A reminder, what is torture?

[kylebisme]

People are forced to stand by restraining them in a manor by which they cannot sit down, such as handcuffing a man behind his back around a handrail. Try that on yourself for 18 hours and see if that could get you give answers you may not even have.

 

[Kntx]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
People are forced to stand by restraining them in a manor by which they cannot sit down, such as handcuffing a man behind his back around a handrail. Try that on yourself for 18 hours and see if that could get you give answers you may not even have.

That would suck.

 

[palehorse]

I do not believe that stress positions and water-boarding are very common in interrogations. If anything, they are reserved for special prisoners and special circumstances. After all, we dont hand EVERY prisoner over to the CIA, and normal military interrogators are not allowed to do those things.

And if those are the worst that our country uses, then I have no problem with our methods at all.

 

[2Xtreme21]

The point is, it's against the Geneva Convention... and since the US is allowed to break the convention, why can't other countries? And ya know, maybe other countries won't be so "humane" in their torture-- but HEY! The US started it!

Whatever, in Bush's eyes, everyone is guilty until proven innocent... and then they're still guilty anyway, so why bother?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
The point is, it's against the Geneva Convention... and since the US is allowed to break the convention, why can't other countries? And ya know, maybe other countries won't be so "humane" in their torture-- but HEY! The US started it!

Whatever, in Bush's eyes, everyone is guilty until proven innocent... and then they're still guilty anyway, so why bother?

What makes you say that stress positions or waterboarding are against the GC? Please quote the applicable portion(s) of the GC's for me. I dare you.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
People are forced to stand by restraining them in a manor by which they cannot sit down, such as handcuffing a man behind his back around a handrail. Try that on yourself for 18 hours and see if that could get you give answers you may not even have.

So maybe you believe our country is one of the greatest threats and evils in the world?

You must, otherwise you wouldn?t define it as coming after you to do these things to you. That kind of fear has to come from a source.

You?re entirely ignoring that it is NOT happening to you, or Americans. It is happening to enemy combatants who would sooner cut your head off than allow you to speak freely. It is a guarantee that more attacks from them will happen. The only question is when it will happen and if we have the determination to do what is necessary to our enemy to stop them.

As for the subject of what to do about ?torture?. You MUST define it and that?s the entire point of the debate in DC. They do not want room for error so that they can do their job without attacks from the left.

I personally think we should focus on foreign illegality and nationality as a priority, lowering our ability to treat someone harshly until we get down to American citizens who should have full civil rights. It has never been about torturing Americans even though many of you would love to ride that pony to the white house.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Pabster
I don't support physical torture but I do support just about everything else. If it saves a life, I'm all for it.

How about when it costs lives because the "information" given by a tortured captive is false?

How about when it costs more lives by diverting resources from finding and controlling the true source of a threat?

How about when it costs the nation's credibility and support for our causes, even if we happen to be right, because we don't stand up for our own declared moral values?

How about when they torture someone who's innocent? That hasn't been in the news since yesterday, has it?

Markey: Torture of terror suspect ?black eye? for U.S.
By Tyler B. Reed/ MetroWest Daily News
Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - Updated: 01:00 AM EST

U.S. Rep. Edward Markey yesterday called a Canadian report clearing a former Framingham man of being a terrorist ?a black eye for the United States.?

A Canadian judge on Monday ruled Maher Arar, 36, did not have any ties to the terrorist group al-Qaeda, and said Canadian authorities misled American officials into believing Arar was a security threat.

Arar was detained at New York?s John F. Kennedy International Airport in 2002, deported to Syria under the federal government?s ?extraordinary rendition? policy and tortured during interrogation at a Damascus prison.

Arar worked as a telecommunications engineer for MathWorks in Natick while he lived in Framingham. He has so far been unable to find a job in Canada, where he is a citizen.

?Extraordinary rendition is just the outsourcing of torture and this repugnant practice must be stopped,? Markey said.

Reached in Canada, Arar said he was too tired to talk yesterday.

I'll assume you aren't a terrorist, so how would you feel if they happen find some reason to suspect you and haul you away and torture you, or your friend, or your parents, or... ? :shocked:

 

[2Xtreme21]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
The point is, it's against the Geneva Convention... and since the US is allowed to break the convention, why can't other countries? And ya know, maybe other countries won't be so "humane" in their torture-- but HEY! The US started it!

Whatever, in Bush's eyes, everyone is guilty until proven innocent... and then they're still guilty anyway, so why bother?

What makes you say that stress positions or waterboarding are against the GC? Please quote the applicable portion(s) of the GC's for me. I dare you.

Article 17

Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information.

<snip>

No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.

Article 130

Grave breaches to which the preceding Article relates shall be those involving any of the following acts, if committed against persons or property protected by the Convention: wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, compelling a prisoner of war to serve in the forces of the hostile Power, or wilfully depriving a prisoner of war of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed in this Convention.

I mean, like it or not, it's torture and it's forbidden.

 

[Genx87]

Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information.

Indeed, I want to get the rank, and which army terrorists captured on the battlefield belong to.

Because if you did your homework, I dont think wearing civilian clothing, not fighting under a hierarchy of commanders, and not carrying arms in the open, means they arent prisoners of war.

 

[dahunan]

How many did we let go AFTER torturing them ..
How many DIED because we tortured them
How many were kidnapped from their homes and then tortured and later found to have no more knowledge of al-qaeda in Iraq than even bush and cheney did

Whatever ... enjoy your humanity way over here.. just don't complain when it happens to our soldiers GOT IT?

 

[Moonbeam]

There is no question at all that anybody who approves of torture of any kind is a moral leper and emotional pig. No real human being ever tortures another. Torture arises out or the unconscious feeling of self worthlessness, the devaluation of the self to the point of acquiescence to any form of evil. Those who torture do so because their lives are living hell although they are unconscious of this fact. They want others to experience what they are. Self love and torture are incompatible and cannot coexist together. Those who would torture are emotionally dead. The emotionally dead are all around you. They are what most call normal. We hurt others because of our deep unconscious pain.

These facts are unarguable, indisputable, and known to every lover. So sorry you are dead. You may now witness your own hell by attacking me.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
People are forced to stand by restraining them in a manor by which they cannot sit down, such as handcuffing a man behind his back around a handrail. Try that on yourself for 18 hours and see if that could get you give answers you may not even have.

So maybe you believe our country is one of the greatest threats and evils in the world?

That is a huge leap of logic you took there. Rather, simply, I believe the use of inhuman treatment in attempts to extract information people is evil, regardless what any individual might know or may have done. I respect the standards our forefathers derived from the lessons of WW2; and if need be I will rather fight tooth and nail to the most bloody of deaths with armies of absurdly labeled 'islamofascists' or anyone else who might ever try to force me to compromise from the standards which were set forth in our Geneva Conventions.

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
You must, otherwise you wouldn?t define it as coming after you to do these things to you. That kind of fear has to come from a source.

You?re entirely ignoring that it is NOT happening to you,

I see no reason anyone would find cause to inflict such evil on me. However, last time they came for the Jews, and though I'm not Jewish, I do think that shows why it is best we speak up.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
So maybe you believe our country is one of the greatest threats and evils in the world?

No, but I believe our President, his administration and those in Congress who blindly follow them have repeatedly proven they are. :|

 

[Pens1566]

What about the torturing of Abu Zubaydah? He was known to be mentally ill, was tortured anyway, and sent the admin on wild goose chases for months afterward. Plots on shopping malls, apartment complexes, supermarkets, etc.. Really worked, didn't it?

 

[Darkhawk28]

Torture doesn't work except in Hollywood movies.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Pens1566
What about the torturing of Abu Zubaydah? He was known to be mentally ill, was tortured anyway, and sent the admin on wild goose chases for months afterward. Plots on shopping malls, apartment complexes, supermarkets, etc.. Really worked, didn't it?

I am sure for every one of these terrible mistakes, there are 10s, 100s, or maybe 1000s of instances that go the other way.

I dont see why the intelligence community would want to use coercive tactics(not torture) to gain information if it wasnt yielding information. The point is to get information, if making life uncomfortable for somebody doesnt gain information on avg, I dont see why they would bother.

 

[Pens1566]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Pens1566
What about the torturing of Abu Zubaydah? He was known to be mentally ill, was tortured anyway, and sent the admin on wild goose chases for months afterward. Plots on shopping malls, apartment complexes, supermarkets, etc.. Really worked, didn't it?

I am sure for every one of these terrible mistakes, there are 10s, 100s, or maybe 1000s of instances that go the other way.

I dont see why the intelligence community would want to use coercive tactics(not torture) to gain information if it wasnt yielding information. The point is to get information, if making life uncomfortable for somebody doesnt gain information on avg, I dont see why they would bother.

The FBI, interrogators for years, insist that it is counterproductive.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Pens1566

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Pens1566
What about the torturing of Abu Zubaydah? He was known to be mentally ill, was tortured anyway, and sent the admin on wild goose chases for months afterward. Plots on shopping malls, apartment complexes, supermarkets, etc.. Really worked, didn't it?

I am sure for every one of these terrible mistakes, there are 10s, 100s, or maybe 1000s of instances that go the other way.

I dont see why the intelligence community would want to use coercive tactics(not torture) to gain information if it wasnt yielding information. The point is to get information, if making life uncomfortable for somebody doesnt gain information on avg, I dont see why they would bother.

The FBI, interrogators for years, insist that it is counterproductive.

What is, torture? Ok, what about coercive interrogation?
If the FBI doesnt think it is worthy, they are free to not use the outline rules.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont see why the intelligence community would want to use coercive tactics(not torture) to gain information if it wasnt yielding information. The point is to get information, if making life uncomfortable for somebody doesnt gain information on avg, I dont see why they would bother.

Unless you have any hard evidence of this, you're statement is unsubstantiated speculation, and it's contrary to everything I've ever heard, seen or read from those whose job it is to interrogate such captives.

Beyond the fact that people will say anything when tortured, regardless of the facts, we can't defeat any evil by becoming the evil we claim we are trying to defeat. You can't do it and maintain the American standard of civil existence. If you believe otherwise, you may want to go to some country that accepts your premise, and enjoy living under the threat of being falsely accused and tortured.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Pens1566
What about the torturing of Abu Zubaydah? He was known to be mentally ill, was tortured anyway, and sent the admin on wild goose chases for months afterward. Plots on shopping malls, apartment complexes, supermarkets, etc.. Really worked, didn't it?

I am sure for every one of these terrible mistakes, there are 10s, 100s, or maybe 1000s of instances that go the other way.

Surely you are not suggesting that the issues of human dignity and inhuman treatment comes down to a matter of statistics?

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Harvey
I'll assume you aren't a terrorist, so how would you feel if they happen find some reason to suspect you and haul you away and torture you, or your friend, or your parents, or... ? :shocked:

The point is valid, but I'd like to see some hard numbers on how many "mistakes" are made. And not from RawStory or DailyKOS, please.

I suspect that in the big picture it is an extremely small minority. I believe the means justify the ends... Or are you saying if we make one mistake it is too many and we should just drop it altogether? By that logic, none of our surveillance programs and other prevention programs would be able to function, which would be a shame.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Harvey
Beyond the fact that people will say anything when tortured, regardless of the facts, we can't defeat any evil by becoming the evil we claim we are trying to defeat. You can't do it and maintain the American standard of civil existence. If you believe otherwise, you may want to go to some country that accepts your premise, and enjoy living under the threat of being falsely accused and tortured.

I actually agree on all points.

Torture yields nothing but fake information and goose hunts.

Now, that said, I still believe we need to use any and all legal methods to extract vital information and save American lives.

 

[kylebisme]

We have to put ourselves in the position to convince others that we are the good guys, that is the only reasonable way to get people to tell us how to stop the bad guys.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Pabster
The point is valid, but I'd like to see some hard numbers on how many "mistakes" are made. And not from RawStory or DailyKOS, please.

I suspect that in the big picture it is an extremely small minority. I believe the means justify the ends... Or are you saying if we make one mistake it is too many and we should just drop it altogether? By that logic, none of our surveillance programs and other prevention programs would be able to function, which would be a shame.

I think you meant to say, "the ends justify the means, and I disagree 100%. For the same reason our system of laws states that we are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, sacrificing our ethics, morals and humanity by torturing ANY ONE innocent individual is too great a price to pay. We MAY get one useful piece of information from someone under torture, but considering how much BAD info we'd get, how would we know it was valid?

Your statement that ALL legal surveillance and prevention programs could be classified as toture is, itself, a totured conclusion.

You can't defeat evil by becoming the evil you seek to defeat.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont see why the intelligence community would want to use coercive tactics(not torture) to gain information if it wasnt yielding information. The point is to get information, if making life uncomfortable for somebody doesnt gain information on avg, I dont see why they would bother.

Unless you have any hard evidence of this, you're statement is unsubstantiated speculation, and it's contrary to everything I've ever heard, seen or read from those whose job it is to interrogate such captives.

Beyond the fact that people will say anything when tortured, regardless of the facts, we can't defeat any evil by becoming the evil we claim we are trying to defeat. You can't do it and maintain the American standard of civil existence. If you believe otherwise, you may want to go to some country that accepts your premise, and enjoy living under the threat of being falsely accused and tortured.

Tortured yes, coerced I dont think so.

Your idea of torture happens on a daily basis everywhere. I have to listem to loud music when people drive by in the street, oh noes, I am being tortured!

We have to put ourselves in the position to convince others that we are the good guys, that is the only reasonable way to get people to tell us how to stop the bad guys.

I think there is a fine line we can walk. Coerced interrogations but not torture will give us this moral high ground you so desperately want.