A Quote from Anandtech member Corn on executive compensation got me wondering if..

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Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
They won't end up "Americanized" in a negative way, so long as their parents stay off the dole, pay their own way and don't father umpteen kids by umpteen different women, expecting "society" to raise them. I don't give a damn what Jerboy and his ilk want in life so long as I don't have to pay his way or his offspring. Our whole economy runs on fluff & stuff, so what? So long as it creates jobs, fine! Pays for Hillary & Ted's constituents' kids to boot!
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
So, it doesn't matter to what we are progressing, as long as we are "progressing".

The American dream is lost, replaced by gottahaveit corporate cool. What does it mean when North America is by far the key market for medications dealing with mental afflictions? It means this lifestyle is empty.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
"We still haven't heard where attitude comes from."

Everybody starts with a decent attitude. Trouble is, it gets corrupted! Better question is, who is to blame for "bad attitude"? That blame would lie with parents, peers and "the world owes me a living", Democrat/Socialist, welfare mindset.

I'm STILL waiting to hear you spudnuts come up with a BETTER system!
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
I would say that part of the corruption comes from the whole precept of blame itself. To blame is to overlook the fact that if you were born and raised under the same circumstances of the person whom the blame is being directed at, you would be the same as they.

We still have not addressed what creates attitude.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
...if you were born and raised under the same circumstances...

No sh|t, that's a given! So, who is going to stop the cycle? Obviously not the parents or their kids. It's up to "society" to cut them off welfare or incarcerate them... whatever. Whether it's the parent's, peers or their own fault for being a dregs on society, it AIN'T MY FAULT! When they're sitting in jail or huffing glue under a bridge, they can blame their parents, peers or themselves for their plight, NOT ME!
  • Main Entry: at·ti·tude
    Pronunciation: 'a-t&-"tüd, -"tyüd
    Function: noun
    Etymology: French, from Italian attitudine, literally, aptitude, from Late Latin aptitudin-, aptitudo fitness -- more at APTITUDE
    Date: 1668
    1 : the arrangement of the parts of a body or figure : POSTURE
    2 : a position assumed for a specific purpose <a threatening attitude>
    3 : a ballet position similar to the arabesque in which the raised leg is bent at the knee
    4 a : a mental position with regard to a fact or state b : a feeling or emotion toward a fact or state
    5 : the position of an aircraft or spacecraft determined by the relationship between its axes and a reference datum (as the horizon or a particular star)
    6 : an organismic state of readiness to respond in a characteristic way to a stimulus (as an object, concept, or situation)
    7 a : a negative or hostile state of mind b : a cocky or arrogant manner
I'll tell what gives me THAT attitude. Working 60 or more hours per week while certain individuals are breeding and collecting government checks, courtesy of yours truly, blue collar chump! :|
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
If you're not watering the seeds of good in people, what right have you to complain? It's fruitless to get mad and start blaming, responsibility does not lie on one person or group, it's all of us.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,418
293
126
When you're dirt poor living in the slums of some god awful neighborhood with a crack addict mom and no one really to look out for you, what kind of hope do you really have? Yes, scrounge up that attitude my boy, pick yourself up by the bootstraps and make something of yourself.
Most "poor" people in this country cannot claim to be destitute in the way your describe: crack addicted mother, father in prison or who knows where, all their relatives and neighbors are the same way so they have nobody, not even a concerned neighbor who provides that second home. That sure describes some of them, many perhaps, but not all.

I'm not speaking of the most destitute of children because there is little hope for them. They have been failed by their mother, their father, their grandparents, their extended family, their neighbors, and their community. I don't entertain any delusions these children can be helped since everyone else has failed them. The only hope for them is to be taken at an early age from the hopelessly incompetent parents they were cursed with, parent's whose problems go far deeper than class or income, because you aren't going to 'rehabilitate' a crack whore.

But while we're on the subject of crack addicts, ask any police officer whose patrol includes high crime areas where prostitution is rampant how many of these prostitutes are from middle class homes. Quite a few. So if middle class standard of living does not preclude your child from becoming addicted to drugs and turning to prostitution, then this isn't all about money or class.

Not that it would be the first time in history that a 'disadvantaged' child who has essentially raised themselves for whatever reason might turn-out to be a productive member of society without the assistance of any 'social intervention programs'. There are numerous examples that prove people can and do, as you say, 'scrounge up that attitude, pick themselves up by their bootstraps and make something of themselves'.

In fact, examples are legion, if you look for them, but I understand the underlying reason why we not only don't look for them, we pretend they are rare or don't exist at all.

There is nothing quite like a classic rags to riches, or at least rags to middle class, story to make some people confront how much of a failure they are by comparison. Do you see why? So here's this person who was raised in a home that possessed every single criterion to qualify for what we have come to call "disadvantaged", yet he has accomplished as much or more than we have although we had all the advantages by comparison. DAMNED HIM TO HELL FOR MAKING ME LOOK SO BAD!

It's difficult to make excuses that generate sympathy for why you haven't achieved or have all these character flaws when someone else, who had a far more tragic upbringing than you, is out there getting it done without making any excuses.

Does that mean such "self-made" people don't have emotional scars from their upbringins? Not at all, they just don't believe its appropriate to jump on Oprah and tell the world about them because A. nobody really cares anyway, everyone has their own problems to worry about, and B. complaining doesn't change your situation, only action does (attitude).

But there's an even more sinister force at work. When you have discovered, as many politicians have, we all KNOW who they are, that you can get elected by making a constituency out of all those people who are disposed to offer excuses and sob-stories for why they haven't achieved and possess all these character flaws, that's a powerful interest in seeing that rags to riches stories are quashed, discounted, misrepresented, or are portrayed as the rare exception to a more depressing and inevitable rule.

Of course, when such a politician makes appeals to this kind of consitutuency, generation after generation, it does become the rule, rationalization becomes reality, because the excuses and sob-stories become ingrained into the conciousness of the community, they become truisms merely by a feat of perception, as the reasons they cannot achieve or have all these character flaws.

Personally, I find rags to riches stories to be uplifting and moving, they make me "feel" pretty damned good. I think 'God Bless America', one of the few places on earth you'll ever see it happen, and certainly THE first country in modern history to make such a thing possible. The US is the BIRTHPLACE of the rags to riches story.

But then I celebrate the accomplishments of other people, I don't hate on them for having more, accomplishing more, being more disciplined, persistent, ambitious, driven, or more talented, than I. I feel envy is one of the most destructive forces in the world and I will have no part of it. But, we shall put that aside for now...

The "poor" I had in mind are PERFECTLY represented by the fantastic excerpt provided by Ornery from Spike Lee's "Do the Right Thing" (thank you Ornery, that was perfect!).

Too long! Too long. Now for the
life of me, I haven't been able to
figger this out. Either dem
Koreans are geniuses or we Blacks
are dumb.

This is truly a stupefying question and all three are silent.
What is the answer?

It's gotta be cuz we're Black. No
other explanation, nobody don't
want the Black man to be about sh*t
Rationalization becomes reality: 'Da Man don't want the black man (or poor man, as its frequently heard) to be about sh-t, so we'll give them what they want, we won't be about sh-t. We'll just sit here, drink ourselves a 40, smoke us a blunt, hate on those who work hard and refuse to accept anyone's expectation, whether actual or imagined, that they shouldn't be about sh-t, and try to git all we can from those suckers.'

I cannot count on my fingers and toes all of the people I've known or overheard espousing some form of this mentality (attitude). It's rampant among the lower classes, that's why many belong to the lower classes, and will stay there.

The excerpt is a work of irony, for Koreans are neither geniuses nor blacks dumb. The difference was attitude, which was NOT lost on the characters. In fact, the true 'shame' being referred to by one of the characters was a bit of subtlely; the 'shame' was that when the Creator was handing out ambition and enterprise, He seemed to give an abundance to the Koreans while the characters weren't given any.

We've all heard some form of that joke: "Its a damned shame, when God was handing out brains...talent...yadda...I didn't know you could get in line again...he got in line twice...I was standing in the wrong line...yadda."
Where does attitude come from.
Attitude comes from a variety of influences. It is not just a matter of what attitude one learns to have, but also a matter of learning what attitude will get you no sympathy.

Certain attitudes are not sympathized with in some circles, and so at least you know which attitude(s) will NOT gain you any sympathizers among your circle of friends, neighbors, family, etc. and so there is a disincentive, or at least no incentive, to adopt such an attitude.

This brings me right back to the example of the attitude I mentioned above:

'Da Man don't want the black man (or poor man, as its frequently heard) to be about sh-t, so we'll give them what they want, we won't be about sh-t. We'll just sit here, drink ourselves a 40, smoke us a blunt, hate on those who work hard and refuse to accept anyone's expectation, whether actual or imagined, that they shouldn't be about sh-t, and try to git all we can from those suckers.'

If this is the predominant attitude in your circle of friends, neighbors, family, etc. that you've been indoctrinated into since birth, and all the politicians and "community leaders" (politicians) are appealing to this attitude, then you're probably going to adopt it.
 

cavingjan

Golden Member
Nov 15, 1999
1,719
0
0
tscenter: another fine post. Whether someone agrees with the comments or not, it is still a clear and well written post and I applaud you for that.


The only thing I want to make a comment on goes back to one of Red Dawn's remarks: about the corporate gottahaveitnow attitude. This is nothing new. Its been around for centuries. The difference now, compared to say 400 years ago: speed. Look at the old newspapers and you see it. Look at the stories taken from the wild west time period and you see it. The older the source, the slower the source (television to radio to print media to word of mouth). The difference is just in how fast the news of that great new invention, gadget, tonic, or snake oil takes for get from the originator to the end user who buys it. When the news takes two weeks to reach you and it takes another month before you can actually buy it, you tend to get side tracked by that next new gottahaveit item and you forget all about buying it. Now you can see it and buy it in such a short time that the consequences (if any) haven't even surfaced before its in your hands. The people who drag their feet on a purchase do not tend to have as much material possessions. Again they tend to get distracted and find something that they would rather have instead of the first gottahaveit item. Those that are more impulsive end up having both items at the cost (time, money, effort) of both and then they need to deal with paying for both which they may or may not be able to do.

Lets face it the world is getting smaller every day. And with it comes more and more choices. This is a large part of the puzzle and not as many people think through the consequences or possibilities of their actions (or they are so used to their own little world that they do not realize the farther reaching effects of their choices).
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,674
6,194
126
Most people in this country, wealthy by world wide standards, cannot claim to be well off in the way your might imagine: market addicted mother, father in at work or who knows where, fornicating, all their relatives and neighbors are the same way so they have nobody, not even a concerned neighbor who provides that second home. That sure describes some of them, many perhaps, but not all.

I'm not speaking of the most well off of children because there is little hope for them. They have been let down by their mother, their father, their grandparents, their extended family, their neighbors, and their community. I don't entertain any delusions these children can be helped since everyone else has failed them. The only hope for them is to be taken at an early age from the hopelessly incompetent parents they were cursed with, parent's whose problems go far deeper than class or income, because you aren't going to 'crack the whip on gold digging whores.

But while we're on the subject of crack, ask any psychiatrist who customers includes high wealth areas where gold digging is rampant how many of these prostitutes are from these relatively poor Market driven and lucky to be born in America, class homes. All. So if a world class standard of living does not preclude your child from becoming addicted to social climing and turning to prostitution, then this isn't all about money or class, its about the social structure, wrong attitude, the market capitalism that values something other than life.

Not that it would be the first time in history that an 'advantaged' child who has essentially raised him or her self for whatever reason might turn-out to be a productive member of the ?Invisible World Society of the Enlightened? without the assistance of any 'social intervention programs'. There are numerous examples that prove people can and do, as said earlier, 'scrounge up that attitude, pick themselves up by their bootstraps and make something of themselves'.

In fact, examples are legion, if you could but see them, but I understand the underlying reason why we not only don't look for them, we pretend they are rare or don't exist at all.

There is nothing quite like a classic riches to truth seeker, or at least ?rich by world-wide standards to truth seeker? story to make some people confront how much of a failure they are by comparison. Do you see why? So here's this person who was raised in a home that possessed every single criterion to qualify for what has to be call "advantaged", yet he has accomplished as much or more than we have although we had as many or more advantages by comparison. DAMNED HIM TO HELL FOR MAKING ME LOOK SO BAD!

It's difficult to make excuses that generate sympathy for why you haven't achieved or have all these character flaws when someone else, who had a far more tragic upbringing than you, is out there getting it done without making any excuses.

Does that mean such "self-made" people don't have emotional scars from their upbringings? Of course it does. These are the very scars they have found a way to heal. This is the market emptiness they have filled with knowledge and truth. It?s not that they don?t remember, no, it?s you who don?t remember, but if you don?t find them jumping on Oprah and telling the world about them because nobody really can bear to face their own pain so advertisers would run for the hills. In a market world, truth is the least valued substance, because it is the market?s greatest threat.

But there are other sinister forces at work. When you have discovered, as all politicians have, so we all know who they are, that you can get elected by making a constituency out of all those people who are market addicted and disposed to offer excuses and sob-stories for why they haven't achieved anything real and possess all these character flaws, you can see what a corollary, powerful interest will coalesce to insure that riches to enlightenment stories are quashed, discounted, misrepresented, or are portrayed as the rare exception to a more depressing and inevitable rule.

Of course, when such a politician makes appeals to this kind of constituency generation after generation, it does become the rule. Rationalization becomes reality, because the excuses and mind numbing become ingrained into the consciousness of the community; tautology becomes truism merely by a feat of perception, as the market forces that produce all these character flaws disappear in the uncouscious..

Personally, I find riches to enlightenment stories to be uplifting and moving. They make me "feel" pretty damned good. I think 'God Pitty America', one of the few places on earth you'll ever see it happen, and certainly THE first country in modern history to make such a thing nearly impossible. The US is the BIRTHPLACE of the riches to emotional emptiness story.

But then I can?t really celebrate the accomplishments of other people either. I don't hate on them for having more, accomplishing more, being more disciplined, persistent, freer from greed, less driven, or more talented than we; it?s just that the American sickness hasn?t impacted them as much yet. I feel linearit is one of the most destructive forces in the world and I will have no part of it. But, we shall put that aside for now...

The "sad rich" I had in mind are PERFECTLY represented by the fantastic Ornery?s need to from Spike Lee's "Do the Right Thing" (thank you Ornery, that was perfect!).


Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Too long! Too long. Now for the
life of me, I haven't been able to
figger this out. Either dem
Koreans are geniuses or we Blacks
are dumb.

This is truly a stupefying question and all three are silent.
What is the answer?

It's gotta be cuz we're Black. No
other explanation, nobody don't
want the Black man to be about sh*t
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rationalization becomes reality: 'Da Man don't want the black man (or poor man, as its frequently heard) to be about sh-t, so we'll give them what they want, we won't be about sh-t. We'll just sit here, drink ourselves a 40, smoke us a blunt, hate on those who work hard and refuse to accept anyone's expectation, whether actual or imagined, that they shouldn't be about sh-t, and try to git all we can from those suckers.'

I cannot count on my fingers and toes all of the people I've known or overheard espousing some form of this mentality (attitude). It's rampant among the lower classes, that's why many belong to the lower classes, and will stay there.

The excerpt is a work of irony, for Koreans are neither geniuses nor blacks dumb. The difference was attitude, which was NOT lost on the characters. In fact, the true 'shame' being referred to by one of the characters was a bit of subtlely; the 'shame' was that when the Creator was handing out ambition and enterprise, He seemed to give an abundance to the Koreans while the characters weren't given any.

We've all heard some form of that joke: "Its a damned shame, when God was handing out brains...talent...yadda...I didn't know you could get in line again...he got in line twice...I was standing in the wrong line...yadda."
Quote

Here we observe the silly sort of self pride one can have in living in the cleaner side of a rat cage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where does attitude come from.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attitude comes from a variety of influences. It is not just a matter of what attitude one learns to have, but also a matter of learning what attitude will induce market narcolepsy.

Certain attitudes are not sympathized with in some circles, and so at least you know which attitude(s) will NOT gain you any sympathizers among your circle of friends, neighbors, family, etc. and so there is a disincentive, or at least no incentive, to adopt such an attitude. It will be among these that you can find hope.

This brings me right back to the example of the need to point out the faults in the attitude of others as I mentioned above:

'Da Man don't want the black man (or poor man, as its frequently heard) to be about sh-t, so we'll give them what they want, we won't be about sh-t. We'll just sit here, drink ourselves a 40, smoke us a blunt, hate on those who work hard and refuse to accept anyone's expectation, whether actual or imagined, that they shouldn't be about sh-t, and try to git all we can from those suckers.'

If this is the predominant finger pointing attitude in your circle of friends, neighbors, family, etc. that you've been indoctrinated into since birth, and all the politicians and "community leaders" (politicians) are appealing to this attitude, then you're probably going to adopt it.

Remember that in the invisible world where value comes from the heart the truth is completely different than anything you can possibly imagine. Not only is the market world up side down, it?s inside out. When we argue with Truth, we are only arguing with figments of our imaginations. Truth has its own price. It will cost you everything you believe
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
That blame would lie with parents, peers and "the world owes me a living", Democrat/Socialist, welfare mindset.
So you've been saying for oh.. the last 3 or so years here
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
Moonbeam - I'm an executive, just 1 level below CFO and my next job prbably will be CFO of a public company. I respect your right to state your views. I disagree with them for 2 reasons. The first is that I do not want you or some housewives in the middle of Kansas to set how much money I make. That is a matter between me, my company, and the marketplace. I put in quite a few years studying and working at lower paying jobs to complete an intership to position myself for where I am now. I sacrificed other parts of my life to build my career to the place it is now. I do not lie or cheat. I insisted that I sign all SEC filings so I could ensure that I agreed with what they said (the Controller typically doesn't sign every filing, just the CFO and CEO). I expect that I'll be paid what I have gained from my hard work and sacrifice and I want you to stay out of it.

The second reason is that you are very misinformed about both CEO compensation and behaviour and the media is sensationalizing some cases that are far from the norm. To blindly act because this is the latest cause du jour is a poor way to set policy.

Red Dawn - First, I've been to Korea and work with and know a fair amount of Koreans. There is plenty of advertising in Korea and the people there are just as affected as Americans are. As for me and my family (I now have 2 daughters as Rachel Lydia was born this weekend), we know what advertising does. I have taught my 5-year old (Sarah) that advertisements are lies and should be treated as such unless she has personal experience that proves otherwise. Whenever she sees an add on T.V. and asked for the item, we have a talk about advertising. With a little resposnible parenting, most kids can be taught what advertisments are for and their effect can be partially countered (my daughter really likes Barbie toys, so there's only so much that can be done ...)

Michael
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,424
8,386
126
ah, the old question, social indoctrination or instinctive drive...?


surprisingly, no one has refuted my explanation of how executive compensation is determined, and no one has commented on how ridiculous that system appears.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
There is plenty of advertising in Korea and the people there are just as affected as Americans are.
Damn!!! Well let's make it Ugandan Shopkeepers then. Yeah that's the ticket!

BTW, you sound like you have a wonderful life and great children. You also sound like a very attentive and responsible parent.You don't count as I was refering to the average American.
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
BTW, you sound like you have a wonderful life and great children. You also sound like a very attentive and responsible parent.You don't count as I was refering to the average American.

Bahahaha.

In Semi-Response to this thread, I have a hard time believing people who say capitalism is the only system that will work. I HIGHLY DOUBT a greed based system is the 'end all be all' of systems. It may work now, but perhaps when humans, as a race, are more mature, they won't need greed to keep them in line. Moonbeam has his eyes set on a system where people do things because they need to be done and because they want to help their fellow people. Some can't see this system yet, that is fine, but to proclaim it could never work is rather sad.

In other related news, I deleted all the video games from my computer today. I think this is the first step to killing all the time sinks artificially placed into our lives. I should get rid of my TV while I'm at it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,674
6,194
126
Several small points, Michael. Firstly, I didn't come to this issue just today. I have been aware of the joke of executive pay for many many years. Secondly I see no reason to assume I'm any more misinformed about both CEO compensation and behavior than you are. In fact I would argue the opposite, but it is irrelevant here, firstly because on a business for business comparison Japanese and European companies compete successfully with the huge gap between executive and worker pay vastly reduced, and secondly, I have not laid out an opinion of executive behavior. Secondly, when you talk about sacrificing parts of your life to get where you are, you make my case. Thirdly, I have no direct control over your pay so there is nothing for me to stay out of, but if you refer to my right to speak my opinion and influence my government to the extent of my one vote, you can ah heck off. I shall continue to pursue that form of government I think best effects my safety and happiness. I'm just not going to tell Ornery what it is till he defines terms like value.

Sorry linuxboy, I just can't help myself.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,674
6,194
126
Imagine that Rachel Lydia and Sarah are washed out to sea in a flash flood in a small coastal village on the Philippines coastline because timber cutters have cut the forest along the river that flows through it. They have done so because the Japanese are paying a big price for lumber to make pallets to ship electronic equipment to America to be distributed by a company run by Michael. Michael runs an honest company. He breaks no laws. He goes by the book. He sells a lot of product. He's rewarded for years of hard work and drive. But the forest is gone. It had market value. Americans needed those electronic components, and two bodies are at the bottom of the sea feeding what's left of the over fished fishes that will soon be sushi feeding Japanese pallet makers and American executives at their annual picnic.

There is the linear and there is the holistic.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
Moonbeam - hey, dofus, is there some part of "I respect your right to state your views" that I wasn't being clear enough about? I would never argue that you couldn't post your opinions. I may think that they're either stupid, or to be kinder, misinformed, but you can post them as much as you want (assuming the mods don't step in). You may want to rethink your little "ah heck off" comment. I'm actually surprised that such an "enlightened" "man" such as yourself would use such a homo-phobic statement and such a shining light of rationality would ask me to go have anal sex. I've always thought you were a loon (harmless, but a loon). I'm glad to see you're just as much an oaf as the rest of us.

Michael
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
I have been aware of the joke of executive pay for many many years.

LOL, this is an amazing thread. Obviously, from Moonie's posts, especially the most recent, I was spot on regarding the envy of people not earning a CEO paycheck causing them to proclaim the "unfairness" of it all. Moonie wraps his under the cloak of "what's more important for society, shouldn't that matter most for compensation"?

Maybe so.

However, most CEO's income pale in comparison to those serving far more trivial pursuits, such as acting, music, and sports. Why does Tom Cruise 20 million dollars per average movie?

.....the answer is obvious:

I believe that tscenter (cannot be sure, it's a long thread) asked, "who is gonna pay that housewife"?

Well?

Why are people willing to pay Tom such an obscene salary, yet they let those that raise their children claw at the scraps left over.


One thing that amuses me the most is the hypocrisy of people like Moonbeam and Infos: These people fork over money hand over fist to be entertained by their favorite (liberal ) actors and musicians, when instead that money could be donated to those that are "more deserving", you know like teachers and firemem.

Until such people start to live according to what they preach, their opinions are really quite meaningless.......

 

gotsmack

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2001
5,768
0
71
Originally posted by: oblizue
Originally posted by: tcsenter
The value of a baseball player is determined by the fact that people are empty of content and need subjects like sports to hoot and holler about, in work and social settings, so as to divert attention away from that emptyness. People who know Ted Williams batting average are heros. Same story with movie stars, the news, etc, all valuable, invaluable in keeping us asleep. Pretty much the more useless a thing is, the more valuable it is.
So your problem is with human flaws and nature? Well! All hail to Moonbeam, Thou Great Exhaulted One! What would you have for us if you were King, Moonbeam? The Ministry of Worthiness, to which you are appointed Czar over all that is worthy? Anything which you have deemed 'shallow' and 'linear' shall not command a value or worth greater than what you have deemed worthy?

PUHLEEZE!
Yes yes tscenter, you and tm37 have got your brainwashing down pat. That is, of course the absure logic you have learned to recite to keep you grinding away, all this crap about value and worth all built on a philosophy of sand.
Yadda yadda. Do you understand why we are the wealthiest nation on the planet? Do you understand that if our country were built upon anything remotely resembling your philosophy, our economy, and thus the tax revenues we derive from it to fund all those neato social programs you love, would be a fraction of what it is? Investment and innovation would be a fraction of what it is?

Yet, poverty would still be a problem, probably a larger problem, because we would only have a fraction of the public revenues we currently enjoy to fund all these anti-poverty efforts. You certainly couldn't eliminate poverty, nobody else has. All you would accomplish is to eliminate the upper classes so the disparity between the rich and poor is smaller. That is not doing a thing for poverty! That is merely making everyone equal in poverty.

How do you plan to inspire and motivate people after you have eliminated "the pursuit of happiness" and in its place instituted "the pursuit of all things worthy according to the Czar of Worthiness?"
What is it worty to you that your neighbor's kids learn some values so they don't kill you comming home from the store just for fun.
The price of the .357Mag slugs they'll get for their troubles? I don't see why it should cost more than that, since I can take care of the problem definitively with my .357mag, yet there is no such reasonable assurance that any of my neighbors would teach their children values whether you threw duffle bags of money at them or not.

Children will either be taught values, or not, whether their parents are poor or not. This is determined by how much of a priority it is to the individual parent, not their income. Lest we are to believe that one's character and integrity increases with their income and status of privilege? RIGHT! More money is stolen with pens than guns.

Nothing builds character quite like ADVERSITY. YES! Poverty and struggle. I am FAR more apt to trust a person who understands STRUGGLE than a person who was raised in the lap of luxury and privilege.

Poverty doesn't create criminals and miscreants, else only the wealthy could claim to be law abiding and honest. ATTITUDE creates them.

Ever notice nobody is knocking over convenience stores and banks to feed their children? Ever wonder why people who shop-lift are NEVER caught stealing milk, eggs, butter, and baby formula? Nooo, they're caught stealing the most expensive cuts of meat, liquor, cigarettes, jewelry, fashionable clothes, etc. Who do you think those things are for, their children? Hell no, its for themselves!

The difference between two people raised in poverty, one who becomes a frequent member of our justice system and the other becomes an honest member of society, is entirely attributable to ATTITUDE!


What was that quote again, oh yes "The destruction of the poor is their poverty."

When you're dirt poor living in the slums of some god awful neighborhood with a crack addict mom and no one really to look out for you, what kind of hope do you really have? Yes, scrounge up that attitude my boy, pick yourself up by the bootstraps and make something of yourself.

It's not just a matter of attitude, and to look at it in that fashion is ignorance of a real problem in society. We have people living in dire poverty where success isn't really something to look forward to because it just doesn't exist. If poverty wasn't connected to the many problems existing in the ghettos of major cities, then why is it that the socio-economic status of areas with high crime rates are so low? The connection between poverty and crime certainly does exist and it is something that needs to be fixed.


it's not going to be fixed anytime soon.

When you talk about crime and the slums you also have to talk about the police force.

A while ago the police figured out that you can't stop crime, but you can controll it's location.

and guess where they decide to move it? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't to the neighborhoods of the people who were funding the police.

hey, he who pays the piper names the tune.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,651
100
91
Originally posted by: ElFenix
heres how CEO comp works: 1) when a CEO is hired the board wants to make them more tied to the company than just their salary so they are also paid in lots of stock, which given the market prior to the last few months has given CEOs a lot of cash 2) when you fire a guy you never assume the guy you hire is worse, so you need to pay him more than the guy that couldn't lead your company. 3) CEO search committees usually believe their CEO is in the top 10% as far as talent goes, so they should be paid in the top 10% as far as comp goes. of course this is falacious because 90% of CEOs have to be worse than what that projection is. but because each time a CEO is hired they get paid at the 90% or better level that only drives the level up. those are most of the reasons CEO comp has exploded in the past few years. the first is a sound practice i assume, the second obviously can't always be true, and the 3rd is wrong 90% of the time. which is why moonbeam has a point. there are some truely gifted or visionary people out there, but most of them are just some average talent guy that got some breaks or started out ahead in life. of course, since a CEO will take much of the blame even if its not his fault (much like managers and coaches in sports do quite often) perhaps they should be paid more.

Beyond that, the whacked compensation scale promotes such an imbalance within the top management, who can possible question a CEO who makes $20 million when you're making less than $1 million, muchless a layperson like the rest of us making less than $500k!! () These people are like rock stars within the firm and to question their integrity is about the same as deciding for an immediate career change.
 

Athanasius

Senior member
Nov 16, 1999
975
0
0
Quote

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Where does attitude come from? Better question is, who is to blame for "bad attitude"? That blame would lie with parents, peers and "the world owes me a living", Democrat/Socialist, welfare mindset. People who haven't been infected with that way of thinking, come to this country, roll up their sleeves and... drum roll... WORK!
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Red Dawn response:
How about Corporate America and their advertising agents feeding our heads 7/24 that we need to have the an HDTV, a Cadillac SUV, Smirnoff's Ice, Some beautiful member of the opposite sex on our arm, The Pushup Bra or Viagra (well in your case)the body of a Greek God and a couple of Big Macs to go? Our decadents and the Brainwashing caused by our out of control Capitalistic Frenzy to cash in on the American Lemmings is the problem.



Well, why are we so vulnerable to such programming? I agree with the statement that we have been programmed. Let me summarize my own opinion of the current consumerism in the American economy. WW2 generated a huge industrial effort and manufacturing of goods that pulled us out of the Depression. But when the war ended, there was not enough "demand" to maintain such a vigorus "supply." Without such demand, such consumption, it is hard for an economic system based on compound interest and the joint stock venture to propser long term.

Enter the "Marketing Weasel." In short, in order to maintain supply, an "artificial demand" had to be created to replace the legitimate demand of the war effort. Hence, a car is no longer a tool kept until it no longer functions; it is now a status symbol that somehow measures our worth as persons. Therefore it "needs" to be upgraded every four or five years so that I can feel like I am somehow keeping up.

Marketing certainly does work on this precept. But the cure is not found in legislating some forced equality. The cure is found in addressing this "artifical neediness" that is so effective in manipulating people.

I am all for a free market economy, with some government oversight. The free market (right hand)and the government (left hand) are both extensions of the people. This is one case where I feel like the left hand needs to know what the right hand is doing. Still, I think I must disappoint Moonbeam sometimes. I have "corporate" leanings because it seems that overall such a system works better than anything else we the people have come up with in recorded history.

I also have such leanings because physical freedom is a potential precursor to true freedom. People have an inflated sense of neediness, a hunger that cannot be assauged and turns some of us into feral predators. Some times this becomes so obvious as to reach the level of absurd. After all, what functional difference is there between making ten million a year and one hundred million?

It is good that our system is open and has the freedom to pay CEO's and athletes and whoever else whatever the market can legitimately sustain.

It would be even better if the people who gained such positions were so truly free that they were content with food and clothing and thus truly free to use their vast resources for the common good of all people. Not just the good of the shareholders, but the good of people who have no ability to ever repay the CEO.

"But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. people who counsel within themselves continously seeking ways to become rich fall into a trial and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge humanity into ruin and destruction." -- Paul of Tarsus, circa 65 AD

The root idea behind "content" is from the word meaning "bear." In other words, contentment is like a powerful force that shields us from this inflated and false sense of neediness. Paul wasn't saying that we should take away from the rich. He had once been rich himself and wealth is not a sin. What he was addressing was this tendency to feel needy where no true need exists, if we foster godliness and contentment.

If there is godliness and the most basic physical necessities, there is the possibility of contentment. Where there is contentment, there is the potential for great gain.

We have not seen a society where such "great gain" is evidenced. It has nothing to do with net worth and the creature comforts that we get drunk on to make life somehow more pleasing to ourselves so that we can trick ourselves into thinking that we are happy.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,418
293
126
Most people in this country, wealthy by world wide standards, cannot claim to be well off in the way your might imagine: market addicted mother, father in at work or who knows where, fornicating, all their relatives and neighbors are the same way so they have nobody, not even a concerned neighbor who provides that second home. That sure describes some of them, many perhaps, but not all.
Moonbeam, your mockery only wound up producing a most ridiculous post that just reinforces how zaney and weird you really are. Do you realize that? Moreover, it shows your intellect does not run nearly as deep as you like to pretend it does, given that you've resorted now to mockery vs. actually attempting to address in earnest anything I've written. May I take that to mean you have no response because you're beaten?

So, let's recap, your problem isn't with capitalism, or the free market, your real problem is that you live in a world where very few people agree with your whacky view of things and you're bitter about it? You feel like a fish out of water, eh? You're just soooo much more sophistikated then us dumb material worshippers, you have so much more 'depth' where we just be narrow minded and shallow bottom-dwellers not worthy of your adoration and respect. You're 'enlightened' and we're just backwards fools. Hmm, they have a word for this kind of person...its not coming to me right now.

Well what then, since we live in a free and open society, would you have for us to "remedy" the materialism in Western society? Bring back the Iron Curtain? Start imprisoning people for trying to sell something?
 
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