A question for atheists/etc

[KoolAidKid]

Originally posted by: huberm

Also, do you feel it is logical to think that once our body dies, we cease to exist forever?

IMO many embrace the idea of an afterlife for several reasons:

1) They can't bear the thought of disappearing forever.

2) The idea of a utopian afterlife assuages regret about leading a unremarkable life.

3) A person experiences life with themselves as the central character. Essentially, they cannot imagine a world without themselves in it.

 

[pontifex]

i'd say i'm agnostic with heavy leanings towards atheism

i think there is maybe a very small chance there is something out there, but most likely there isn't.

 

[McGyver]

Originally posted by: huberm
As a Christian I have developed a relationship with Jesus and through faith, without a shadow of a doubt, I know He exists and He is Lord.

However, I have a hard time understanding the motive behind not searching for an answer by many. Please don't take this post the wrong way, I am not trying to offend nor convict anyone, I am just curious in knowing your thoughts.

From what I understand, an atheist believes there is no God and our existence is merely a coincidence that happened at some point a long time ago, is this correct? Also, do you feel it is logical to think that once our body dies, we cease to exist forever?

Again, I am not trying to offend anyone. I am just seeking these answers out of curiosity. I would greatly appreciate it if no one flamed another's religion, it would make the discussion go much smoother.

Thanks!

i knew it, you're as uncertain as the agnostics are.

 

[huberm]

Originally posted by: HermDogg
LIke others have mentioned, I'm slightly cheesed at the way you expressed your question. Essentially, you implied that believing in Christianity is the norm, and those of who aren't "with it" are the ones who need to explain. I would argue that it is the Christians who need to explain their belief, if anybody asked. This is the inherent paradox in yelling at people not to preach: the burden of proof is on them. Unfortunately, far too often most of them don't even know why they believe what they do. I've known a few extraordinarily intelligent Christians, but every time it always comes back to faith.

I apologize if I offended anyone by the way I worded the question, I was certainly not trying to.

The responses in this thread have certainly been eye opening and have helped me understand the atheist viewpoint more, thank you.

Shortly before/after we die I feel everyone will know what beliefs are correct. If someone's ideals are wrong, would it be reasonable to conclude that believing the wrong thing your whole life could possibly lead to eternal/infinite consequence?

Again, I am not trying to offend anyone, I am just seeking the viewpoints of everyone.

Thanks!

 

[zerocool1]

Originally posted by: 6shiw1


To sum it up: I think you either choose to believe, or choose not to believe. Neither choice can be proven false or true. For this reason I've always thought people pushing their religion were rather ignorant.

qft
I'd consider myself spiritual rather than religious. I don't like the structure that religion provides. It feels far too restricting. Many other doctrines offer good ideas, its just a matter of understanding those good ideas and incorporating it into my own life. Now that's the challenge.

 

[ScottyB]

I don't think I have ever really believed. When I was young I went to church and never belived the stories they told. I was under the impression that I didn't have to believe all the stories, just that Jesus was God. I never really was confortable with this one true god business. Most of the time I "believed" in God because I was in fear of the mythical authority figure that could punish me for non-belief. Once I overcame that fear I found peace.

 

[railer]

I got dragged to church as a kid. Was beaten over the head with "in god we trust" and everything else religious my entire life...just like any other american. Never really questioned anything...went through life like a sheep....if someone asked me if i believed in god i would have said "sure", tho I never practiced religion in any way whatsoever (like most americans).

I guess what pushed me to think about religion was probably 9/11. It was then that I really looked around at other peoples point of view. It was then that I realzied that only about 20% or so of the worlds population was christaian; the rest were something else. It was then that I realzed that if I had been born in Pakistan, or Iran, I would have been exposed to a completely different set of religious ideas, and I would have grown up a muslim, or a hindu, or whatever...instead of christian. It was at that point that I laughed out loud, realized how silly organized religion actually was, and moved on to more important things in my life.

 

[SophalotJack]

In response to the OP. I don't believe in hayzeus because there are billions of people who have thousands of different religions and they are ALL doing just fine. Hinduism, Budhism and the Muslim religions have been around for thousands of years before jesus. They also shadow (in the sense of sheer numbers) christianity in the # of believers.

There is nothing that jesus did or went through that many dieties of Hinduism have gone through as well (suffering, sacrifice, love for all... etc.)

After I was privlidged enough to have a circle of friends from extremely different backgrounds, I realized that religion is an opiate that eases the mind of it's believers of uncertaintities in the future.

That's why I say live and let live. Enjoy Jesus... I'll enjoy my family.

 

[sunase]

>believing the wrong thing your whole life could possibly lead to eternal/infinite consequence?

It would be amusing if someone approached avoiding this in a reasonable manner. There are very many religions, all with pretty much no proof. Therefore you'd have to research each of them and then try to get your bases covered with as many religions as possible before dying.

Unfortunately, you'd probably have to avoid Christianity because they don't allow belief in gods other than their own. Only being allowed one religion would lower your odds of getting the correct one dramatically.

 

[KoolAidKid]

Originally posted by: huberm
Shortly before/after we die I feel everyone will know what beliefs are correct. If someone's ideals are wrong, would it be reasonable to conclude that believing the wrong thing your whole life could possibly lead to eternal/infinite consequence?

I have no idea why you would believe that everyone suddenly gains insight at the end of their lives. If this were true, and if there are "wrong" and "correct" ideas, then you would see many conversions to a particular faith. If you have any evidence that Buddhists are suddenly converting to Christianity at the end of their lives, I would love to see it.

For your own self-exploration, do this exercise: imagine yourself on your deathbed. After saying some suitably melodramatic thing to your family you die. Your thoughts end, you don't go to "a better place". You become a hunk of rotting meat and your consciousness is eliminated.

Does this idea scare you? If so, don't you think that this fear might at least partially motivate your belief in the afterlife?

 

[ForumMaster]

the question should be what makes you believe in god and jesus? science has proved evolution. if you don't believe in that, well that's your problem. if evolution is true as science has proven, then god didn't create us. it's that simple. anyway, what makes you believe in god and jesus so much? i believe that it is possible that at some point, there was a guy named jesus who did some of the things jesus did. do i believe that this jesus dude walked on water? nope. but he might have existed. to reiterate, i don't believe in god. yes i am an atheist from judism. not from christianity. i don't believe in any god what so ever.

 

[yhelothar]

No point in trying to argue against a religious person with logic. Their convictions were never induced with logic to begin with, so using logic would be like speaking a whole nother language. :roll:

 

[loic2003]

Originally posted by: huberm
As a Christian I have developed a relationship with Jesus and through faith, without a shadow of a doubt, I know He exists and He is Lord.

However, I have a hard time understanding the motive behind not searching for an answer by many. Please don't take this post the wrong way, I am not trying to offend nor convict anyone, I am just curious in knowing your thoughts.

From what I understand, an atheist believes there is no God and our existence is merely a coincidence that happened at some point a long time ago, is this correct? Also, do you feel it is logical to think that once our body dies, we cease to exist forever?

Again, I am not trying to offend anyone. I am just seeking these answers out of curiosity. I would greatly appreciate it if no one flamed another's religion, it would make the discussion go much smoother.

Thanks!

Ask yourself if you believe in your god because of something you've genuinely seen or felt (that couldn't be explained medically), or whether you have been indoctrinated with your religion by your family since birth. Whilst it is interesting to read up of various religions: the greek gods, the roman gods, egyptology, norse gods, the pagans and christianity, these things really should be confined to history books and museums.

If you spoke to an aztec they would be completely convinced that their gods were the true gods. They would be sure that it was imperative that a sacrifice (even a human sacrifice) must be made at dusk to their sun god in order for the sun to come up the next day. We of course look at this as archaic: the stuff of ancients who didn't know better.

I see christianity/islam in the same light. It's an interesting read; how it was used to control and manipulate the population, and, more interestingly, that jesus may have gotten his entire idealology from buddhism, but I strongly feel it's important to be a free thinker at this age and to no longer follow these religions. I see people who still believe in the same way as you would look at a 20 year old who still belives in santa....

 

[LcarsSystem]

Originally posted by: huberm

Originally posted by: HermDogg
LIke others have mentioned, I'm slightly cheesed at the way you expressed your question. Essentially, you implied that believing in Christianity is the norm, and those of who aren't "with it" are the ones who need to explain. I would argue that it is the Christians who need to explain their belief, if anybody asked. This is the inherent paradox in yelling at people not to preach: the burden of proof is on them. Unfortunately, far too often most of them don't even know why they believe what they do. I've known a few extraordinarily intelligent Christians, but every time it always comes back to faith.

I apologize if I offended anyone by the way I worded the question, I was certainly not trying to.

The responses in this thread have certainly been eye opening and have helped me understand the atheist viewpoint more, thank you.

Shortly before/after we die I feel everyone will know what beliefs are correct. If someone's ideals are wrong, would it be reasonable to conclude that believing the wrong thing your whole life could possibly lead to eternal/infinite consequence?

Again, I am not trying to offend anyone, I am just seeking the viewpoints of everyone.

Thanks!

There are imo two problems with this assertion.

Any God willing to damn you for not believing either has a low self-esteem, or is not worthy of praise at all. If he is indeed all knowing he would know how you came to the conclusions you believed in and obviously if he was a true God he would forgive. If there is a God it's my belief that it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you treat others with kindness and live your life through reason.

 

[6StringSamurai]

See my sig for my explanation.

 

[Jeff7]

Why is that concept so difficult? Jesus is the son of God. Atheists do not believe that God exists. That which does not exist cannot have offspring. Simple.


I guess this relationship with Jesus is a hell of a long-distance relationship. Really weird one too. Never met in person, and you never get to see him. Can't even just chat with him over coffee.

From what I understand, an atheist believes there is no God and our existence is merely a coincidence that happened at some point a long time ago, is this correct?

Correct. As Carl Sagan said, "we are star stuff." Supernovas and other such phenomena are largely responsible for producing the very heavy elements, while lighter ones, such as helium or oxygen, can be produced in the center of main-sequence stars.
Second, to clear something else up, it's not entirely random either, in the sense that most people envision when they say "random." That old analogy for life arising out of nonliving components, that it's like a tornado making a 747 - that's pure BS. That is going from chaos to order in an instant. Going from nonlife to life, at least on this planet, took billions of years. The Big Bang was about 14 billion years ago. Life, in simple bacterial form, first showed up sometime around 2-3 billion years ago. Hardly just *blink* and there it was. It was a long time after that until complex multicelluar organisms became common.

It's all very slow progression. What guides it? Good old natural selection - that which survives can reproduce. That which has mutations which happen to improve chances of survival can reproduce more. Nature doesn't create masterful, perfect, orderly things. It does what works. It doesn't need to work "well," it just needs to work "well enough."
Humans have numerous "features" which, from an engineering standpoint, are stupid. Odd feet, which have remnants of an opposable thumb (our big toes), which are prone to pain from extended use. A spinal column that just doesn't quite seem entirely up to the challenge of supporting gravity compressing it all the time, versus ancestors which would have had their spine positioned horizontally, from walking on all fours. Some organs have backups, some don't. Lungs? One duplicate, but the two are connected. If one is breached, you're screwed. Kidneys? You can live with one working, but it takes several hours or perhaps days to die if they'd both fail. Heart? Very mission-critical, you'd think it'd have some kind of backup. Nope. Let's see, other problems...well, anything that goes wrong with aging. Simply put, these bodies weren't built to last. They were "built" for one purpose, ultimately - survive long enough to reproduce. Once the genes are passed on and the kids have a decent chance of surviving, that's all you really were supposed to do, from an evolutionary standpoint. Long life never served any purpose in our development, or at least not useful enough to warrant the passing of genes to promote longevity.

My point in all that is, if we were designed, it's a pretty damn lousy job. Rube-Goldberg Device is what comes to mind. It's a totally screwy design, but hey, it works well enough to reproduce, so go with it!

Also, do you feel it is logical to think that once our body dies, we cease to exist forever?

Yes, perfectly. The collection of thoughts that is "me" has only existed since my brain first came online, so to speak, at some point in the womb. It was only a basic bit of programming then, sort of a BIOS, but ready to learn, and produce a personality. The persona that is "me" will cease to exist when I die. That's simple logic right there - "me" is harbored in the many neurons in my brain. When my body is dead, the brain will follow suit. If it can't process any incoming information, nor produce any kind of thoughts in response, well, consciousness has ceased, and it will not restart, especially after decay sets in. [Star]dust to dust.

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: huberm
As a Christian I have developed a relationship with Jesus and through faith, without a shadow of a doubt, I know He exists and He is Lord.

However, I have a hard time understanding the motive behind not searching for an answer by many. Please don't take this post the wrong way, I am not trying to offend nor convict anyone, I am just curious in knowing your thoughts.

From what I understand, an atheist believes there is no God and our existence is merely a coincidence that happened at some point a long time ago, is this correct? Also, do you feel it is logical to think that once our body dies, we cease to exist forever?

Again, I am not trying to offend anyone. I am just seeking these answers out of curiosity. I would greatly appreciate it if no one flamed another's religion, it would make the discussion go much smoother.

Thanks!

You do not know that God exists in the same way that people ordinarily speak about these things. I would say that you have a glorified hunch, without trying to be mean. Your "knowledge" cannot be proven, and is disputed by the majority of the world: not just atheists and agnostics, but people of other religions. Many of them "know" just as strongly that their way is right.

Not to be facetious, but celebrity stalkers develop "relationships" with their victims. People hallucinate and have other delusions as well.

It is not correct to assume that an atheist has not sought religious answers; the answer of an atheist is that there is no god.

I am indifferent to religion; I would never persecute someone for their beliefs as long as they don't harm others, but I cannot believe in something without any evidence at all. As someone on the outside, it seems to me that atheism is at least as logically valid as Christianity and other major religions. The reason for this is that in the absence of any sort of proof or evidence, it does not make as much sense to believe in a thing as to disbelieve.

 

[artikk]

The simple concept that both atheists and christians should realize is that god cannot be proven or disproven through their arguments or scientific experiments. The latter part accounts why most atheists do not believe in God. Faith is more based on pure belief than on any concrete observation or methodical experimentation. One will never know the true answer to the question whether God exists or not and I think of both parties as being completely irrelevant at this point. Since no one can prove without a shadow of a doubt their side of the argument, no one should be able to claim their stand on the issue. It's an irrelevant issue that cannot be proven in any case. Therefore, people, stop trying to persuade someone where persuasion is pointless.

 

[madworm]

Let's all take the Red Pill and follow the white rabbit...

 

[TallBill]

There might be a man named Jesus, but when I die I'm going into a hole in the ground, and thats it. Simple as that.

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: artikk
The simple concept that both atheists and christians should realize is that god cannot be proven or disproven through their arguments or scientific experiments. The latter part accounts why most atheists do not believe in God. Faith is more based on pure belief than on any concrete observation or methodical experimentation. One will never know the true answer to the question whether God exists or not and I think of both parties as being completely irrelevant at this point. Since no one can prove without a shadow of a doubt their side of the argument, no one should be able to claim their stand on the issue. It's an irrelevant issue that cannot be proven in any case. Therefore, people, stop trying to persuade someone where persuasion is pointless.

I have never met an atheist that attempted to disprove the existence of a god. The ones I've known would probably consider it on the order of disproving the existence of unicorns. Finding fault with the Bible, etc. does not count as a disproof, although it seems to be a common pastime on ATOT.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: 6000SUX

Originally posted by: artikk
The simple concept that both atheists and christians should realize is that god cannot be proven or disproven through their arguments or scientific experiments. The latter part accounts why most atheists do not believe in God. Faith is more based on pure belief than on any concrete observation or methodical experimentation. One will never know the true answer to the question whether God exists or not and I think of both parties as being completely irrelevant at this point. Since no one can prove without a shadow of a doubt their side of the argument, no one should be able to claim their stand on the issue. It's an irrelevant issue that cannot be proven in any case. Therefore, people, stop trying to persuade someone where persuasion is pointless.

I have never met an atheist that attempted to disprove the existence of a god. The ones I've known would probably consider it on the order of disproving the existence of unicorns. Finding fault with the Bible, etc. does not count as a disproof, although it seems to be a common pastime on ATOT.

It's a common pastime because finding fault with the Bible is like shotting ducks in a barrel with a shotgun. It's easy, yet still seems to amuse people.
Though come to think of it, shooting ducks in a barrel is probably not amusing......well, at least not for everyone. Like watching prime time TV perhaps? It's easy, and utterly mindless, yet lots of people still do it anyway.

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

My point in all that is, if we were designed, it's a pretty damn lousy job. Rube-Goldberg Device is what comes to mind. It's a totally screwy design, but hey, it works well enough to reproduce, so go with it!

You are correct, out human bodies were not designed for this. They were designed for the garden of eden, where we could haved lived for forever in harmony with God. That is why death is such a difficult concept for us, we were never supposed to die.

 

[Wag]

I'm Jewish.

 

[MiniDoom]

Originally posted by: Wag
I'm Jewish.

You?re going to hell.