A question for atheists/etc

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: kenji4life
Okay.. someone needs to lay off the crack pipe.

Nice arguement by the way. I guess noone can dispute the steady state.
oh and by the way, I only said theory once, not 9 times. and I didn't say it was "only" a theory. Only that it was a theory and not accepted fact. And stop trying to shove that crap in my face, any idiot knows that you can sit here and say that everything in the universe is a theory, including that we are breathing air, there is no spoon, etc, but really cut the crap if you can't respond maturely.

For most cosmologists, the refutation of the steady-state theory came with the discovery of the cosmic background radiation in 1965, which was predicted by the big bang theory. Steven Hawking said that the fact that microwave radiation had been found, and that it was thought to be left over from the big bang, was "the final nail in the coffin of the steady-state theory." Within the steady state theory this background radiation is the result of light from ancient stars which has been scattered by galactic dust. However, this explanation has been unconvincing to most cosmologists as the cosmic microwave background is very smooth, making it difficult to explain how it arose from point sources, and the microwave background shows no evidence of features such as polarization which are normally associated with scattering. Furthermore, its spectrum is so close to that of an ideal black body that it could hardly be formed by the superposition of contributions from dust clumps at different temperatures as well as at different redshifts. Steven Weinberg wrote in 1972,

The steady state model does not appear to agree with the observed dL versus z relation or with source counts ... In a sense, the disagreement is a credit to the model; alone among all cosmologies, the steady state model makes such definite predictions that it can be disproved even with the limited observational evidence at our disposal. The steady-state model is so attractive that many of its adherents still retain hope that the evidence against it will disappear as observations improve. However, if the cosmic microwave background radiation ... is really black-body radiation, it will be difficult to doubt that the universe has evolved from a hotter, denser early stage.

As of 2006, the majority of astronomers consider the big bang theory to be the best description of the origin of the universe. In most astrophysical publications, the big bang is implicitly accepted and is used as the basis of more complete theories. At the same time, after the unexpected observation of an accelerating universe in the late-1990s, there were efforts to develop quasi-steady state theories, in which it is said that there is not a single big bang but rather multiple big bangs over time which create matter.

link

I think that about sums it up.

 

[kenji4life]

A theory is a broad generalization that explains a body of facts or phenomena (from prepchem.org)

furthermore, James N Gardner said:
"But if (Andrei) Linde and his colleagues are correct, the process of continuous creation (lots of big bangs) operates at a scale utterly beyond our capacity to physically envision it ? not mere atoms but entire new baby universes are continuously created in an eternal process with striking parallels to (Fred) Hoyle's discarded steady-state cosmological theory."
in review of bye bye big bang, hello reality: by William C Mitchell

It does indeed. But the last part of your quotation was intended in my original post, thanks.

Originally posted by: kenji4life
Oh, and before anyone else tries this arguement, I'll do it for them. Say the big bang IS proven and is the definite cause of the creation of our known universe. How then do we know that this 'universe' we then know is not a miniscule speck among a neverending expanse?

The biggest hole will always be that our theories can only be made based upon our observations. We are only able to see so much of the universe as we know it.

 

[Netopia]

Originally posted by: linkgoron
I saw a TV show about christianity on the science channel... From what they said Jesus was basically some sort of an idea, and more of a person to inspire to be as, than an actualy guy that walks on water, or is the son of god, or all that stuff...

As for you being an atheist because of not believing in Jesus.... who said that makes you an atheist? The same person who said early Christians didn't believe in Jesus perhaps?

hmmmm
Topic Title: A question for atheists/etc
Topic Summary: What makes you not believe in Jesus?

Me thinks the documentary was a bit messed up....

But as for your second part... DOH! Now I understand. Mea Culpa!

Joe

 

[imported_obsidian]

Originally posted by: kenji4life
and I didn't say it was "only" a theory. Only that it was a theory and not accepted fact.

His point is NOTHING in science is accepted as fact.

 

[imported_obsidian]

Originally posted by: kenji4life
The biggest hole will always be that our theories can only be made based upon our observations. We are only able to see so much of the universe as we know it.

What is better proof than observation? Also, theories are made on more than observation. Observation is just used as evidence to backup or disprove those theories.

 

[Patrick Wolf]

What about near death experiences? People die, have a vision or whatever, than are brought back and tell about it? BS?

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: Patrick Wolf
What about near death experiences? People die, have a vision or whatever, than are brought back and tell about it? BS?

Who knows what sort of weird malfunctions may occur in the mind when the bloodflow to it stops. Well I guess people who've had near-death experiences do...

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Patrick Wolf
What about near death experiences? People die, have a vision or whatever, than are brought back and tell about it? BS?

What about people who don't have any visions during near death experiences? BS?

 

[shadow9d9]

Hallowed are the Aureye!

 

[busmaster11]

Some are called to rise above cynicism, personal arrogance and pride, and the myopism of social trends and fads to seek the truth - not merely from their own flawed and biased perspective, but from one that, abeit unpopular and uncomfortable, will lead to everlasting life.

Others chose sex, drugs, alcohol, and other temporal illusions of personal gratification. As the Bible said, the road to heaven is narrow one, and few will find it.

 

[IAteYourMother]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: kenji4life
Ha. I find a major problem with much of the arguement here. While being widely accepted as the most probable among much of the scientific community, the big bang is still a theory.

STOP SAYING SOMETHING'S ONLY A THEORY, THEORIES ARE THE HIGHEST FORM THERE
IS!
STOP SAYING SOMETHING'S ONLY A THEORY, THEORIES ARE THE HIGHEST FORM THERE IS!
STOP SAYING SOMETHING'S ONLY A THEORY, THEORIES ARE THE HIGHEST FORM THERE IS!
STOP SAYING SOMETHING'S ONLY A THEORY, THEORIES ARE THE HIGHEST FORM THERE IS!
STOP SAYING SOMETHING'S ONLY A THEORY, THEORIES ARE THE HIGHEST FORM THERE IS!
STOP SAYING SOMETHING'S ONLY A THEORY, THEORIES ARE THE HIGHEST FORM THERE IS!
STOP SAYING SOMETHING'S ONLY A THEORY, THEORIES ARE THE HIGHEST FORM THERE IS!
STOP SAYING SOMETHING'S ONLY A THEORY, THEORIES ARE THE HIGHEST FORM THERE IS!
STOP SAYING SOMETHING'S ONLY A THEORY, THEORIES ARE THE HIGHEST FORM THERE IS!

meh, I think the concept of a big bang is not unfavorable toward the idea that God or a god exists.

 

[DarkKnight69]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
Well, see, heres the problem.
I cant talk about this kind of stuff without seperating god from religion.

I got no beef with god, and I'm pretty sure J.C. did live and die and was one cool cat.
But I dont see god in the same light as christians.

And here comes the problem.
I think religion is horrible. Its the culmination of everything bad in man.
The main trouble is only the religious normally feel like talking about god. And they see god in a totally different way from me and then I really cant talk to them.

Enough rant. I have been down this road before and it usually pisses people off.

It is a culmination of everything bad in man because it is exposed by our most primal instincts. Same as when a life is threatened, our emotions, everything step out and the primordial urge kicks in!

It is just humans taking their instinctual needs and fabricating a way to fill them...

 

[DarkKnight69]

Originally posted by: HermDogg

5) Why does God need worship?

This is one question that I would love to be answered!

Why does a man that give us goodness and love require us to bend to our knees and ask forgiveness and offer thanks. This makes him sound like a tyrant to me. There are 2 issues with this:

1. If he were truly as the bible says, he would know that mankind was grateful to him and he would not require our worship.

2. He would not think any less of us for not believing in him because it was him who gave us the ability to not believe!

 

[DarkKnight69]

Originally posted by: Netopia

Originally posted by: So
1. Instinct arguments hold up when given a broad scope, but I won't make that arguemnt.

Simply put, ethics is an objective excersize of reason that has no requirement for the existence of a diety. As a logical extension of ethics and reason, one can conclude that a rational agent (i.e. a human) holds special status.

But why? What absolutely logical, purely scientific reason could there be. If instinct, then it is merely programmed emotion that could be overcome easily enough... many criminals do just that.

Joe

I made this arguement earlier.

Animals are programmed to group (some). Humans are very social animals. We see many socialogical problems to children that are segregated or people that are segregated. However, we are also much more evolved then basic animals.

So, if we are able to conciously 'make' ourselves feel not alone, why not. It allows the instincual urge to be filled. This would explain a few things:

1. Why there are many different religeons...if you are trying to fill a need, it does not really matter where you fill the need from.

2. Why there are atheists...if they are socially stable and dont require anything further to hold them they will remain without faith until that need is aroused.

3. Why many people will turn to faith after something traumatic...traumatic events often make us feel alone, the need is present so it will be filled.

Whether or not we like to admit it, under the complexities and social structures we build, we are basic animals that have basic needs. We will fill these needs if it is what it takes to make us survive.

On a side note:

Comparing quantum physics to religeon as a faith is not accurate.

I dont believe in god because i dont believe there is anything pointing towards it. on the other hand since I dont know quantum physics i dont profess to believe that either. What I say when I say science is what we can PROVE around us. Lets not debate what we cant prove and work on what we can.

Evolution is real, if you do not believe that you are blind. No we are not seeing monkey change into humans, but we can watch bacteria evolve right before our eyes.

 

[Theb]

Originally posted by: huberm
As a Christian I have developed a relationship with Jesus and through faith, without a shadow of a doubt, I know He exists and He is Lord.

However, I have a hard time understanding the motive behind not searching for an answer by many.

I've agreed with one of the "Skeptic's Prayers" and I've even agreed to no time limit for god to "soften my heart" or "make me know him"
I'm also happy to consider evidence for a theistic world view.

 

[BadNewsBears]

Originally posted by: huberm
What makes you not beleive.

Is there something out there that should make me?

 

[Netopia]

Originally posted by: DarkKnight69

Originally posted by: HermDogg

5) Why does God need worship?

This is one question that I would love to be answered!

Why does a man that give us goodness and love require us to bend to our knees and ask forgiveness and offer thanks. This makes him sound like a tyrant to me. There are 2 issues with this:

1. If he were truly as the bible says, he would know that mankind was grateful to him and he would not require our worship.

2. He would not think any less of us for not believing in him because it was him who gave us the ability to not believe!

I think you think too highly of humans. What is it most humans seek in one form or another? Esteem. Whether it be a car, muscles, money, position, relationships, a hot gaming box.... whatever.... all humans desire at some level to be elevated and have others look up to them. An all knowing God would understand this, and having given a certain amount of self-determination to his creatures, would set up some sort of system (religion?) by which they could be reminded that they AREN'T the be all end all and that they should instead humble themselves.

So really... what is it about Biblical Christianity that bothers you so much?

That Jesus said for people to be humble and forgive?
That Jesus taught people to think of others first?
That Jesus taught that some things were wrong?
That Jesus said that being meek (powerful but controlled) was the way to go?
That Jesus taught that living wasn't all about this life, and we should put others first?
That Jesus taught that a true neighbor was someone who loved others?
That YOU AND I have done bad things, but HE'S willing to overlook them because he loves us?
That He loves us so much that he'd die for us, even if we HATE Him?
That He wants us to tell others that there's hope for them too?
That Hell is a person's choice and we ourselves are to condemn no one, even in word?

C'mon.... tell me what it is about BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY that you find so offensive? Forget all the hype of what is portrayed as "Christian" in the media. The media only shows the extremes so that they can get ratings. Tell me what THE BIBLE teaches people to do as Christians that's so horrible? Please, point to a New Testament teaching that you think is evil.

Perhaps the problem is that HUMANS are always involved in Religion. And therefore Religion will most alwasy be flawed. But that's not God, that's just messed up people tying to do their best.... and sadly, in some cases, messed up people using religion to try to elevate themselves by putting others down, but that's NOT what is taught in the Bible.

Joe

 

[alejandroAT]

just stumbled upon this thread and i would like to answer to the first post and the author.

Atheism is not a religion, so dont expect that there is a group out threre whose members all believe in the same thing.

I am an atheist myself in the sense that i don't beleive in god. But i could sit down with another atheist and argue for a lifetime. I do not claim to have any answers for our existence or purpose in life. I do not look down upon people who have found these answers in a religion and neither do i critisize them. They have found peace and comfort whereas i'll be alone and restless forever. That is a choice i have made.

But as you say, you cannot understand atheists not looking for answers. Atheists are the ONLY ones who are looking for answers. The minute you embrace a religion then you embrace the answers that the particular religion is providing. Different religions provide different answers or indeed different interpretations of the same texts.

Just look at the 3 abrahamic religions Judaism, Christianity, Islam (in order of appearance). They all have their foundations on the same old legends and stories and texts that where found. Its just that the interpretation was different. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet of God but not the messiah like the christians believe. They probably didn;t believe in some scriptures. Christians do not believe in a whole different set of scriptures. It's that whoever is in charge of a specific religion has a little meeting with his bros and decide what is valid and what is not upon their own mortal reasoning. They then procede to make a book of law that contains whetever these people want it to contain.

Focusing on Christianity, it is a religion founded on information that was mostly mistranslated. Whereas the Torah and the Coran remain written in the original language, the Bible was translated from Latin and Greek. These latin and greek translations where in turn really bad themselves.......where am i getting at you may say?

You mentioned that you cannot understand that atheists dont look for answers. Well i can tell you that I cannot believe because for me what you are doing is unthinkable. I just don't find it logical to go along and believe in something because this is what the people around me believe in the place and time i was born, beleifs that were passed on from generation to generation and based on badly translated texts. I could have been brought up in an atheist community and i wouldn't even know that there is such a thing as a god and that some people believe in him/her/them. But because people are mostly brought up with specific religious beleifs, they automatically go along and never question. They accept the answers provided without checking for their validity.

And never mix FAITH with RELIGION.......no no...bad bad habit that religious people have.

Have faith in people, have faith in yourself and your life will be wonderfull......you don't need to be part of a cult or religion or golf club so as not to feel alone....we are all alone.

we were born alone and we will die alone and the minute you realise it its the minute you will find the answers and the piece you seek. because only then will you appreciate this life that you have and be good to everyone around you. And you will do that because you will know thats the only chance you have. This whole paradise thing and the afterlife is exactly what makes people so bad in this world. They always have in the back of their heads this possibility that when they die and face God, they will have that chance to repend and redeem themselves, nomatter what they have done.

Anyway, this is going to go on forever,

 

[jack bauer]

"Anyway, this is going to go on forever,"


To a lesser degree though. I study religion and behaviorial genetics, and scientists are right now isolating parts of the brain involved in religious experience. To the atheists on here, you can not convience monists and theists that there is no god. Once you overcome the fear of hell or whatver you call it, humans are on there own to do good things, because we all feel pain the same, to some variation of physiology. Feeling god is a human condition, a complex mixture of physiology and psychology. To the 'theologians', embrace your faith and have comfort, but do not embrace true negatives, and be good to everyone. Once atheists understand completly what we are dealing with, things are slow to change, but will. Teach your children that people can be good on there own, and to help others not as fortunate, god or not.

 

[Mikey]

Originally posted by: rdubbz420

Originally posted by: Wag
I'm Jewish.

You?re going to hell.

Only to be burned again, eh?

 

[alejandroAT]

what do you mean "religious experience"? a trance? a state of deep meditation? illusions? halucinations?
What is often called a "religious experience" or a "manifestation of the divine" is just an altered state of mind. Monotheists perceive it as God, pagans perceive it as the forces of nature, shamans perceive it as the locked knowledge inside ones head. Attaching the term "god" to any unexplained phenomenon is a tendency that you argue is natural. But isn't it just our craving to be cared of by a mother/father figure for the duration of our lives? In out childhood we perceive our parents as gods. then comes the realisation in the teens that they are just people like you and I. Chaos follows as you feel alone for the first time, like the first time you bested your dad at something. So you reach for the all knowing paternal figure available at a church near you. If you lived in a hut somewhere in the jungle then you would find this figure on the village shaman and his protecting gods. So you see you have no choice. Inescapably you will just follow the beleives available in your neighborhood. I mean, even jews and muslims celebrate christmas these days. Seriously, I know a jewish couple that puts up a tree on christmas just for the kids to enjoy because they live in a christian society.

So you lose all rights to argue! the religion you are trying to sell is the religion imposed on you. Why conveince people that Christ was the messiah? why not conveince them that Muhamad is the messiah? or Budha? or indeed Ghandi himself or Maria Tereza. Why not indeed convince them that the "divine" is an idea. The idea of the ideal. And by default this idea can never materialize, it can never be achieved. Hence god moved from mount olympus, to the sky, to space, to outside the universe. Because god has to unobtainable. Its the whole point. If you prayed and he answered you probably would grow out of him after a while like you did with the parents.

So yes, feeling "god" is a human condition. But is "god" the idea of the divine? or is god a physical being (or energy what have you)?

 

[GoingUp]

Originally posted by: Eghck
<Esqueleto> "I believe in science" <Esqueleto>

 

[mattpegher]

Although I see organized religion as having some benifit to the discussion of morality, ethics and the clarifiing of evil, I believe that no church/synogogue/mosque of today is without its alterior motives (money, power etc). And that the divisive nature of different religions has caused as much suffering as it has good. Religous teaching are only the first step. I was raised catholic but do not feel that any one religion has the whole answer. And furthermore, I believe that all of their claims to be the one true religion are more political than philosophic.

Lets break it down. DO NO EVIL or you will suffer. Evil is defined as any act that causes suffering to a sentient being. The degree of evil varies depending on the degree of suffering and the degree of sentience. Break down a stone wall, no evil. Kill a plant, a little, less if you needed to to live, ie eat. Kill an animal, a bit more, again did you need to (some day technology will be good enough that we will no longer have any justification to kill animals to eat). Kill in defense of your life or others, again it varies. And so on.

In my mind the ultimate evil is to harm someone because they have a different belief system than yours.

I do believe that if you are truely sorrowfull and see the evil that you have done, you suffer now while you are alive. I don't think that you wipe the slate clean.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: huberm
As a Christian I have developed a relationship with Jesus and through faith, without a shadow of a doubt, I know He exists and He is Lord.

However, I have a hard time understanding the motive behind not searching for an answer by many. Please don't take this post the wrong way, I am not trying to offend nor convict anyone, I am just curious in knowing your thoughts.

From what I understand, an atheist believes there is no God and our existence is merely a coincidence that happened at some point a long time ago, is this correct? Also, do you feel it is logical to think that once our body dies, we cease to exist forever?

Again, I am not trying to offend anyone. I am just seeking these answers out of curiosity. I would greatly appreciate it if no one flamed another's religion, it would make the discussion go much smoother.

Thanks!

Answer yourself. What makes you disbelieve the same of: Zoroaster, Abraham, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammed... ?

I think the obvious answer will be that you have some or much distrust in them, mostly because of your upbringing, neighbours, etc. If you extend that same privilege to others, you'll see exactly why Jesus isn't accepted by everybody.

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: scttgrd
There is no god, as soon as you realize this fact you begin to see that religon is no more than a pyramid scheme making alot of money.

Which habitutally suck in the weak minded.




Ausm