A question for atheists/etc

[alejandroAT]

quote: "The idea of 3-in-1 was actually invented between 300-400 years after Christ death. I can get you more information on that if you wish. "

Christianity itself was invented 300 years after the birth of Christ. Constantine, being the politician that he was saw that he had no choice and so invented it to please the people. A smart man. It has nothing to do with the Church of Christ that was formed by the apostoles (paul and so on). Do not forget that everything we know about god and christ is taken from latin and greek texts that were translations of the originals. And the originals themselves were also written by people. Deeply religious people that aslo happen to come from a land famous for its hallucinations. The desert is a tricky place my friend. If someone came from the desert saying that god spoke to him and this is what he said i would be giving him a glass of water and then calling the local crazyhouse.

Maybe it is time to question the origin of our knowledge. Everything you and I are discussing right now, and i mean everything, was written by men whose credentials are unknown. And i m sure that back then bibliography and references was not first priority. Anyone could just say anything and have followers. So what is your own personal experience that has convinced you of the existance of god? please do not say the bible because it was written by men. If we like and agree with something it is not enough to make it real. For example i consider myself to be a good man but thats probably far from the truth!

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: huberm

Originally posted by: Cattlegod
searching for an answer presumes that there is a question. for many people, this question does not exist. I ask you, what question did you have that you needed to search and find an answer for?

I came to the realization that there was no way that we were put on this Earth to exist for only a short time, and then fade away forever. There had to be some continuance beyond physically dying.

This is a perfect example of how people believe what they want to believe. You really don't want your existence to be over when you die. Believing there's an after life feels better than believing there's not. It's the same reason many lottery players just
'have a feeling' they'll win the lottery this time. It feels better to believe they'll win, so they do. It feels better to believe there's a god watching over you that will make sure everything is ok, so people keep believing it.

 

[Ilmater]

Does anyone else think it's ridiculous for the OP to have only posted twice in what is now an 11-page thread?

He's a troll.

We've discussed this subject before; let it die.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT

Christianity itself was invented 300 years after the birth of Christ. Constantine, being the politician that he was saw that he had no choice and so invented it to please the people. A smart man. It has nothing to do with the Church of Christ that was formed by the apostoles (paul and so on). Do not forget that everything we know about god and christ is taken from latin and greek texts that were translations of the originals. And the originals themselves were also written by people. Deeply religious people that aslo happen to come from a land famous for its hallucinations. The desert is a tricky place my friend. If someone came from the desert saying that god spoke to him and this is what he said i would be giving him a glass of water and then calling the local crazyhouse.

Christianity as the world knows it was organized, not created, at that time, you are correct. But if the idea of the trinity is true, the idea should not have been created at that time, but it was.

As for the everything coming from Greek and Latin text, you are almost correct. You see, I believe in the Book of Mormon also, which was not written in those languages nor by those people. The people in that book lived on the American continent, and not in a deseret, which is indeed a tricky place. If it was only the word of those men, I could definitely understand some skepticism, but it's not. There are others who have testified of God and his Son as well.

Maybe it is time to question the origin of our knowledge. Everything you and I are discussing right now, and i mean everything, was written by men whose credentials are unknown. And i m sure that back then bibliography and references was not first priority. Anyone could just say anything and have followers. So what is your own personal experience that has convinced you of the existance of god? please do not say the bible because it was written by men. If we like and agree with something it is not enough to make it real. For example i consider myself to be a good man but thats probably far from the truth!

First off, I see no reason not to consider yourself a good man. You seem like such a person to me.

As for the origin of my knowledge, it comes first through study, second through prayer, and third through experiences in my life. I have prayed about the ideals we have discussed and have felt the voice of my Father in Heaven confirm to me the truthfulness of these things. I know them to be true with every fiber of my being. As sure as I know that I exist, I know they are true.

But my knowledge comes through my experiences in life. I would not expect everyone to feel the same as I since they have not had the same experiences. Many have had similar experiences and do feel the same way, but not all.

Hope that helps.

 

[mattpegher]

Over the last 1000 years, many men have debated this issue, much more clearly than what I see here. In the end neither logically, philosophically or deductively has anyone been able to prove or disprove the existence of either a diety or afterlife. So if you believe I am glad for you and hope you behave such that you will gain eternal bliss, and if you do not believe I hope you find happiness in this life but I also hope you also behave.

If you firmly believe in something, I mean with every fiber of you core you believe and nothing will sway you from your stand, shut the f*** up.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
Over the last 1000 years, many men have debated this issue, much more clearly than what I see here. In the end neither logically, philosophically or deductively has anyone been able to prove or disprove the existence of either a diety or afterlife. So if you believe I am glad for you and hope you behave such that you will gain eternal bliss, and if you do not believe I hope you find happiness in this life but I also hope you also behave.

If you firmly believe in something, I mean with every fiber of you core you believe and nothing will sway you from your stand, shut the f*** up.

If you don't like what I write, don't read it. It's not my problem. Deal with it.

 

[sourshishke]

Jesus was real,but he wasnt the son of God!!!I believe in the lost city of Atlantis
more which was 9000 years before Christ!!!What everything before didnt matter to GOD?

 

[alejandroAT]

very constructive mattpegher. You are either very young or are really tired of life. Away with you and your absolutism. It has no place in a conversation. This is a conversation and as long as people talk you have no right to shut them up. I have no right to shut engineereyore up because he is firm in his belief and he has no right to shut me up because i don't believe in god. Indeed we have no right to shut YOU up even if you are being rude.

Knowledge doesn't come from reading other people's essays and debates as you state above (Over the last 1000 years, many men have debated this issue, much more clearly than what I see here. In the end neither logically, philosophically or deductively has anyone been able to prove or disprove the existence of either a diety or afterlife.)

It comes through debate, questioning and comprehension. And this is why we have this neverending debate. Because in the end engineereeyore will be enriched by a different point of view and vice versa.

quote:"First off, I see no reason not to consider yourself a good man. You seem like such a person to me. "

Rhetoric question. I was just putting forward an example that just because i like to consider myself a good man it doesnt make me one.

In the same sense, feeling god inside you doesn't prove his existence. People who trully believe in god are very lucky because they have found piece of mind, comfort, and they are never lonely. I on the other hand am doomed to roam this earth alone and in anguish. But the more i need the concept of god to make me feel good, the more i am conveinced that it is a creation of my imagination.

Now, as far as mormons are concerned, the only thing i know is what i've seen on Southpark.

What i can tell though is that the more people move away from the "holy lands" the more they cut religion to fit their own rules and measures. They do not hesitate to disbelieve the visions of "holy" men that live far away. They just beleive more the visions of holy men that are near them. Because this makes them beleive that they are part of it. It is theirs and not some Greeks' or Italians' beliefs. So the "word of god" becomes more and more the "word of man" as time goes by.

 

[DarkKnight69]

Originally posted by: BD2003
Why Jesus, and not Vishnu, Buddha, Zeus, or Ra? Give me a good answer to that, and I might have something to say.

Just FYI, Buddha means inlightened one...

You do not need to worship in buddhism, it is the path to inner peace through bettering yourself.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT

In the same sense, feeling god inside you doesn't prove his existence. People who trully believe in god are very lucky because they have found piece of mind, comfort, and they are never lonely. I on the other hand am doomed to roam this earth alone and in anguish. But the more i need the concept of god to make me feel good, the more i am conveinced that it is a creation of my imagination.

You are correct. Nothing "proves" the existence of God, but then I'm not real interested in proof. I don't find proof to be necessary for a belief in God. Matter of fact, if something is proven, is it really a belief? Wouldn't that make it a fact rather than a belief?

And you're right, I do feel very lucky to have the beliefs I do. I wish more people shared them, but I definitely respect the rights of people to believe what they wish. But the concept of God is not the foundation upon which my happiness rest, but it definitely helps. I find happiness in all parts of life, not just in my religion. Just because you don't believe in God, I would never suspect you to be an unhappy person. Friends and family are a great source of happiness in this life.

Now, as far as mormons are concerned, the only thing i know is what i've seen on Southpark.

LOL! I used to love Southpark. Anyway, the next time you ever decide to do more research on religion, I would recommend looking into what we believe. If for nothing other than just overcoming what Southpark has taught you, I think you might enjoy it.

What i can tell though is that the more people move away from the "holy lands" the more they cut religion to fit their own rules and measures. They do not hesitate to disbelieve the visions of "holy" men that live far away. They just beleive more the visions of holy men that are near them. Because this makes them beleive that they are part of it. It is theirs and not some Greeks' or Italians' beliefs. So the "word of god" becomes more and more the "word of man" as time goes by.

I can understand you feelings, but I assure you that I place no more importance on the Book of Mormon than I do on the Bible. I believe every Prophet in the Bible to be inspired and the word he taught necessary for all of us. On day I do hope to go to that area of the world. Israel, Greece, Italy, all of it. Such a wonderful history and such beautiful country.

 

[HermDogg]

Originally posted by: mattpegher
Over the last 1000 years, many men have debated this issue, much more clearly than what I see here. In the end neither logically, philosophically or deductively has anyone been able to prove or disprove the existence of either a diety or afterlife. So if you believe I am glad for you and hope you behave such that you will gain eternal bliss, and if you do not believe I hope you find happiness in this life but I also hope you also behave.

If you firmly believe in something, I mean with every fiber of you core you believe and nothing will sway you from your stand, shut the f*** up.

Cliffs:

No one truly knows the answers, so for the love of Pasta please don't try and figure it out.

 

[alejandroAT]

quote: "You are correct. Nothing "proves" the existence of God, but then I'm not real interested in proof. I don't find proof to be necessary for a belief in God. Matter of fact, if something is proven, is it really a belief? Wouldn't that make it a fact rather than a belief? "

so you are saying that it is all a metaphor. That faith has nothing to do with god. It is just your own personal way to facilitate your efforts towards wellbeing. In the same sense that imagining a flower can facilitate meditation. It could be anything. Just whatever makes it easier for you.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: DarkKnight69

Originally posted by: BD2003
Why Jesus, and not Vishnu, Buddha, Zeus, or Ra? Give me a good answer to that, and I might have something to say.

Just FYI, Buddha means inlightened one...

You do not need to worship in buddhism, it is the path to inner peace through bettering yourself.

I know, just the most obvious one to mention. I figured someone would say it.

Of all the major "religions", buddhism is one of the few that isnt crashing and burning doctrine wise as new discoveries are made, and education and free thought become more prevalent.

 

[alejandroAT]

WE ARE NOT TRYING TO FIND THE ANSWERS......next time someone wants to say something that is off topic then PLEASE fight the urge.

This topic is not about proving or disporving anything. It is about believers trying to understand unbelievers and vice versa. It is a discussion on what do believers find in religion that sooths them and what do atheists do to achieve the same thing but with means other than religion.

 

[mattpegher]

I have studied all the arguments. I was raised and educated catholic through highschool. I do not adhere to any particular faith but I believe that the basic rules of all apply. In undergraduate I took several courses in the philosophy of religion including the classic arguments. In graduate school, I engaged is several further courses in ethics. And after 40 years on this planet I am a little sick and tired of the venom that spews from the mouth of both sides. I don't care if you believe or not, as long as you treat others with respect.

I have followed this thread for a while now and see nothing constructive in it. I was hoping to see some intelligent debate but have not.

I will say again that I believe that we have two sides each with closed minds on the subject and nothing constructive to say.

 

[mattpegher]

And if you are offended by the "shut the f*** up". I appoligize it was meant for dramatics only.

 

[alejandroAT]

mattpegher,

so you just thought you could contribute with some "intelligence"?

From what you have said you could have spared yourself of "several courses in the philosophy of religion including the classic arguments" by just asking someone that did have 40 years on this planet at the time you graduated. He would have informed you that it is all pointless and then you could have gone ahead and studied something usefull. But i guess you weren't that intelligent back then.

You see you don't really need a course in philosophy and arguments to come to the above conclusion.

hahahahahahahha. Everything is in vein! we just have to cope with it and just have fun. Don't give up , you still have several decades to go.

 

[alejandroAT]

oh no i wasnt offended......i like strong language because it shows passion.....but it is not constructive

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT
quote: "The idea of 3-in-1 was actually invented between 300-400 years after Christ death. I can get you more information on that if you wish. "

Christianity itself was invented 300 years after the birth of Christ. Constantine, being the politician that he was saw that he had no choice and so invented it to please the people. A smart man. It has nothing to do with the Church of Christ that was formed by the apostoles (paul and so on). Do not forget that everything we know about god and christ is taken from latin and greek texts that were translations of the originals. And the originals themselves were also written by people. Deeply religious people that aslo happen to come from a land famous for its hallucinations. The desert is a tricky place my friend. If someone came from the desert saying that god spoke to him and this is what he said i would be giving him a glass of water and then calling the local crazyhouse.

Maybe it is time to question the origin of our knowledge. Everything you and I are discussing right now, and i mean everything, was written by men whose credentials are unknown. And i m sure that back then bibliography and references was not first priority. Anyone could just say anything and have followers. So what is your own personal experience that has convinced you of the existance of god? please do not say the bible because it was written by men. If we like and agree with something it is not enough to make it real. For example i consider myself to be a good man but thats probably far from the truth!

Oh goodness, did you just take like everything out of the DaVinci code adn repeat it? Please, the book has some truth to it, and Constantine did NOT "invent" a religion and while there were issues debated at the Council meetings at that time, it wasn't anything as big as the whole divinity of Christ. It's quite arguable, but you sound very gullible like you believed the whole book word for word.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: alejandroAT

so you are saying that it is all a metaphor. That faith has nothing to do with god. It is just your own personal way to facilitate your efforts towards wellbeing. In the same sense that imagining a flower can facilitate meditation. It could be anything. Just whatever makes it easier for you.

No, I'm simply saying that if you believe in something that is later shown to be true, you no longer have a belief in it, but rather a knowledge of it. Faith has everything to do with God right now because he cannot be proven to exist or not to exist, therefore believing in God is a belief. You can only have a knowledge of God if you receive some form of proof of his existence.

 

[alejandroAT]

quote: "Oh goodness, did you just take like everything out of the DaVinci code adn repeat it? Please, the book has some truth to it, and Constantine did NOT "invent" a religion and while there were issues debated at the Council meetings at that time, it wasn't anything as big as the whole divinity of Christ. It's quite arguable, but you sound very gullible like you believed the whole book word for word."

spare me DLeRium....I am greek and my country is strongly orthodox christian...we also cover 5000 years of history in our educational system.... unlike Americans we do not rely on best sellers to teach us history.

(Europeans did not speak arabic dialects...they relied on the greeks and latins for their information and that is a fact)

 

[alejandroAT]

and yes that is FIVE THOUSAND....not a typo......

as for literature like Browns, well, we didnt have to wait for him. Umberto Eco covered some of the filth in christianity decades before.

 

[mattpegher]

After 4 years of undergraduate, 4 years of med school, 4 years of residency and 10 years of emergency medicine I believe I can spot trouble. My statement is simply a plea for a little less argument and a little more understanding. If you are actually are 68 years old I bow to your experience. And I hope you have spent that time listening not preaching.

 

[alejandroAT]

oh and another question just because you mentioned ole'dan......How do you choose which parts fo the book are real or not?

I can tell for one that the albino guy monk is a far fetcged scenario to make the book more interesting.....but are you suggestiong the brown timetraveled back in the day and left the dead see scrolls in a cave in order to be found?

the new testament is a selective text from books of apostles. Who selected which apostoles were to be included and which not?

 

[alejandroAT]

quote: "
After 4 years of undergraduate, 4 years of med school, 4 years of residency and 10 years of emergency medicine I believe I can spot trouble. My statement is simply a plea for a little less argument and a little more understanding. If you are actually are 68 years old I bow to your experience. And I hope you have spent that time listening not preaching."

i am only preaching as a responce to your preaching. You have to admit your post was slightly pessimistic if not aggressive. I do not question your knowledge so you dont have to list your diplomas. But your argument was such that it was asking for it.