A reminder, what is torture?

[Czar]

So many people here seem to have no idea what torture is, they usualy think that it involves inflicting physical pain or possibly the white house version, death or organ failure. It seems that redefining words to suits ones agenda is the new way.

So here are a few definitions for everyone to enjoy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture
"Torture is any act by which severe pain, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, deterrence, revenge, punishment, sadism, or information gathering."

http://www.answers.com/torture&r=67
"Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
Something causing severe pain or anguish."

"Definition: severe mental or physical pain"

"Infliction of intolerable physical or psychological pain. Torture has been used by governments throughout history for punishment, coercion, and intimidation and for extracting confessions and information."

"torture, the intentional infliction of severe physical or mental pain or suffering in order to intimidate, coerce, obtain information or a confession, or punish. In international law, the term is usually further restricted to actions committed by persons acting in an official capacity."

Think about how you define as what constitutes as torture. See if it fits reality.

 

[Pabster]

Thanks for your wiki definitions. That clears it right up.

I don't support physical torture but I do support just about everything else. If it saves a life, I'm all for it.

 

[dahunan]

accepting that bush and his warmonger friends are running this country is torture for me

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Pabster
Thanks for your wiki definitions. That clears it right up.

I don't support physical torture but I do support just about everything else. If it saves a life, I'm all for it.

What do you classify as physical torture and what as not physical torture?

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: Pabster
Thanks for your wiki definitions. That clears it right up.

I don't support physical torture but I do support just about everything else. If it saves a life, I'm all for it.

What do you classify as physical torture and what as not physical torture?

How does he define who should be tortured is another VERY important question

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Czar
What do you classify as physical torture and what as not physical torture?

Oh, I don't know. Letting a dog take a few pieces out of someone's arm or leg?

Torture to me is physical. Everything else is interrogation and truth finding.

 

[Genx87]

Loud music, sleep deprevation, waterboarding oh noes!

2 of the 3 above were used on United States citizens at Waco under Clinton, oh the horror!

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Czar
What do you classify as physical torture and what as not physical torture?

Oh, I don't know. Letting a dog take a few pieces out of someone's arm or leg?

Torture to me is physical. Everything else is interrogation and truth finding.

ok, then thats your personal opinion, doesnt fit with reality though

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Loud music, sleep deprevation, waterboarding oh noes!

2 of the 3 above were used on United States citizens at Waco under Clinton, oh the horror!

would you want all those three to be common practice by the police in the US ?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: Genx87
Loud music, sleep deprevation, waterboarding oh noes!

2 of the 3 above were used on United States citizens at Waco under Clinton, oh the horror!

would you want all those three to be common practice by the police in the US ?

It is and I dont see a problem with sleep deprevation or loud music in stand offs or interegations where people's lives are at risk. Oh lets not forgot the other horrible torture of leaving them in a 50 degree room then moving them to a warm room, oh the horror. I experienced that last weekend thanks to old mother nature, I should have her brought up on torture charges, the bish.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: Genx87
Loud music, sleep deprevation, waterboarding oh noes!

2 of the 3 above were used on United States citizens at Waco under Clinton, oh the horror!

would you want all those three to be common practice by the police in the US ?

It is and I dont see a problem with sleep deprevation or loud music in stand offs or interegations where people's lives are at risk.

oh, thats news to me, that the police would use those methoods on to interrigate people

 

[palehorse]

The problem with all of those defitions that include "mental" or "psychological" torture is that adhering to them would mean that we cant even YELL at a prisoner... or keep them confined somewhere... or even have them wait in a waiting room!! We wouldn't be allowed to use ANY form of interrogation... at all... ever.

hence Bush's intentions to spell out and clarify our interpretation of GC article 3. His only desire is to make an actual list of the methods that can and cannot be used so that our interrogators have a definitive reference. This would eliminate all of the ambiguity in the process and it would be a list that the modern world could adopt as a whole to use as guidelines for their own interrogations. The existance of such a list would make it visible for the entire world to judge the humane nature of each method.

however, the left (and McCain and Co.) would have you believe that it means "Bush condones torture!"... bah... what crap.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
however, the left (and McCain and Co.) would have you believe that it means "Bush condones torture!"... bah... what crap.

Yep. And don't forget our great Jimmy Carter who recently accused the Bush Administration of torture. Don't you just love these patriots?

 

[Genx87]

however, the left (and McCain and Co.) would have you believe that it means "Bush condones torture!"... bah... what crap

Did you read the list of what the president wanted to be allowed and they cried?

Sleep deprevation
Loud Music
Hot\cold room routine
Waterboarding
Yelling or heightened tone
forced to stand for long periods of time

And they are crying about that, may as well just put the white flag up now.

 

[palehorse]

ohhh nooo, NOT the "stand still for two hours" method! that's obscene!!!!

 

[Czar]

You people are forgetting the point of torture, the point is the break the mind. You can do it through physical pain or you can do it through mental pain. The difference is only the methood, not the results, not that in the end the person being tortured will say whetever the torturer wants to hear just to end the pain.

Do you genx and palehorse be willing to risk being arrested as a suspect and be subjecated to those methoods you have talked about?
Do you both think that information gathered through such methoods would be reliable?

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
ohhh nooo, NOT the "stand still for two hours" method! that's obscene!!!!

2 hours? try 4 hours

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Czar
You people are forgetting the point of torture, the point is the break the mind. You can do it through physical pain or you can do it through mental pain. The difference is only the methood, not the results, not that in the end the person being tortured will say whetever the torturer wants to hear just to end the pain.

Do you genx and palehorse be willing to risk being arrested as a suspect and be subjecated to those methoods you have talked about?
Do you both think that information gathered through such methoods would be reliable?

If they didnt think it was a viable solution, what motive do they have to use the methods? Some people talk freely when you give them a hot meal, others talk after being forced to stand for 18 hours.

If I get arrested for terrorism suspicion, chances are, I will gladly open my yap when they give me a hot meal

 

[sierrita]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Czar
You people are forgetting the point of torture, the point is the break the mind. You can do it through physical pain or you can do it through mental pain. The difference is only the methood, not the results, not that in the end the person being tortured will say whetever the torturer wants to hear just to end the pain.

Do you genx and palehorse be willing to risk being arrested as a suspect and be subjecated to those methoods you have talked about?
Do you both think that information gathered through such methoods would be reliable?

If they didnt think it was a viable solution, what motive do they have to use the methods? Some people talk freely when you give them a hot meal, others talk after being forced to stand for 18 hours.

If I get arrested for terrorism suspicion, chances are, I will gladly open my yap when they give me a hot meal

And some dry underwear?

:laugh:

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: palehorse74
ohhh nooo, NOT the "stand still for two hours" method! that's obscene!!!!

2 hours? try 4 hours

OMG noooOOOO! NOT 4!! 4?!?? oh the humanity!

to answer your first question: I'd prefer sleep deprivation and even the waterboarding over a beating or the loss of my head, my toes, or my fingernails any day!

your second question: ALL information gathered using ANY method must be verified for accuracy. It has been proven that severe torture is pointless, especially if you intend to question the prisoner again in the future. (The prisoner will be shamed by the initial admissions and become harder to break the next time.. thus, the use of extreme torture is useless for longterm questioning, which is the goal of every interrogation. The only exception might be the imminent explosion of a WMD. In that case, I believe that extreme torture might be justifiable... but I'm not even sure about that).

The methods that Bush is trying to get approval for are NOT extreme torture by any means. Hell, waterboarding is about the worst, and even that is mostly mental.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: sierrita

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Czar
You people are forgetting the point of torture, the point is the break the mind. You can do it through physical pain or you can do it through mental pain. The difference is only the methood, not the results, not that in the end the person being tortured will say whetever the torturer wants to hear just to end the pain.

Do you genx and palehorse be willing to risk being arrested as a suspect and be subjecated to those methoods you have talked about?
Do you both think that information gathered through such methoods would be reliable?

If they didnt think it was a viable solution, what motive do they have to use the methods? Some people talk freely when you give them a hot meal, others talk after being forced to stand for 18 hours.

If I get arrested for terrorism suspicion, chances are, I will gladly open my yap when they give me a hot meal

And some dry underwear?

:laugh:

That of course depends on the type of meal they give me, Mexican or Chinese, I will need a couple pair and may even be charged with a WMD violation

 

[NJDevil]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: palehorse74
however, the left (and McCain and Co.) would have you believe that it means "Bush condones torture!"... bah... what crap.

Yep. And don't forget our great Jimmy Carter who recently accused the Bush Administration of torture. Don't you just love these patriots?

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-Theodore Roosevelt

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: NJDevil

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: palehorse74
however, the left (and McCain and Co.) would have you believe that it means "Bush condones torture!"... bah... what crap.

Yep. And don't forget our great Jimmy Carter who recently accused the Bush Administration of torture. Don't you just love these patriots?

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-Theodore Roosevelt

not to hijack the thread or anything, but this is always a fun picture to ponder: Carter's BFF

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: NJDevil
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-Theodore Roosevelt

Yeah, nothing wrong with a former President supporting terrorists, campaigning against US interests at the UN, and accusing the President of war crimes.

 

[Kntx]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Czar
You people are forgetting the point of torture, the point is the break the mind. You can do it through physical pain or you can do it through mental pain. The difference is only the methood, not the results, not that in the end the person being tortured will say whetever the torturer wants to hear just to end the pain.

Do you genx and palehorse be willing to risk being arrested as a suspect and be subjecated to those methoods you have talked about?
Do you both think that information gathered through such methoods would be reliable?

If they didnt think it was a viable solution, what motive do they have to use the methods? Some people talk freely when you give them a hot meal, others talk after being forced to stand for 18 hours.

If I get arrested for terrorism suspicion, chances are, I will gladly open my yap when they give me a hot meal

My question is... how do you force someone to stand for 18 hours?