A reminder, what is torture?

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Jamie571

Senior member
Nov 7, 2002
267
0
0
My first reaction to torture is how we as an advanced society have to resort to inhumane treatment of a fellow human being.......

Unfortunately that is complete sh!t. Suppose a group of thugs had kidnapped my daughter and suppose one of the thugs was captured. Would I feel the same way about torture, of course not. Abu Graib would be ride in the park what I would do to the captured thug to gain information to save my daughter.

Would you do the same if it was your daughter?
If not, history has a place for you next to the dodo.


 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
81
"Torture is any act by which severe pain, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, deterrence, revenge, punishment, sadism, or information gathering."

Well, based on that definition there are a lot of older brothers who used spiders, bugs, threats of physical pain and the ever popular the fart to the face technique to torture thier little siblings into giving up thier Halloween candy that should be arrested.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
30
86
Originally posted by: Jamie571
Would you do the same if it was your daughter?
Great. If we assume that the objective in any case is the quickest route to useful, truthful information, here are a few questions:

1. Aside from the great momentary rush you'd get from beating the crap out of your perp, what good would it do when he gave you false or misleading evidence just to get you to stop?

2. If he really was a dedicated terrorist, what makes you think any amount of torture would get a truthful, useful answer

3. What would that make you if the guy you were pounding wasn't involved in the crime and knew nothing?

Under those circumstances, if you don't have a really good answer that solves your problem, I suggest it is you who would be the dodo. :thumbsdown: :frown: :thumbsdown:
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,987
1
0
Originally posted by: KlokWyze
I think prisoners were being treated worse than that here. You are fools to think the US military don't regularly torture people. The whole point of not using torture is so neither side will do it to each other if captured.

While I've already stated I do not support torture, let us be realistic here. The terrorists haven't exactly shown themselves to be stewards of the Geneva Convention, or to practice "ethical" interrogation methods. They generally slice the head right off and roll it down the street. Don't be so damn naive.

And they were doing this long before Abu Ghraib.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,681
6,195
126
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: KlokWyze
I think prisoners were being treated worse than that here. You are fools to think the US military don't regularly torture people. The whole point of not using torture is so neither side will do it to each other if captured.

While I've already stated I do not support torture, let us be realistic here. The terrorists haven't exactly shown themselves to be stewards of the Geneva Convention, or to practice "ethical" interrogation methods. They generally slice the head right off and roll it down the street. Don't be so damn naive.

And they were doing this long before Abu Ghraib.

Again: There is no question at all that anybody who approves of torture of any kind is a moral leper and emotional pig. No real human being ever tortures another. Torture arises out or the unconscious feeling of self worthlessness, the devaluation of the self to the point of acquiescence to any form of evil. Those who torture do so because their lives are living hell although they are unconscious of this fact. They want others to experience what they are. Self love and torture are incompatible and cannot coexist together. Those who would torture are emotionally dead. The emotionally dead are all around you. They are what most call normal. We hurt others because of our deep unconscious pain.

These facts are unarguable, indisputable, and known to every lover. So sorry you are dead. You may now witness your own hell by attacking me.

The argument is sophisticated beyond your wildest dreams. You Sir, aren't even in moral kindergarten.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
interesting to see how far this discussion has going

Another thing I would like to point out
"Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion."

Beating someone with electic cables causes severe physical pain
Ripping someones nails of with plyers causes severe physical pain
Forcing someone to stand for hours causes severe physical pain
Forcing someone to stand naked in a cold room for hours causes severe physical pain

The major difference the last two have are only that they dont leave a physical mark like the other ones. So its kinda like thinking its ok to beat your wife and kids with a sack of oranges because it doesnt leave a mark.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
"Torture is any act by which severe pain, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, deterrence, revenge, punishment, sadism, or information gathering."

If that were true, then it would mean that the justice system of every nation on the planet should be shut down. The only thing they are for is deterrance, punishment and information gathering. Open the prison doors boys, we don't want to torture anyone. :roll:
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,127
5,657
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
"Torture is any act by which severe pain, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, deterrence, revenge, punishment, sadism, or information gathering."

If that were true, then it would mean that the justice system of every nation on the planet should be shut down. The only thing they are for is deterrance, punishment and information gathering. Open the prison doors boys, we don't want to torture anyone. :roll:

Every system? I beg to differ.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,681
6,195
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
"Torture is any act by which severe pain, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, deterrence, revenge, punishment, sadism, or information gathering."

If that were true, then it would mean that the justice system of every nation on the planet should be shut down. The only thing they are for is deterrance, punishment and information gathering. Open the prison doors boys, we don't want to torture anyone. :roll:

Your diagnosis is quite correct but against your will so you immediately reach for an absurd conclusion to jar yourself back to a supposed deeper reality. The punishment of prisoners for crimes is just more human sickness, the hate of the conformist who were beaten into line taking it out on those who rebelled against their own beatings. It is one extreme set of the sickest torturing a set of the sick who are their mirror image for psychological gratifications as a substitute for real life, real love, and real understanding.

Prisons are required to prevent the people who feel so worthless that they need to prey on and harm others from doing so, but, although they must be separated from others, the point of prison should always be to reform, not to punish. The more we punish the sicker we all become. It is why all religions teach love. There is no other answer. None.

People do not believe in redemption because inwardly they have condemned themselves. This is why Jesus said something like 'We will know ourselves by how we treat the least among us.'

You are a big ball of righteous indignation, Bober, with nowhere to go. There is only one place to take that rage and it's up on the cross to die. We are all the same.

We can never ever get even. We can only take all our pain in our hands and let it wash away. To forgive is to be forgiven, is to cause God to appear. There are no marks at all on the soul.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: BoberFett
"Torture is any act by which severe pain, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, deterrence, revenge, punishment, sadism, or information gathering."

If that were true, then it would mean that the justice system of every nation on the planet should be shut down. The only thing they are for is deterrance, punishment and information gathering. Open the prison doors boys, we don't want to torture anyone. :roll:

Every system? I beg to differ.
I'd say any prison sentence could be considered severe pain, either physically, psychologically or both. Do you know of a justice system in existence which doesn't use incarceration as a punishment?

Didn't think so. The Wiki definition of torture is far too broad to be useful. Hell, reading some of the bullshit spouted on this forum could be considered torture under that definition.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,987
1
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Didn't think so. The Wiki definition of torture is far too broad to be useful. Hell, reading some of the bullshit spouted on this forum could be considered torture under that definition.

You're right. It's almost as bad as waterboarding at times :laugh:
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
The 'still better than beheaders' argument just doesn't cut if for me.
HA! that's punny!
Well seriously, we can degenerate our morality infinity as long as we base it on the subjective arguments of being 'still better than' the some other people. I quite simply have no interest in corrupting our society in any such manor.

Originally posted by: Jamie571
My first reaction to torture is how we as an advanced society have to resort to inhumane treatment of a fellow human being.......

Unfortunately that is complete sh!t. Suppose a group of thugs had kidnapped my daughter and suppose one of the thugs was captured. Would I feel the same way about torture, of course not. Abu Graib would be ride in the park what I would do to the captured thug to gain information to save my daughter.

Would you do the same if it was your daughter?
If not, history has a place for you next to the dodo.
That is exactly why we created our police forces and the checks and balances of the judiciaries, their sole purpose is to uphold the standards of our society by acting as impartial mediators. If we wanted everyone storming around like vigilantes driven by senseless emotion that shows disrespect for human dignity, then we would never have bothered with our governments and we would simply live in anarchy in a constant downward spiral perpetuated by ignorance and moral relativity.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Didn't think so. The Wiki definition of torture is far too broad to be useful. Hell, reading some of the bullshit spouted on this forum could be considered torture under that definition.

You're right. It's almost as bad as waterboarding at times :laugh:

If you wonder why a lot of people have strong feelings against torture, this is why...the supporters of torture never quite seem to approach it with the same emotional gravity you would expect on such a serious topic, no matter which side of it you are on. Without exception, EVERY person I've heard support what we're doing to our prisoners seems almost gleeful about it, like it makes them personally macho to support things like that. I NEVER hear someone say, "Well, I personally think torture is a very evil thing, but in this case we simply have no choice, it's the best of a lot of bad choices", it's always "Bring out the jumper cables, and give me a go while you're at it!" It's like nothing so much as watching a bunch of 1st graders torment the kid who's different, the sense of morality seems about the same.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
some of you people are CLUELESS.

by that, i mean that you have no business discussing something that you nothing about.

me? i know.

how u like dem apples?

We will ALWAYS have the moral highground, and even more so once Bush gets our authorized interrogation methods down on paper. At that point, you will be able to hold them up against the beheadings and say "gee, we're still better than them."

trust me. i know.

g'day.

morons.

ps: im drunk, and some of u people p*ss me off.

They say drinking just brings out what's really there all the time. If someone is a big asshole when they are drunk, chances are pretty good they are a big asshole in general, they're just better at controlling it most of the time. And let's just say that if you're "military experience" involves anything more complicated than smashing rocks with larger rocks, we are in DEEP trouble if we ever have to fight a real, large scale war. The idea that anyone would put a gun in the hands of someone with the reasoning skills of a 6th grader is pretty scary. Thankfully I've met and worked with a lot of military folks, and people like you are very much the exception.

And here's a tip for you, chief, I think we would do well to aim just a LITTLE bit higher than terrorists on the morality scale. Having the moral high ground only relative to the terrorists is not exactly what I would have in mind as the ideal position for our country to occupy.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
80% of criminal convictions in this country are due to confessions. Police use strict guide-lines during an interrogation to avoid false confessions. Even so, 49% of false convictions are due to false confessions.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,133
219
106
Originally posted by: Pabster
Thanks for your wiki definitions. That clears it right up.

I don't support physical torture but I do support just about everything else. If it saves a life, I'm all for it.


What comes around goes around... May you have good Karma....
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
The thing about morality is that is should NOT be subjective. I thought all you good Christians knew that.

Anyway, since torture always provides completely unreliable results, why do we still do it to get information? I'll tell ya why. People are idiots. And why does Bush & Co. want to expand our 'torture power', when it's proven to be completely useless and ineffectual?

Well. You tell me, moralists of the world.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,198
4
76
It seems so fitting that this administration would try so hard to get practices that are known for being extremely unreliable.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,681
6,195
126
Originally posted by: Strk
It seems so fitting that this administration would try so hard to get practices that are known for being extremely unreliable.

They are TOUGH on TERRORISTS in a country of IMMORAL TERRIFIED COWARDS. Works at the poles.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Originally posted by: Aisengard
The thing about morality is that is should NOT be subjective. I thought all you good Christians knew that.

Anyway, since torture always provides completely unreliable results, why do we still do it to get information? I'll tell ya why. People are idiots. And why does Bush & Co. want to expand our 'torture power', when it's proven to be completely useless and ineffectual?

Well. You tell me, moralists of the world.

Totally not true. Some times it provides good information, some times it provides false information. The problem is taking that information and determining what is true and what is false.

ABC's Brian Ross was on the O'Reilly factor and talked about "water boarding" and such, very interesting interview. Highly recommend it if you want some inside details of the program. Apparently every CIA office who is "qualified" to use "Water Boarding" must go through the procedure himself.

According to Ross some very valuable information was gained this way and some plots were stopped or found out about. Ross also says the program saved lives by reveling a plot to fly a plane into the Library tower in LA.

If you don't like torture come out and say so, but don't pass as gospel the "always provides unreliable results" as 100% truth.

Go head and attack the source as being FOX news, but the real source is ABC's Brian Ross
ABCs Brian Ross on Fox News
Nov 2005 Brian Ross story on Interrogation
According to CIA sources, Ibn al Shaykh al Libbi, after two weeks of enhanced interrogation, made statements that were designed to tell the interrogators what they wanted to hear. Sources say Al Libbi had been subjected to each of the progressively harsher techniques in turn and finally broke after being water boarded and then left to stand naked in his cold cell overnight where he was doused with cold water at regular intervals.

His statements became part of the basis for the Bush administration claims that Iraq trained al Qaeda members to use biochemical weapons. Sources tell ABC that it was later established that al Libbi had no knowledge of such training or weapons and fabricated the statements because he was terrified of further harsh treatment.

"This is the problem with using the waterboard. They get so desperate that they begin telling you what they think you want to hear," one source said.

However, sources said, al Libbi does not appear to have sought to intentionally misinform investigators, as at least one account has stated. The distinction in this murky world is nonetheless an important one. Al Libbi sought to please his investigators, not lead them down a false path, two sources with firsthand knowledge of the statements said.

When properly used, the techniques appear to be closely monitored and are signed off on in writing on a case-by-case, technique-by-technique basis, according to highly placed current and former intelligence officers involved in the program. In this way, they say, enhanced interrogations have been authorized for about a dozen high value al Qaeda targets -- Khalid Sheik Mohammed among them. According to the sources, all of these have confessed, none of them has died, and all of them remain incarcerated.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Genx87
Loud music, sleep deprevation, waterboarding oh noes!

2 of the 3 above were used on United States citizens at Waco under Clinton, oh the horror!

would you want all those three to be common practice by the police in the US ?

It is and I dont see a problem with sleep deprevation or loud music in stand offs or interegations where people's lives are at risk

except of course the fact that such idiotic and offensive methods don't work in producing reliable information
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Aisengard
The thing about morality is that is should NOT be subjective. I thought all you good Christians knew that.

Anyway, since torture always provides completely unreliable results, why do we still do it to get information? I'll tell ya why. People are idiots. And why does Bush & Co. want to expand our 'torture power', when it's proven to be completely useless and ineffectual?

Well. You tell me, moralists of the world.

Totally not true. Some times it provides good information, some times it provides false information. The problem is taking that information and determining what is true and what is false.

ABC's Brian Ross was on the O'Reilly factor and talked about "water boarding" and such, very interesting interview. Highly recommend it if you want some inside details of the program. Apparently every CIA office who is "qualified" to use "Water Boarding" must go through the procedure himself.

According to Ross some very valuable information was gained this way and some plots were stopped or found out about. Ross also says the program saved lives by reveling a plot to fly a plane into the Library tower in LA.

If you don't like torture come out and say so, but don't pass as gospel the "always provides unreliable results" as 100% truth.

Go head and attack the source as being FOX news, but the real source is ABC's Brian Ross
ABCs Brian Ross on Fox News
Nov 2005 Brian Ross story on Interrogation
According to CIA sources, Ibn al Shaykh al Libbi, after two weeks of enhanced interrogation, made statements that were designed to tell the interrogators what they wanted to hear. Sources say Al Libbi had been subjected to each of the progressively harsher techniques in turn and finally broke after being water boarded and then left to stand naked in his cold cell overnight where he was doused with cold water at regular intervals.

His statements became part of the basis for the Bush administration claims that Iraq trained al Qaeda members to use biochemical weapons. Sources tell ABC that it was later established that al Libbi had no knowledge of such training or weapons and fabricated the statements because he was terrified of further harsh treatment.

"This is the problem with using the waterboard. They get so desperate that they begin telling you what they think you want to hear," one source said.

However, sources said, al Libbi does not appear to have sought to intentionally misinform investigators, as at least one account has stated. The distinction in this murky world is nonetheless an important one. Al Libbi sought to please his investigators, not lead them down a false path, two sources with firsthand knowledge of the statements said.

When properly used, the techniques appear to be closely monitored and are signed off on in writing on a case-by-case, technique-by-technique basis, according to highly placed current and former intelligence officers involved in the program. In this way, they say, enhanced interrogations have been authorized for about a dozen high value al Qaeda targets -- Khalid Sheik Mohammed among them. According to the sources, all of these have confessed, none of them has died, and all of them remain incarcerated.

Unreliable means that you don't know if it's true or not.

If it's sometimes true and sometimes false, and you don't know, well that's the definition of unreliable.

Try again.

 
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