A question about organic farming

[XMan]

As opposed to modern methods, with genmod seeds. (Brought about by Prince Charles' comments here.)

The main problem with organic farming as I see it is yields. There was a book a few decades (the name escapes me) back that postulated that the earth's population could not exceed a certain point, given the production capacities of farming. It's since been proven false as the population has grown past that point. Not that the writer's calculations were wrong, just that he didn't accont for improvements in farm technology, crop yields, etc. Given the production rates of the era, his claims were quite accurate.

Now, it is quite the culturally relevent thing to bash inorganic farming, as seen by Prince Charles' diatribe. But, even if we did away with all of the large farming corporations (and, let it be known, with a few exceptions like ADM and ConAgra, most farming corporations are family owned and operated, and incorporated to avoid estate taxes) and switched entirely over to organic, the production would not be able to keep pace with the worldwide population.

But is the switch really worth it? Instead of using chemical fertilizer that is completely safe, organic farming replaces it with . . . well . . . poop. When you get down to it they're chemically identical, just without that poopy goodness. I'd really not like to follow a "honey wagon" down the road, thank you very much. Never mind that insecticides and target pesticides essentially eliminate crop loss due to weeds and bugs (IIRC the percentage of crop loss typically doubles in a completely organic farming environment. See: the Amish. Not exactly the lifestyle I aspire too.)

Here is an article detailing some responses to Prince Charles' position. It seems to me to be the age-old debate between feeling ("organis is good!") versus reason ("yes, but we can do it more efficiently.") Thoughts?

 

[Darwin333]

Organic food is for rich folk.

Go ask someone whose family hasn't eaten in a few days if they really care if the food is organic or not. Hell, I think we could make Africa a MUCH better place by simply implementing the farming techniques/irrigation that we currently use in the US.

 

[JS80]

I don't do organic, i don't like insects in my veggies. Pesticide please. Thanks.

lol prince charles says this without any support:

He said "clever genetic engineering" by "gigantic corporations" would "cause the biggest disaster environmentally of all time".

 

[preCRT]

You can use non-organic methods and still be opposed to gm seeds.

 

[herm0016]

we have been genetically modifying seeds for hundreds of years, what do you think the farmers were doing when they took a really good plant that was resistant to some bug, and bred it with another plant that produced more, what had more bugs? its basic genetic modification. we are just better at it now so we can take genes from other things to make the plants better.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: herm0016
we have been genetically modifying seeds for hundreds of years, what do you think the farmers were doing when they took a really good plant that was resistant to some bug, and bred it with another plant that produced more, what had more bugs? its basic genetic modification. we are just better at it now so we can take genes from other things to make the plants better.

Actually, thousands. From the first days of civilization when humans began cultivating grains, we have been gentically altering the plants. Corn, wheat and other grains look and taste nothing like their ancestors.

Recently, we have been able to speed up the process, but none of us have ever eaten non-genitically modified food.

So the whole point of organic farming is that while it is nice to not use pesticides, plan on lower yields (generally), higher maintenance and higher costs.

 

[StageLeft]

Organic is definitely for wealthy. There is a reason it was adopted to begin with. For effort/money used it returns a greater amount of calories, that is the real point of it.

Actually, thousands.

Actually, one hundred billion years!

 

[ayabe]

The awesome part about organic food is that the vast majority of it is produced by the same corporate farms who supply the "other" food. It's just an excuse to charge a 15-25% premium and make smug white people feel superior to other white people.

Also, if we all ate organic food there would be worldwide starvation.

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: ayabe
The awesome part about organic food is that the vast majority of it is produced by the same corporate farms who supply the "other" food. It's just an excuse to charge a 15-25% premium and make smug white people feel superior to other white people.

Also, if we all ate organic food there would be worldwide starvation.

Yes yes, because white people are the ONLY ones that have any money that they show off...

Could we stop with the racist comments?

 

[43st]

Originally posted by: dphantom

Originally posted by: herm0016
we have been genetically modifying seeds for hundreds of years, what do you think the farmers were doing when they took a really good plant that was resistant to some bug, and bred it with another plant that produced more, what had more bugs? its basic genetic modification. we are just better at it now so we can take genes from other things to make the plants better.

Actually, thousands. From the first days of civilization when humans began cultivating grains, we have been gentically altering the plants. Corn, wheat and other grains look and taste nothing like their ancestors.

Recently, we have been able to speed up the process, but none of us have ever eaten non-genitically modified food.

So the whole point of organic farming is that while it is nice to not use pesticides, plan on lower yields (generally), higher maintenance and higher costs.

Only problem is that conventional breeding is not genetic modification. Thousands of years of breeding will never get insect DNA into a plant.

EDIT: Amish are not organic, not sure what OP was getting at with that comment. Lots of bad info in this thread. Generally the argument is sustainable agricultural verse modern high yield farming. Organic shouldn't be part of that discussion.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: ayabe
The awesome part about organic food is that the vast majority of it is produced by the same corporate farms who supply the "other" food. It's just an excuse to charge a 15-25% premium and make smug white people feel superior to other white people.

Also, if we all ate organic food there would be worldwide starvation.

A guy who stocks milk at my grocery said that the organic stuff they sell is from the same farm and the same actual milk as the regular they sell for a gallon/less. I'm sure this isn't the same everywhere, but it is telling.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: ayabe
The awesome part about organic food is that the vast majority of it is produced by the same corporate farms who supply the "other" food. It's just an excuse to charge a 15-25% premium and make smug white people feel superior to other white people.

Also, if we all ate organic food there would be worldwide starvation.

More ignorance ftl.

Yes, it is true that a lot of organics producers were acquired by larger farms. That still doesn't change the core philosophy of more responsible agricultural practices. Just because a farm is large doesn't mean they are unable to exercise more responsibility in creating a better product.

Unfortunately, many companies have exploited the organics market and created confusion so as to elicit responses like yours. This is a fault of the marketplace, and it's why there are countless movements right now to reclaim the original purpose behind organics in the first place. As a start, you might want to look at community supported agriculture (CSAs). This is the most organized embodiment of what organics used to be.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Organic is definitely for wealthy. There is a reason it was adopted to begin with. For effort/money used it returns a greater amount of calories, that is the real point of it.

Actually, thousands.

Actually, one hundred billion years!

True.

I was referring to man modified foodstuffs.

 

[Moonbeam]

I hate myself so I don't give a shit what I eat. Who cares if my pork chop comes from a pig that also grows human skin. Who cares if my passion fruit flew in on a cargo plane load of CO2. Who cares, really, about anything. I'm a young tough turk of an asshole and not a father who cares for his kids. I like to swing my dick in the air and pretend to be my stupid idea of what it means to be a man. That organic crap isn't getting to me. And I'm looking for a woman who loves to eat shit too.

 

[Oceandevi]

Originally posted by: 43st

Originally posted by: dphantom

Originally posted by: herm0016
we have been genetically modifying seeds for hundreds of years, what do you think the farmers were doing when they took a really good plant that was resistant to some bug, and bred it with another plant that produced more, what had more bugs? its basic genetic modification. we are just better at it now so we can take genes from other things to make the plants better.

Actually, thousands. From the first days of civilization when humans began cultivating grains, we have been gentically altering the plants. Corn, wheat and other grains look and taste nothing like their ancestors.

Recently, we have been able to speed up the process, but none of us have ever eaten non-genitically modified food.

So the whole point of organic farming is that while it is nice to not use pesticides, plan on lower yields (generally), higher maintenance and higher costs.

Only problem is that conventional breeding is not genetic modification. Thousands of years of breeding will never get insect DNA into a plant.

EDIT: Amish are not organic, not sure what OP was getting at with that comment. Lots of bad info in this thread. Generally the argument is sustainable agricultural verse modern high yield farming. Organic shouldn't be part of that discussion.

So inserting insect DNA is the only form of genetic modification? Using an organisms own reproductive methods to our own ends is a form of genetic manipulation. Line breeding is far from "conventional" breeding. Isolating recessive genes is a delicate process.

 

[LumbergTech]

i eat organic

im broke, i can barely get by

i dont shop @ walmart

i guess im just a selfish piece of shit according to most of the people in this thread

i personally dont agree that non-contaminated foods are a negative thing, i see it as a starting point

give me a break with this worldwide starvation bullshit..

we have an incredible excess of food (currently) (yes, not ALL Food, but a lot of it)

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: ayabe
The awesome part about organic food is that the vast majority of it is produced by the same corporate farms who supply the "other" food. It's just an excuse to charge a 15-25% premium and make smug white people feel superior to other white people.

Also, if we all ate organic food there would be worldwide starvation.

More ignorance ftl.

Yes, it is true that a lot of organics producers were acquired by larger farms. That still doesn't change the core philosophy of more responsible agricultural practices. Just because a farm is large doesn't mean they are unable to exercise more responsibility in creating a better product.

Unfortunately, many companies have exploited the organics market and created confusion so as to elicit responses like yours. This is a fault of the marketplace, and it's why there are countless movements right now to reclaim the original purpose behind organics in the first place. As a start, you might want to look at community supported agriculture (CSAs). This is the most organized embodiment of what organics used to be.

Sure I'll agree with that, but I see it as the reincarnation of bottled water. I'm not saying there are no benefits to eating organic food, but I believe it's over-hyped and being exploited by mass marketers trying to find another "elite" product for upper middle class white people to consume.

Also, certain parts of the world are facing food shortages even now, so it's not a myth that if we reverted to 19th century farming techniques we wouldn't be able to feed everyone, that's a fact.

 

[43st]

Originally posted by: Oceandevi
So inserting insect DNA is the only form of genetic modification? Using an organisms own reproductive methods to our own ends is a form of genetic manipulation. Line breeding is far from "conventional" breeding. Isolating recessive genes is a delicate process.

Yes, which is why it's called 'Genetically Modified'. Reproduction doesn't change DNA, it changes genes. That being said certain things can directly effect DNA, i.e. radiation.

Just look at all the different types of dogs.. it's all the same DNA strand. Not a single dog breed has been created by inserting foreign DNA.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: ayabe
The awesome part about organic food is that the vast majority of it is produced by the same corporate farms who supply the "other" food. It's just an excuse to charge a 15-25% premium and make smug white people feel superior to other white people.

Also, if we all ate organic food there would be worldwide starvation.

More ignorance ftl.

Yes, it is true that a lot of organics producers were acquired by larger farms. That still doesn't change the core philosophy of more responsible agricultural practices. Just because a farm is large doesn't mean they are unable to exercise more responsibility in creating a better product.

Unfortunately, many companies have exploited the organics market and created confusion so as to elicit responses like yours. This is a fault of the marketplace, and it's why there are countless movements right now to reclaim the original purpose behind organics in the first place. As a start, you might want to look at community supported agriculture (CSAs). This is the most organized embodiment of what organics used to be.

Sure I'll agree with that, but I see it as the reincarnation of bottled water. I'm not saying there are no benefits to eating organic food, but I believe it's over-hyped and being exploited by mass marketers trying to find another "elite" product for upper middle class white people to consume.

Also, certain parts of the world are facing food shortages even now, so it's not a myth that if we reverted to 19th century farming techniques we wouldn't be able to feed everyone, that's a fact.

are you saying that newer methods couldnt be applied to organic (or maybe a different specification , not organic, but not involving specifically bad chemicals for instance)

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: 43st

Originally posted by: dphantom

Originally posted by: herm0016
we have been genetically modifying seeds for hundreds of years, what do you think the farmers were doing when they took a really good plant that was resistant to some bug, and bred it with another plant that produced more, what had more bugs? its basic genetic modification. we are just better at it now so we can take genes from other things to make the plants better.

Actually, thousands. From the first days of civilization when humans began cultivating grains, we have been gentically altering the plants. Corn, wheat and other grains look and taste nothing like their ancestors.

Recently, we have been able to speed up the process, but none of us have ever eaten non-genitically modified food.

So the whole point of organic farming is that while it is nice to not use pesticides, plan on lower yields (generally), higher maintenance and higher costs.

Only problem is that conventional breeding is not genetic modification. Thousands of years of breeding will never get insect DNA into a plant.

EDIT: Amish are not organic, not sure what OP was getting at with that comment. Lots of bad info in this thread. Generally the argument is sustainable agricultural verse modern high yield farming. Organic shouldn't be part of that discussion.

Sorry about that, my son was sitting in my lap trying to "help" me post and I didn't finish my thought. I was wanting to talk about how many proponents of organic farming also seem to lean to almost a neoLuddite position where all modern conveniences - chemicals and equipment - are somehow bad. Hence the Amish reference. Myself I don't really fancy having to use horse to plow a field . . . although it does multitask a bit on the organic fertilizer.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech
i eat organic

im broke, i can barely get by

i dont shop @ walmart

i guess im just a selfish piece of shit according to most of the people in this thread

i personally dont agree that non-contaminated foods are a negative thing, i see it as a starting point

give me a break with this worldwide starvation bullshit..

we have an incredible excess of food (currently) (yes, not ALL Food, but a lot of it)

Yes, and the drastic increases in the commodity prices of corn, soy, and related livestock who depend on those commodities for feed bear that out. Oh . . . wait, no they don't.

That's a biofuel issue though, and another thread entirely.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: LumbergTech
i eat organic

im broke, i can barely get by

i dont shop @ walmart

i guess im just a selfish piece of shit according to most of the people in this thread

i personally dont agree that non-contaminated foods are a negative thing, i see it as a starting point

give me a break with this worldwide starvation bullshit..

we have an incredible excess of food (currently) (yes, not ALL Food, but a lot of it)

Yes, and the drastic increases in the commodity prices of corn, soy, and related livestock who depend on those commodities for feed bear that out. Oh . . . wait, no they don't.

That's a biofuel issue though, and another thread entirely.

How's the crime rate, the psycho rate, and the misery rate among the Amish? Every miserable bastard I've ever met wouldn't change a thing because he fears it will be worse.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: 43st

Originally posted by: dphantom

Originally posted by: herm0016
we have been genetically modifying seeds for hundreds of years, what do you think the farmers were doing when they took a really good plant that was resistant to some bug, and bred it with another plant that produced more, what had more bugs? its basic genetic modification. we are just better at it now so we can take genes from other things to make the plants better.

Actually, thousands. From the first days of civilization when humans began cultivating grains, we have been gentically altering the plants. Corn, wheat and other grains look and taste nothing like their ancestors.

Recently, we have been able to speed up the process, but none of us have ever eaten non-genitically modified food.

So the whole point of organic farming is that while it is nice to not use pesticides, plan on lower yields (generally), higher maintenance and higher costs.

Only problem is that conventional breeding is not genetic modification. Thousands of years of breeding will never get insect DNA into a plant.

EDIT: Amish are not organic, not sure what OP was getting at with that comment. Lots of bad info in this thread. Generally the argument is sustainable agricultural verse modern high yield farming. Organic shouldn't be part of that discussion.

Sorry about that, my son was sitting in my lap trying to "help" me post and I didn't finish my thought. I was wanting to talk about how many proponents of organic farming also seem to lean to almost a neoLuddite position where all modern conveniences - chemicals and equipment - are somehow bad. Hence the Amish reference. Myself I don't really fancy having to use horse to plow a field . . . although it does multitask a bit on the organic fertilizer.

I think there has to be a middle ground between these two viewpoints

we dont need to pour tons of chemicals onto our crops..but we dont need to shun modern practices either

 

[JSt0rm]

I want everybody to go buy organic strawberries in the middle of the season and then but some factory strawberries and tell me what tastes better. I eat probably 30% organic and this test will make you really open your eyes. In fact when you can smell the strawberries from 20ft away you will understand.

 

[Vic]

The book the OP refers to is Paul Ehrlich's "Population Bomb." It was a crock, an abuse of Malthus, but still held as the bible by anti-humanists everywhere.

However, the OP's point is mistaken. Hey, I used to feel the same way, but then I educated myself on the issue. Organic farming is not a step back but a step forwards to more efficient farming techniques. Given time to develop, it will produce more than sufficient yields, and it will do so more efficiently than chemical and GM methods, especially for people in poor developing countries. Most likely, the farms of the future will integrate all these techniques to produce the highest quality foods with the highest yields. Which is what it's all about, right?
I still don't like the name "organic" though. Forgetting that its a marketing label to encourage people to pay more, all foods are organic. And so are the pesticides even. Meh.