorism is always to address the issues that cause the social inequities in the first place.

But right now, the world is going through the last gasps of European colonialism that somewhat dominated the last 500 years of human history, and because many of the last vestiges of European colonialism are located in primarily Muslim countries, that is where much of the world's terrorism is at the present time.

 

[Infohawk]

I would like to address the idea of terrorism which has at least a 6000 year history. Since Islam has only a 1300 to 1400 year history since its founding, its absurd to associate only Islam with terrorism.

Enough. Islam has been violent for most of its history. That's how it has spread and that's how it continues to spread.

A history of violence in other religions doesn't excuse Islam. WE DO NOT LIVE IN THE MIDDLE AGES ANYMORE. ISLAM NEEDS TO CATCH UP WITH THE OTHER RELIGIONS AND STOP BEING FULLY RETARDED AND JUST BE NORMAL RETARDED.

 

[Moonbeam]

Moonbeam, I already addressed this point. You have every right to do so. But by doing so, you are committing a hate-filled act.

You can make the same argument for anti-semitic speech. Nonetheless, sensible people do not indulge in anti-semitic speech.

I also mentioned the Taliban destroying the Buddha Statues. They had EVERY right to do so in their country. That does NOT make it right.

Burning the Quran, and supporting that act puts you on the same level as the Taliban. That is quite shameful.

As I said, you have notions of shame that I do not. No book means anything to me. Destroying a book is a meaningless act. I could throw one in the garbage because it's in my way. Attachment to objects is idol worship. I give you permission to worship your God so long as I have yours to do with any book that belongs to me what I will, regardless of what you may feel. I have a right to be free of any notions of morality you may have so you can have the same freedom from me. I insist on the right to be free from any notions held by your religion. They are yours, not mine. This is how America works. As long as somebody doesn't like you and you have sacred cows, somebody is going to burn your sacred cows. You can't, however, do that to me. Every action that happens happens by the Will of God and to that I chose to try to surrender.

 

[bfdd]

I would like to address the idea of terrorism which has at least a 6000 year history. Since Islam has only a 1300 to 1400 year history since its founding, its absurd to associate only Islam with terrorism. Especially when we have revolutionary movements in the South and Central American continents, Catholic and Protestant terrorism was a fixture in Ireland, before the British left their Palestinian mandate Jewish terrorism was the number one mid-east issue, I can go on and one, buts worth noting WW1 was started with one terrorist assassination in what is now known as Christian Serbia.

But terrorism tends to thrive where there are great social and economic disparities that can not be addressed by traditional military means because the armies of the oppressors are too strong. And sometimes but not always the extremest who practice terrorism firmly believe the current power structure is so hopeless and corrupt, that it must be totally torn down because it can't possibly be reformed.

It does not take many people in any society to form and sustain a terrorist movement, even a few percent of the population is enough. But the way to combat terrorism is always to address the issues that cause the social inequities in the first place.

But right now, the world is going through the last gasps of European colonialism that somewhat dominated the last 500 years of human history, and because many of the last vestiges of European colonialism are located in primarily Muslim countries, that is where much of the world's terrorism is at the present time.

Past injustices do not justify todays injustices. One group doing something fucked up way back does not make it ok for another group to do the same thing later. That's how an undeveloped mind works, you know the mind of a child. YES ISLAM IS ASSOCIATED WITH TERRORISM AND IT WILL ALWAYS BE UNTIL ALL MUSLIM TERRORISTS ARE GONE. This does NOT mean all terrorists are Muslim or that Islam drives people to be terrorists. You guys can't fucking grasp that shit. Islam is being used as a device by some groups to justify their terrorism and convert people to fight for their causes. This is a fucking fact which ties Islam very tightly to these Islamic radical groups.

 

[Fern]

my apologies. My intent was not to show who is suffering more. I was only trying to show the point that buring of the Quran makes Muslims VERY upset. I didnt mean to make it a who-suffers-more contest

(Please that I have spoken out against burning the Koran)

Americans (and the Western world) are VERY upset at the destruction of the Twin Towers and murder of 3,000 people, not to mention the numerous other terroristic actions (London Bus/Subway bombing, Madrid train station bombing, etc. etc etc.), yet we are told and accept that that these acts do NOT represent the Arab or Muslim world in general; they were just 'nuts' or radicals.

So, we have some so-called pastor (not even a real one) and about 2 dozen people threatening to burn a Koran, how is it that the Arab/Muslim world apparently doesn't accept that these 'nuts' are NOT representative of America (or the Western world)? Is everyone over here burning a Koran? No, they're not, in fact most are speaking out against it.

So, why must we accept that acts of terorism are not representative of Arabs/Muslims, yet you guys do not have to accept that these people threatening to burn a Koran are not representative of us?

Why is it that you do not repect the feelings of some people who find it offensive to build a Mosque at the GZ site, yet you demand that everyone respect your feelings about burning a Koran?

Fern

 

[routan]

So your feelings matter more than other peoples is what your saying and that's pretty much your whole justification. Burning the flag or the Quran is in bad taste, but honestly I don't give a fuck because generally it's dumbshits doing it. Just don't act like the Quran is anything more special than the toilet paper I wipe my ass with. Everything is relative.

bfdd, I already clarified my response to this before in respect to a similar post. I stated that the interpretation seen to my words is incorrect. My intent was not to enter a who-suffers-more contest, and that I was only trying to highlight the feelings of Muslims towards burning the Quran. Hope this clarifies to you as well

 

[routan]

Destroying ancient statues of Buddha that exist only ONE of in the world is different than burning a book that can be replaced and is still in print. They aren't comparable so don't compare the two.

As you stated above, this is all relative. The Taliban can simply argue that one builds the statue elsewhere in the same likeness. Every single Quran printed is sacred.