A question for the democrats on this board

[digitalsm]

Bush tried to protect US steel workers, by imposing a tariff, just like hes tried to protect the lumberers by similar tariffs.

The democrats have pounced on this and have called it pandering to get votes. They've called it protectionist measures. They have said he shouldn't use protectionist measures.

Now they are saying he isnt doing enough to protect american workers. And are calling for protectionist measures.

So my question, Which is it?

Seems to me the the democrats as a party flip flop on issues when it suits their needs, and their needs are getting votes, so they exaggerating the long standing trend of outsourcing.

 

[SuperTool]

Bush flip-flopped on that, not Kerry. Live with it.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Bush flip-flopped on that, not Kerry. Live with it.

Bush didnt flip flop on it. It was ruled illegal by the WTO, it was either drop the steel tariffs or suffer a severe trade war with the EU. On the issue of soft wood tariffs, the US won its appeal to the WTO and will likely win the case when all is said and done. Tariffs against Canadian softwood will likely stay.

Uh, I wasnt singling out Kerry. The democrats as a whole have flip flopped over the issue of protectionist measures. If you cant see the democrats flip flopping on protectionist measures, you are just a sheep. They have clearly said Bush should NOT use protectionist measures in the past. And now they are decrying him for not using more protectionist measures. As for coming up with a retort to this saying the tariffs were illegal under our agreements with the WTO, so are what the democrats have said they want...

 

[Myth465]

i think the problem in this country is people like to simplify issues. no one is really talking about protectism. right now the bill in the senate that is sponsered by dems wants the following.


notice to employees & full disclosure (why, when, where, what, how) when a company is moving its labor over seas (6 months i think)
and that companies cant force employees to retrain thier replacements by keeping thier severance pay.
i also think it removes the tax breaks companies get from outsourcing but that last one may be wrong.

the issue for most dems i believe is that bush is ignoring the issue in thier and my opinion.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: Myth465
i think the problem in this country is people like to simplify issues. no one is really talking about protectism. right now the bill in the senate that is sponsered by dems wants the following.


notice to employees & full disclosure (why, when, where, what, how) when a company is moving its labor over seas (6 months i think)
and that companies cant force employees to retrain thier replacements by keeping thier severance pay.
i also think it removes the tax breaks companies get from outsourcing but that last one may be wrong.

the issue for most dems i believe is that bush is ignoring the issue in thier and my opinion.

What issue? Its statistically insignificant, and the trend has been here and at much the same pace since the '80s. Its a non issue being overstated by the dems in my opinion. I just find it a bit odd that the democrats bashed Bush for implmenting protectionist measures, now they are calling for more and bashing him because he hasn't had more. Its hypocritical at best, stupid at worst. Anyone that knows anything about economics knows protectionist measures do not work. The dems were against them when its suited their needs, and now they are for them because it suits their needs in overstating overseas outsourcing.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: Myth465
i think the problem in this country is people like to simplify issues. no one is really talking about protectism. right now the bill in the senate that is sponsered by dems wants the following.


notice to employees & full disclosure (why, when, where, what, how) when a company is moving its labor over seas (6 months i think)
and that companies cant force employees to retrain thier replacements by keeping thier severance pay.
i also think it removes the tax breaks companies get from outsourcing but that last one may be wrong.

the issue for most dems i believe is that bush is ignoring the issue in thier and my opinion.

IIRC it doesnt remove tax breaks, I believe it proposes a 10% tax break for companies that do not out source overseas, which would be ruled ILLEGAL by the WTO if it were to pass. The democrats right now are for repealing NAFTA, which is ludicris at best. They are truely trying to pander for votes, from those that are not educated. Repealing NAFTA is ludicris because the cost of living in the US would skyrocket, resulting in a negative impact on job creation, not positive. It would also torpedo our economy, in the short term, and long term.

 

[Myth465]

say what you want but outsourcing is an issue to me at least. soon there will be no / few engineers or software coders in the US. i changed my major from IT cause it sucks getting out of college and working at Best Buy which is what some IT people were doing. you dont think other students will do the same. perhaps it is being played for politics this year, but it is an issue. If people cant get paid for something after years of college they wont do it (teachers). If all / most / half of our engineering, software coding, and manufacturing is done overseas what does that do to the USA.

Its not an idea of competeing cause you cant compete with 5% - 10% which is what indian coders make. $4000 compared to $40,000 to $80,000. One outsorcing company said the software even scores higher on the rating scale.

Only some dems / liberals are for repealing Nafta (Kuchinch, (Sharpton i think), Nader for sure) (we dont all agree). Kerry says he would reniegogiate but thats BS for the most part. Many / Most voted for natfa and one on a talk show said a dem. senator said he and they want dialouge to at least flow. He wants thinks to be examined because when other trade deals come up we have to know how past / current ones affect / affected us. We dont even know how many jobs are being lost (he and industry heads have both said that). No one is keeping track and thats a shame. No one is even tracking how the problem / issue is affecting the US economy

Anyway Lou Dobbs talks about this daily on his show on CNN

 

[Myth465]

also to kill the speculation here you go

Lawmakers Introduce Anti-Outsourcing Bill
By Shelley Solheim
March 5, 2004


Lawmakers introduced a bill in Congress Thursday aimed to deter U.S. companies from outsourcing jobs overseas.

The Defending American Jobs Act of 2004, sponsored by more than 50 legislators, proposes to cut federal funding from companies that lay off workers at higher rates in the U.S. than abroad. The legislation would also require companies that apply for federal grants and loans to declare the salaries of employees in the U.S. and abroad, said Joel Barkin, spokesman for Rep. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., the bill's principle sponsor.

"Millions of jobs in manufacturing and technology are shipped overseas to countries where companies can pay employees far less money," said Barkin. "There are a number of companies that have continued to get federal funding while at the same time outsourcing jobs overseas."

Barkin pointed to Motorola as an example of one such company: "Motorola since 2001 has laid off 43,000 workers and invested $3.4 billion into China while receiving 190 million" in federal funding.

Motorola spokeswoman Margot Brown responded in a statement, "Today, nearly half of our global workforce and revenues come from the USA--our home market. Although economic trends and market realities have shifted the balance over the years, the ? U.S. workforce are powerful engines of innovation for Motorola, and we are committed to working with government agencies and other technology leaders to keep it that way."

The bill was referred to the Government Reform Committee on Thursday.

 

[Myth465]

now should motorola continue to be paid to ship jobs to china, doesnt make much sense to me
its so sad that our unemployment "helpers" work in india. they tell the unemployed in some states where to go to get thier checks. seems quite ironic

 

[digitalsm]

If all / most / half of our engineering, software coding, and manufacturing is done overseas what does that do to the USA.

Talk about fear mongering. The USA still leads the world in R&D. Over 50% of it is done in the USA and that isnt changing, nor is the trend downward. As for programming and engineering, they do not equal IT. The number of programming and engineering jobs outsourced are LOW, they are statistically insignificant. They are however lumped in with call center IT'ish jobs that were outsourced, even those are statistically insignificant. Right now its a fraction of 1%.

As for manufacturing. The US leads in manfucatured goods. Goods production in the US was near an all time high in 2003. Its called, overstatement by the democrats. Sure SOME manfacturing is gone in the US, namely textiles, but the US is still the leader in manfactured goods. Is employment down in manufacturing? Yes, its called advancement in technologies, and record productivity. Its sorta like the industrial revolution, except its the technological revolution. People made things by hand. Then along came the industrial revolution, and machines. It required less people because of the machines. Now today, technology allows machines to do most of the jobs humans do requiring even less employees, heck machines can do jobs humans can't. Whats next ban machines? Ban new technology because it could cause lost jobs? Ban future R&B because of the same reason? Etc etc?

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

So my question, Which is it?

It's always going to be the opposite of what he is doing. You don't expect them to actually agree with what the President is doing, do you? That would break the illusioin that there's a huge difference between the two parties.

 

[Myth465]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

If all / most / half of our engineering, software coding, and manufacturing is done overseas what does that do to the USA.

Talk about fear mongering. The USA still leads the world in R&D. Over 50% of it is done in the USA and that isnt changing, nor is the trend downward. As for programming and engineering, they do not equal IT. The number of programming and engineering jobs outsourced are LOW, they are statistically insignificant. They are however lumped in with call center IT'ish jobs that were outsourced, even those are statistically insignificant. Right now its a fraction of 1%.

As for manufacturing. The US leads in manfucatured goods. Goods production in the US was at an all time high in 2003. Its called, overstatement by the democrats. Sure SOME manfacturing is gone in the US, namely textiles, but the US is still the leader in manfactured goods. Is employment down in manufacturing? Yes, its called advancement in technologies, and record productivity. Its sorta like the industrial revolution. People made things by hand. Then along came the industrial revolution, and machines. It required less people because of the machines. Now today, machines can do the jobs humans did in the 70's and 80s, requiring even less humans.

what fear mongering. who fears what. im simply stating what i think and what i have seen. how can you say things arent changing how do you know. technology has played a part but, there are examples of many companies simply being undercut by china because thier production costs are less due to labor. i think it is a problem that (if unchecked) will come back to bit us and u dont. i guess we will see in a few years.

Also the key word in that sentence was IF. Big business is about profits. If thier are more incentive for them to code elsewhere they will. put aside your (i will put aside mines also) parisan politics and simply discuss the issue. there are 2 sides. here is an article (googled) simply read the policy implications that they figure may play a part in the equation.

http://www.ieeeusa.org/committees/CWPC/Dec03Agenda/outsourcing.pdf
of course it is still being researched and this is an intro to the later article but, dont you think the IEEE at least raises a few valid points.

 

[Myth465]

even i raised the national security one on another board before reading the article so .....
look at the options number 1 is happening right now so i think everyone should quite all the politicing and work on #1

 

[digitalsm]

think it is a problem that (if unchecked) will come back to bit us and u dont. i guess we will see in a few years.

Its been left unchecked for close to 3 decades now. So far its still statistically insignificant, and overstated. The actual numbers don't jive with what is being said.

 

[Myth465]

i would argue that it hasnt been a serious problem for those decades but, i have only known about it for 2 years so .....
did you even click the link. you think those guys dont have any idea what they are talking about either. i guess on that note we will just have to wait and see anyway to answer your question a bit here is what a dem says about outsourcing. its still kinda off topic but .....

"Tax incentives for outsourcing in current law are especially disturbing. Companies can fully deduct many costs in moving jobs overseas as business expenses, from the cost of establishing new facilities in a foreign country to the cost of paying the foreign workers. There is no reason to have U.S. taxpayers subsidize business decisions that harm American workers. In many respects, the tax code of today gives an unacceptable preference to corporate dollars earned from foreign operations over dollars earned from domestic operations. The reverse should be true. Corporate tax laws should be modified to increase the cost of exporting jobs and decrease the cost of maintaining jobs in America."

by Senator Edward M. Kennedy


More by Kennedy:

Third, we must do more to prevent irresponsible corporate behavior and make companies more accountable to both their communities and their workers. In recent years, we have seen a disturbing increase in corporate conduct that focuses exclusively on increasing short-term profits, and ignores the long-term impact on workers, on environment, and on national values. Many thoughtful proposals have been offered to deter corporate misbehavior."


-------------------

not everyone is into protectism. some just wanna make things better for companies here

 

[digitalsm]

technology has played a part but, there are examples of many companies simply being undercut by china because thier production costs are less due to labor.

The numbers Im refering to about near record goods production, doesnt count US companies manufacturing goods in china. The US is still the leader in manufacture goods. It still has a quite healthy, actually the worlds stronger/largest manufacturing base. Thats in the US. Techonology is the reason why manufacturing jobs are being shed, in large numbers. Outsourcing is playing a minor role, the sole exception is textiles. And lastly the number of jobs outsourced is far less than the number of jobs shed.

 

[Myth465]

no companies are being undercut by chinese companies. not US companies from china

"A large number of North Carolina's economic woes related to manufacturing can be summed up in one word: China. China is engaging in deceptive trade practices and let's call it what it is - cheating. Besides illegally transshipping textiles into the U.S. market, China has been undervaluing its currency so it can undercut U.S. manufacturers by artificially lowering the cost of Chinese goods - making it impossible for U.S. manufacturers to compete. It's time to hold China accountable for this deception."

http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/SchumerWebsite/pressroom/press_releases/PR01968.html

still, but the future ......
just have to bookmark this thread to read i told you so or. to remind you to type that to me.
making it impossible for U.S. manufacturers to compete - free trade lol . granted some of these facts have quoted deomcrats so ..


?We are bleeding manufacturing jobs in America today, and everyone knows China's manipulation of its currency is a big reason why,? Lieberman said. ?But in response to this economic emergency, George W. Bush hasn't even called information, let alone 911. It?s time for action. That's why we need to push the Bush Administration to negotiate an end to the undervaluation--and file suit in international trade court if those talks should fail.?

Since March 2001, the US manufacturing sector has lost approximately 2.6 million jobs, accounting for nearly 90 percent of the total US jobs lost despite the fact that manufacturing employment is less than 14 percent of the US workforce. The manufacturing sector has lost jobs for 36 straight months.

 

[digitalsm]

Senator Edward M. Kennedy

The same Edwards Kennedy that has fleeced the American tax payer out of $15billion, to fund a underground road system in Boston. The Chunnel was built for around ~$1billion and it was 100 times more difficult from and engineering standpoint.

Edwards Kennedy is a blow hard. What the dems want might protect more jobs, but would cause the cost of living to skyrocket. Not only that it would punish legit international companies.

 

[Myth465]

edited prior post.
perhaps, but im not familar with the Chunnel. but thats besides the point

what would increase the cost of living. leveling the playing field with china (Yen (or what ever its called) Situation) would of course but, isnt it the right thing to do. i mean all they seem to want is free trade

how would restructuring tax codes to help businesses hurt cost of living.

The yuan has been pegged to the US dollar since 1994. Given China's enormous growth over that time frame, many economists believe the yuan may be undervalued by at least 15% and other experts say that number could be as high as 40%. The practical impact of China intentionally lowering its currency's value is to make its goods and services cheap internationally. This means that when Chinese manufacturers export a product, they effectively receive a 15% to 40% subsidy on their exports, providing them with a nearly insurmountable advantage over US producers.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: Myth465
no companies are being undercut by chinese companies. not US companies from china

"A large number of North Carolina's economic woes related to manufacturing can be summed up in one word: China. China is engaging in deceptive trade practices and let's call it what it is - cheating. Besides illegally transshipping textiles into the U.S. market, China has been undervaluing its currency so it can undercut U.S. manufacturers by artificially lowering the cost of Chinese goods - making it impossible for U.S. manufacturers to compete. It's time to hold China accountable for this deception."

http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/SchumerWebsite/pressroom/press_releases/PR01968.html

still, but the future ......
just have to bookmark this thread to read i told you so or. to remind you to type that to me.
making it impossible for U.S. manufacturers to compete - free trade lol . granted some of these facts have quoted deomcrats so ..


?We are bleeding manufacturing jobs in America today, and everyone knows China's manipulation of its currency is a big reason why,? Lieberman said. ?But in response to this economic emergency, George W. Bush hasn't even called information, let alone 911. It?s time for action. That's why we need to push the Bush Administration to negotiate an end to the undervaluation--and file suit in international trade court if those talks should fail.?

Since March 2001, the US manufacturing sector has lost approximately 2.6 million jobs, accounting for nearly 90 percent of the total US jobs lost despite the fact that manufacturing employment is less than 14 percent of the US workforce. The manufacturing sector has lost jobs for 36 straight months.

Like I said, the US leads in manufacture goods. And was at a near record high for goods production in 2003. What you give is the exception, not the rule. And yes the manfuacturing industry has lost jobs, for the last three years, but like i said, its still maintained near record output levels. And as I stated before these output levels dont include goods manufactured by US companies outside the US.

Lets see here

1. The US leads in good production, at near record highs, even with 14% less employees
2. The number if manufacturing jobs outsourced are not even close to the number of manufacturing jobs shed

Oh yes, the state of US manufacturing is poor and outsourcing to China is to blame

 

[Myth465]

i think you may be right. im blending topics.

1. is outsourcing middle class jobs.
2. is manufactering and trade fairness / protectionism / free trade / all in between.
3. im not talking about companies outside of the US. the reference was to chinese companies

my short answer is neither. dems arent proposing tariffs from what i can see / read.
they seem to be proposing fixin the Currency problem SENATORS ANNOUNCE BIPARTISAN EFFORT TO FORCE CHINA TO STOP CURRENCY MANIPULATION (both wanna do / did that), and examining and researching the outsourcing problem as well as making it a policy for companies to disclose thier intentions.

next time i will try to stay on topic, but thanks i learned somethign
http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/SchumerWebsite/pressroom/press_releases/PR01968.html

so its not really what the pres is doing its more how / what approach he is taking
i still think outsourcing is a problem though

 

[arsbanned]

Bush didnt flip flop on it. It was ruled illegal by the WTO,

Since when does that mean anything to the Bush adminitration. They seem more than willing to go against
International will on a range of issues. Why should this be any different?

 

[conjur]

Bush should have been listening to the ITC a bit more. He's rejected their recommendations several times on protecting domestic industry from cheaper-than-cost items from China.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

technology has played a part but, there are examples of many companies simply being undercut by china because thier production costs are less due to labor.

The numbers Im refering to about near record goods production, doesnt count US companies manufacturing goods in china. The US is still the leader in manufacture goods. It still has a quite healthy, actually the worlds stronger/largest manufacturing base. Thats in the US. Techonology is the reason why manufacturing jobs are being shed, in large numbers. Outsourcing is playing a minor role, the sole exception is textiles. And lastly the number of jobs outsourced is far less than the number of jobs shed.

Complete 110% utterly spewed garbage drivel

CAD & Co have trained you well though.