A question to atheists.

[alpineranger]

Perhaps the problem is that some of the people who claim they are atheists are agnostics?

 

[leingod86]

EDIT: Just read that the OP is taking a break. Oh well, the following post is purely for fun then.

To continue this argument we must define "belief".

The context that Atreus21 is using the word is similar to: The act of accepting something as true.

The context of the response: The act of accepting something as true without proof/evidence.

This is the the crux of the debate. Everyone believes in something in the context of Atreus21's meaning. This is necessary to function. I believe my car will start when I turn the key. I believe I will inhale oxygen when I breathe. I believe gravity will keep me from flying into the abyss of space.

The difference between religious belief and scientific belief is that we can perceive this physical, therefore we can accept it. To not accept it when make it impossible to function as physical beings. The metaphysical is unperceivable, therefore it is impossible to use our "mind" to analyze it. From a purely objective standpoint, since we must use our senses and basic logic to function, we must rely on them (or believe in them by Atreus21's definition). They have earned our trust by proving to be reliable for daily use. The concept of "god" has no foundation in these senses. It is based off of a "feeling", which is not objective or reliable.

The primary difference between an Atheist and a Theist is that an Atheist's "belief" has a foundation in reality, a theist's does not. We can debate philosophy on whether "reality" is actually real and what not, but that path leads down one of two paths. Either we can agree with Descartes (I think therefore I am) or we can resolve that nothing is real and cease to be functional human beings.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Christ, what science is is to the best of our knowledge, if it is wrong it just changes, it takes what was wrong into account and proceeds STILL to the best of our knowledge.

It's ALWAYS to the best of our knowledge.

Naturally, because of the scientific method which aim to find the truth, it will never be perfect, the day it is is the day we know everything.

Science does not require a belief in it to work, period.

 

[senseamp]

"God" is just a placeholder for truth. A lot of things were attributed to "God" before we found out reasonable explanations for them.
Notice how God seems to be moving further and further away from reality to a far away abstraction. First gods were used to explain everything, war, disease, weather, droughts, lightning, planets, etc. Then slowly all that was replaced with scientific explanations. As knowledge approaches infinity, God approaches zero.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

For what it is worth, a broadly accepted definition of "knowledge" in philosophy is "justified, true belief."

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
I will end on this also....

Gravity is not believed to but known to exist. The varying degree of accuracy WRT the amount of gravity can be argued but the statement in and of itself cannot.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512

It's just a belief that pulls you towards earth. :disgust:

 

[yours truly]

Originally posted by: bl4ckfl4g

Originally posted by: Atreus21
But it's not enough to simply say what does not exist.

Actually for me that is enough. I don't believe in god and he doesn't exist.

its not, you dont believe in god, it is, does god believe in you..

 

[ZzZGuy]

Might as well through my two cents into the fray.

Religion and god are two totally different things in my view.


God can neither be proven or disproven at the present time (no ones knows what the future holds). Ones firm belief that there is a god is just as valid as another's firm belief that there is no god, and both are equally foolish.

When there is no knowledge of something then it is foolish to say with certainty "it is this but not that"

Not even Richard Dawikins (author of The God Delusion) believes there is no god, just that it is unlikely.


Religion on the others hand, that is a very real thing based in the realm of what we consider reality.

In all my thinking and reading on religion I have come to one very simple conclusion, I have to take some guys word for it that what he is saying is real.

I do not have unconditional faith in man.
I have faith that my long time friends will warn me if if there is a black widow in my shoe if they are aware of it for example (assuming they remember to tell me...). First I know the person very well and they have earned and not abused my trust in the past, second is that I know that black widows exist and they have gotten into shoes in the past. I would however be skeptical if they actually said this to me as there are no black widows in Newfoundland (Canada) but the risk will warrant me taking them seriously until proven wrong.

This is the extent I have faith in man, and some total stranger telling me things that someone else told him (in a chain of X telling X over many generations sometimes) that have no facts to back them up and include unbelievable things does not have my faith. Even when this comes from one of my religious friends who I have faith in (explained above) will not convince me because he does not have any reasoning I find believable. If he told me that the blood on the cloth that supposedly is covered in Christs blood has been shown through DNA (or whatever the proper term would be, I'm no expert on this) to NOT have a father (virgin birth and all) I would have to view his evidence, see what more qualified people say about it (once again I am not expert, I can only trust that some of those who are experts are as skeptical as I am). If it is shown to be true beyond a doubt I will start going to church every Sunday.

Personal experience is just that, personal. It does not apply to others as others have not experienced what you have and you can not prove to anyone that you where not hallucinating.

Just because something has been said for a very long time does not make it any more true.

Just because it sounds like a really good idea doesn't make it any more true.


I believe (yes, I said believe, because I know little of the various religions. All I know is that no believable -for me- argument has ever been presented that I am aware of.) all religions that offer a explanation or understanding of god are false. At best misguided and at worst out right lies to manipulate others.

And finally, I can not chose to believe in god. I can go through all the motions so everyone else thinks I believe, but I will still not believe. I have to be convinced that X belief is right or I am lying to myself and to the form of god I pretend to worship.

 

[stumben32]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
What do atheists believe?

I would assume that atheists believe in atheism, simply that there is no god.

It follows that any religion that worships a god is erroneous.

If you agree with that premise, please read on.

But it's not enough to simply say what does not exist. What do atheists truly believe in? What do they propose gives order to the universe? I would expect science and reason. I wouldn't expect an atheist to say he or she believes in nothing, because atheists tend not to be nihilists, and nihilism doesn't really exist anyway.

Assuming atheists do believe that rational, scientific reasoning is the only way to discern truth, then it follows that atheism must be a religion unto its own, simply with a different god. When I think about it, people engage in a religion generally out of a search for the truth, and they find God. An atheist engages in the same thing for the same reason, and finds reason and logic.

That's my point. If atheists are atheists because they seek the truth about order to the universe, then they're behaving just as religions behave, although atheism has no organization like the Papacy or such.

I'll put in another way that's not as convoluted.

In my opinion, religions don't worship God. They worship Truth, and to them, that truth is God. How are atheists any different, except that they name their God something else?

I hope not to ignite any tempers.

You can label me what ever you like.

All I believe is that I will find out when I get there. To me, its like stepping into the complete unknown. No book, Bible, Religion or peoples belief mean anything to me.

I do not believe in a God or Gods. I do not disbelieve either. I do not rule out anything. I will find out when I get there.

I am no religion. I am not Atheist. Agnostic perhpaps. Whatever - I am just one of the rare individuals that is open to anything including this form of existence is just one small stepping stone towards something none of us can possibly comprehend.

In saying that I completely respect everyones beliefs, there is no right or wrong.

I could talk for a long time on this... but people get far too easily offended. I guess to put it simply...to focus on one religion to me seems.... dare I say it... primitive. But there is nothing wrong with that, if it makes you a better person.

I believe in my current existance and to make the most of it in what ever way I see fit. Ill take the next bridge when I get there.

 

[yours truly]

i wonder how many atheists turn to god on their deathbeds..

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: hopeless74
i wonder how many atheists turn to god on their deathbeds..

That is out of fear, which does not make it any more true.

For me, I am immortal through my children and their children and their children's children's.

And yes I would be terrified to die right now as I have no children.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't believe in God, Christianity, Islam, Hindu or any of that because I consider the source of all that nonsense, ancient man.

To ignore the value of an idea solely because of its age is not wise.

 

[shocksyde]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: judasmachine
There is nothing to believe. The Earth is here, we are here, and that's that. Morality comes from a sense of compassion, and a foreknowledge of the consequences of ones behavior, not from a long storied guy in the sky.

Okay, but you contradict yourself. You say there is nothing to believe, then you tell me what IS. You've told me what you do believe in. You're using reasoning, and that means you believe in reasoning.

Believe in reasoning? WHO THE HELL DOESN'T????

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I don't believe in God, Christianity, Islam, Hindu or any of that because I consider the source of all that nonsense, ancient man.

To ignore the value of an idea solely because of its age is not wise.

Not the age but the ignorance.

 

[shocksyde]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Atheists don't believe shit.

Okay, so you don't believe in Mathematics?

Ok, now you're really grasping at straws. STOP NOW.

How about we turn it around on you. Why is God more believable than a Magical Pink Unicorn that shits rainbow sherbert? Prove to me that God exists and that the Unicorn doesn't. Here's a hint: I'm going to die waiting.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: hopeless74
i wonder how many atheists turn to god on their deathbeds..

Probably around the same amount as the number of people who watch something horrible happen and conclude that there is no god.

 

[yours truly]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy

Originally posted by: hopeless74
i wonder how many atheists turn to god on their deathbeds..

That is out of fear, which does not make it any more true.

For me, I am immortal through my children and their children and their children's children's.

And yes I would be terrified to die right now as I have no children.

fear maybe, but imo i think its realization.

personally, i believe, whether we believe in god is irrelevant. we were created from a source, from somewhere, somehow. everything we see in this world/universe is god.

 

[rpanic]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
I will end on this also....

Gravity is not believed to but known to exist. The varying degree of accuracy WRT the amount of gravity can be argued but the statement in and of itself cannot.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512

It's just a belief that pulls you towards earth. :disgust:

But the brothers say the white man is keeping them down

 

[Ricochet]

The OP is very liberal with his symantecs. He ascert that believing in logic and reason is equivalent to believing in god. Such is not the case, one is a process of thinking while the other is a (perceived) "tangible" entity. Logic and rational does not equal god. There is no point in arguing with him if he doesn't get that straighten out.

What he should have said is that both atheists and theists require faith in their beliefs. One cannot move forward into believing anything without faith. Atheists tend to put a greater faith in the scientific method for the establishment of truths while theists have already accepted a certain amount of truths (through giant leaps of faith).

 

[shocksyde]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: hopeless74
i wonder how many atheists turn to god on their deathbeds..

Probably around the same amount as the number of people who watch something horrible happen and conclude that there is no god.

I like the cut of your jib. Think and Juicy, mmmmmm.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The religious and the atheist have always struck me as the same. One says "God exists" the other says "God does not exist".

Since no one can prove or disprove God by a scientific method, the whole argument comes down to which side yells the loudest. As I cannot know with certainty, I will defend the right of either side to have an opinion, but it's an opinion without a basis other than belief.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: hopeless74

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy

Originally posted by: hopeless74
i wonder how many atheists turn to god on their deathbeds..

That is out of fear, which does not make it any more true.

For me, I am immortal through my children and their children and their children's children's.

And yes I would be terrified to die right now as I have no children.

fear maybe, but imo i think its realization.

It isn't realization....it is rationalization. They are rationalizing that they are better off making some claim now so that in the minute chance that there is a god....they have hedged their bets.

 

[Ricochet]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
The religious and the atheist have always struck me as the same. One says "God exists" the other says "God does not exist".

Since no one can prove or disprove God by a scientific method, the whole argument comes down to which side yells the loudest. As I cannot know with certainty, I will defend the right of either side to have an opinion, but it's an opinion without a basis other than belief.

The burden of proof is on those making the claim. Those lacking in belief shouldn't have to prove anything.

 

[Vageetasjn]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: hopeless74

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy

Originally posted by: hopeless74
i wonder how many atheists turn to god on their deathbeds..

That is out of fear, which does not make it any more true.

For me, I am immortal through my children and their children and their children's children's.

And yes I would be terrified to die right now as I have no children.

fear maybe, but imo i think its realization.

It isn't realization....it is rationalization. They are rationalizing that they are better off making some claim now so that in the minute chance that there is a god....they have hedged their bets.

Seems to me the solution to a fear of death is a medical cure for aging, not a panic-induced belief in a god.

 

[yours truly]

Originally posted by: ricochet

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
The religious and the atheist have always struck me as the same. One says "God exists" the other says "God does not exist".

Since no one can prove or disprove God by a scientific method, the whole argument comes down to which side yells the loudest. As I cannot know with certainty, I will defend the right of either side to have an opinion, but it's an opinion without a basis other than belief.

The burden of proof is on those making the claim. Those lacking in belief shouldn't have to prove anything.

well proof to me is simple. just look out of a window, or go for a walk. theres my answer

if you cant see it, thats a shame

what proof exactly do atheists want..