A steel pole is built from planet A to planet B one light year away..

totalnoob

Golden Member
Jul 17, 2009
1,389
1
81
Just a thought experiment. Imagine a solid pole of unbreakable, unbendable material was developed between two planets. For reference, think of the pole on an up/down axis and the movement on the left/right axis. Assuming the (immense) mechanical power exists on one end to move the entire pole back and forth a few meters quickly, would this not provide a way to communicate faster than light over long distances?

If not, WTF is happening to the unbendable pole in the process?
 

jdjbuffalo

Senior member
Oct 26, 2000
433
0
0
First off, I don't see how this unbendable pole would work given planetary physics. Nor could I see someone making one object light years long...

I'm not seeing how this would provide FTL communication. How is this any different than a fiber optic cable that connects two routers across the country? Those are limited by the speed of light (they actually only go about 30% the speed of light, IIRC).
 

totalnoob

Golden Member
Jul 17, 2009
1,389
1
81
I know it is impossible (at least for us) to construct such a device...but in theory an advanced civilization might have the materials and technology to do so. By communication, I mean physical communication. There is no sound, electricity, or light travelling through the pole. It itself is the form of communication. Think about it...If an unbendable pole is shifted side to side along the X-axis, the other end should be moving simultaneously. I grant that the energy required to move it would be immense, but in theory this could provide a basic morse code form of communication between two distant points, no?
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,846
13,778
146
Originally posted by: totalnoob
I know it is impossible (at least for us) to construct such a device...but in theory an advanced civilization might have the materials and technology to do so. By communication, I mean physical communication. There is no sound, electricity, or light travelling through the pole. It itself is the form of communication. Think about it...If an unbendable pole is shifted side to side along the X-axis, the other end should be moving simultaneously. I grant that the energy required to move it would be immense, but in theory this could provide a basic morse code form of communication between two distant points, no?

Sure it would because your assumption of an unbendable rod is basically the same as asking, " If I had a communication system that could transmit faster than light could I use it to transmit faster than light?"

If we go back to your steel rod, or any other real material than the answer is no. If you moved the rod that movement has to be transmitted atom by atom at something less than the speed of light.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
The energy required to impart motion to opposite end of the pole would propagate along the pole at light speed, at the absolute fastest. If the pole was 4 light years long the motion imparted on one end of the pole would not reach the other end until 4 years later, at a minimum. btw, there is no such thing as a perfectly rigid material. All materials are formed of atoms/molecules and any external force (energy) applied to atoms in a material is transferred from one atom to the next and does not exceed the speed of light.

The incorrect assumption you are using is that when you push on one end of an object the opposite end moves instantly. It actually doesn't. There is a tiny, imperceptible delay that would be nearly impossible to measure over the short distance. However, if we had a pole 1000 miles long you would be able to observe and measure the delay.

Edit: Paratus beat me to it.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,846
13,778
146
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The energy required to impart motion to opposite end of the pole would propagate along the pole at light speed, at the absolute fastest. If the pole was 4 light years long the motion imparted on one end of the pole would not reach the other end until 4 years later, at a minimum. btw, there is no such thing as a perfectly rigid material. All materials are formed of atoms/molecules and any external force (energy) applied to atoms in a material is transferred from one atom to the next and does not exceed the speed of light.

The incorrect assumption you are using is that when you push on one end of an object the opposite end moves instantly. It actually doesn't. There is a tiny, imperceptible delay that would be nearly impossible to measure over the short distance. However, if we had a pole 1000 miles long you would be able to observe and measure the delay.

Edit: Paratus beat me to it.

It's ok I was oisting at ludicrous speed.
 

totalnoob

Golden Member
Jul 17, 2009
1,389
1
81
Thanks for the answers.. I'm still trying to visualize what the pole would look like. Would a distant "God-like" observer from several light years away see the pole bending at the speed of light as the energy travels along it? It just seems darn weird that you could theoretically move one end of the pole several miles..making crazy loops and figure eight movements while the opposite end remains perfectly stationary, but I guess that really is what would happen..lol, I love physics.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
The pole wouldn't be bending at the speed of light unless you were whipping the initial end around at the speed of light, which would be impossible because mass can't be accelerated to the speed of light.
 

ahurtt

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
4,283
0
0
This is an interesting discussion. . .What if we modify the original scenario a bit. Just imagine you have a nail made out of some fictional material that is completely and totally rigid and cannot be compressed or bent . . .we'll just assume it is indestructible. This nail is 1 light year in length yet it is no heavier than your average roofing nail. What would happen if you place the point of it on a board lying flat on the surface of the earth and took a hammer to the other end of it a light year away and gave the nail an immense whack? How long would it take for the pointy end of the nail to sink into the board as a result of the whack you gave it a light year away?
 

ahurtt

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
4,283
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The pole wouldn't be bending at the speed of light unless you were whipping the initial end around at the speed of light, which would be impossible because mass can't be accelerated to the speed of light.

But wouldn't the movements in one end of the pole propagate instantly to the other end of the pole? Let's say the pole has a fulcrum in the center such that if you move one end down the other end moves up proportionally. Likewise if you move one end of the pole left, the other end moves right. Since the pole is unbendable wouldn't the corresponding movement on the other end be instantaneous?
 

firewolfsm

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2005
1,848
29
91
That is the same question. This nail scenario is exactly the same as the pole. Also, as your proposed material is physically impossible, your question cannot be answered by physics.

To your earlier question, from the point of view of a distant observer, the pole would actually compress to less than its initial length while a compression wave travels along it for at least one year.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Its just like waving one end of a rope and watchign the waves propagate long the rope. A steel rod is much more rigid than a rope, but a force applied to one sned still propagates in the same monor to the other. Think about it like a bunch of pool balls (atoms)in a long line each 1 inch apart, when you hit the first one it will travel an inch then hit the second one, then than one will move an inch and hit the third one etc, the same thing is true for atoms in a solid. Obviously the closer together the balls are (the more dense the material is) then the faster the wave will travel, but it will never travel any faster than the speed of light.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: ahurtt
This is an interesting discussion. . .What if we modify the original scenario a bit. Just imagine you have a nail made out of some fictional material that is completely and totally rigid and cannot be compressed or bent . . .we'll just assume it is indestructible. This nail is 1 light year in length yet it is no heavier than your average roofing nail. What would happen if you place the point of it on a board lying flat on the surface of the earth and took a hammer to the other end of it a light year away and gave the nail an immense whack? How long would it take for the pointy end of the nail to sink into the board as a result of the whack you gave it a light year away?
You're asking the same question under a different scenario but it's still a false proposition just as the original question was because there's no such thing as a perfectly rigid material.

If such a material existed we couldn't answer the question because it would mean that an entirely different set of physics rules would govern the universe.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: ahurtt
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The pole wouldn't be bending at the speed of light unless you were whipping the initial end around at the speed of light, which would be impossible because mass can't be accelerated to the speed of light.

But wouldn't the movements in one end of the pole propagate instantly to the other end of the pole? Let's say the pole has a fulcrum in the center such that if you move one end down the other end moves up proportionally. Likewise if you move one end of the pole left, the other end moves right. Since the pole is unbendable wouldn't the corresponding movement on the other end be instantaneous?
The pole is bendable. Even the hardest materials deform to a certain extent. If you made a pole of diamond it would still deform and that deformation would travel along the pole much like a wave. The rigidity of the material would determine the amplitude of that deformation wave.
 

jdjbuffalo

Senior member
Oct 26, 2000
433
0
0
Paratus and TastesLikeChicken did a good job of following up why this wouldn't work.

Hopefully we will have FTL drives and communications one day (soon, I hope). But right now we don't have any way of even theoretically doing this.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
FWIW, there's an obvious example of something similar to what the OP is proposing. Earthquakes. The waves from an earthquake certainly don't move anywhere near the speed of light. This is very analogous to the super long nail whacked with a hammer proposal.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
We had a thread on this exact same subject some time ago. The propagation of stresses in any object is limited by the speed of sound in said object. The speed of sound is equal to sqrt(g*E/rho), where g is the gravitational constant, E is the elastic modulus, and rho is the density. There is a theoretical upper limit on elastic modulus, which is approximately 1500 GPa, which is the modulus of an atomically perfect carbon nanotube. Thus, there is an upper limit on the speed of sound for any real material with non-zero density. if we could make a carbon nanotube structure with insanely low density (say, 1 kg/m^3, or 0.1% of water), then the speed of sound in the structure would be approximately 1% of the speed of light. Thus, the structure itself cannot transfer stresses, and therefore information, faster than this upper limit.

edit: This assumes that the material is purely linearly elastic. Any real material would undergo viscous losses in the system which would further slow the propagation of stresses.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,320
285
126
This is all a discussion of a more general situation, but distorted by assumptions based on personal observations of bulk "reality" that don't extend to the scale in the original question.

Energy can be input into any material in the form of vibrations. They may be some continuous vibration source (whether containing single or multiple frequencies), or they may be created by a single impact which causes a broad range of frequencies but is not sustained over time. For OP's thought experiment, the material in question is in the form of an extremely long rod.

Every real material we know has elastic properties best modeled in mathematics as a complex number which changes depending on frequency of the mechanical shock wave or vibration traveling through it. The "real" part of that complex number describes the velocity of the wave, which is NEVER infinitely fast. In fact, not surprisingly, the propagation velocity is MUCH slower than light, and even slower than the velocity in air. In OP's experiment, this velocity is what determines how long it will take for the wave inserted at the earth's end of the rod to reach to other end. It will be a VERY long time, MUCH longer than the time for an electromagnetic wave (light) to travel the same distance through a vacuum. The other part of this complex number, the "imaginary" part, describes how the wave amplitude is attenuated as it travels though the medium. That is, some of the energy of the wave is absorbed by the medium itself and NOT transmitted along the rod. Even with a very tiny fraction of attenuation present, the extreme length of that rod means the amplitude that makes it all the way to the other end (and yes, it WILL be greater than zero) will be so small that detecting it will be extremely difficult.

Why should this be? The material we are using may be a pure metal or metallic alloy composed of just metal atoms and their electrons in shells, with some of the outermost electrons so loosely bound to their original hosts that they have enough of their own energy (at ANY temperature greater than absolute zero) to move among the atoms as "free" conduction-band electrons. Or, the material may be composed of other non-metallic molecules in which the electrons are more tightly bound and there are no free electrons in conduction bands. Either way, the molecules or atoms each are at one place in space on average, but they all vibrate around that point slightly, and so do all their neighbors. The vibrational motions of each influences its neighbors, and in this way they all kind of share their energy so that the whole mass of material has an average energy content per atom (or molecule), and some variation (distribution) of energies.

Now, what happens when a mechanical wave or impulse is applied to the molecules (atoms) at one end of the long rod? It increases the natural vibration motion of the atoms at the end in one particular direction, and they move in response. This disturbs them from their former equilibrium point, influencing the immediate neighbors and pushing them from their original positions. A "chain reaction" of movement propagates the wave or motion along the rod. Even if the actions are completely elastic - that is, ALL the energy in the initial impulse is passed on down the rod - the process takes a finite time because the mechanism depends on the speed at which the atoms (or molecules) are naturally moving and colliding (well, not really - more like influencing) with each other. But what happens in reality is that some of these interactions leave a little bit of that initial energy with the current atom - it does NOT all get passed on the the next one. So the current atom is left with slightly more energy than it started out with. At some later point in time it probably will pass this on to another atom nearby in the normal natural "sharing" process, BUT that new receiver will NOT be the one in the direction of the far end of the rod. It will be in some random direction. At a macroscopic level, we observe this increased energy content in the rod as a temperature increase. That is why simply pounding on a piece of metal can heat it. This is the mechanism that produces the reduction in the amplitude of the initial mechanical wave as it travels along the rod - the phenomenon we label attenuation of the wave. It is unavoidable in the real world.

In our own personal experiences of "reality" we do not notice that it takes real time for a whack on the end of a rod even 100 feet long to be felt at the other end. And of course we don't appreciate that the jump of the far end of the rod is just a little less than the jump at the whacked end. So we don't recognize these effects in our reality.

The exact details of the velocity of propagation of a mechanical wave in a solid material, and the magnitude of the attenuation effect, depends on the details of the material from which the rod is formed. That comes down to the natural vibrational energy states of the atoms or molecules in the rod and their own natural vibration frequencies. The result is that the impact of these molecular-level factors varies according to the mis-match between their natural frequencies and the frequency of the mechanical wave being transmitted through the rod. So the process ends up impacting the transmission of that mechanical wave in three ways: it determines the average propagation speed, it determines the attenuation, or reduction in wave amplitude along the rod, and it makes these changes to a different extent for each frequency in the original wave mix. The result at the other end of the rod is that there is a finite "signal" transmission time, it is weak, and its details will be substantially altered by distortion of the original multi-frequency waveform.

Sorry, but trying to escape from the characteristics of wave propagation through space (light) actiually still leaves us with wave propagation of a different kind through a different medium, and the limits on it are more than the limits of light in a vacuum.
 

Paperlantern

Platinum Member
Apr 26, 2003
2,239
6
81
Originally posted by: jdjbuffalo
Paratus and TastesLikeChicken did a good job of following up why this wouldn't work.

Hopefully we will have FTL drives and communications one day (soon, I hope). But right now we don't have any way of even theoretically doing this.

Who said anything about FTL DRIVES... they just said FTL... i smell a BSG fan. =D

So say we all!
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,098
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The energy required to impart motion to opposite end of the pole would propagate along the pole at light speed, at the absolute fastest. If the pole was 4 light years long the motion imparted on one end of the pole would not reach the other end until 4 years later, at a minimum. btw, there is no such thing as a perfectly rigid material. All materials are formed of atoms/molecules and any external force (energy) applied to atoms in a material is transferred from one atom to the next and does not exceed the speed of light.

The incorrect assumption you are using is that when you push on one end of an object the opposite end moves instantly. It actually doesn't. There is a tiny, imperceptible delay that would be nearly impossible to measure over the short distance. However, if we had a pole 1000 miles long you would be able to observe and measure the delay.

Edit: Paratus beat me to it.


Yep. I asked my physics professor this a few years ago and this is the answer he gave me.
 

totalnoob

Golden Member
Jul 17, 2009
1,389
1
81
Originally posted by: Paperdoc
This is all a discussion of a more general situation, but distorted by assumptions based on personal observations of bulk "reality" that don't extend to the scale in the original question.

Energy can be input into any material in the form of vibrations. They may be some continuous vibration source (whether containing single or multiple frequencies), or they may be created by a single impact which causes a broad range of frequencies but is not sustained over time. For OP's thought experiment, the material in question is in the form of an extremely long rod.

Every real material we know has elastic properties best modeled in mathematics as a complex number which changes depending on frequency of the mechanical shock wave or vibration traveling through it. The "real" part of that complex number describes the velocity of the wave, which is NEVER infinitely fast. In fact, not surprisingly, the propagation velocity is MUCH slower than light, and even slower than the velocity in air. In OP's experiment, this velocity is what determines how long it will take for the wave inserted at the earth's end of the rod to reach to other end. It will be a VERY long time, MUCH longer than the time for an electromagnetic wave (light) to travel the same distance through a vacuum. The other part of this complex number, the "imaginary" part, describes how the wave amplitude is attenuated as it travels though the medium. That is, some of the energy of the wave is absorbed by the medium itself and NOT transmitted along the rod. Even with a very tiny fraction of attenuation present, the extreme length of that rod means the amplitude that makes it all the way to the other end (and yes, it WILL be greater than zero) will be so small that detecting it will be extremely difficult.

Why should this be? The material we are using may be a pure metal or metallic alloy composed of just metal atoms and their electrons in shells, with some of the outermost electrons so loosely bound to their original hosts that they have enough of their own energy (at ANY temperature greater than absolute zero) to move among the atoms as "free" conduction-band electrons. Or, the material may be composed of other non-metallic molecules in which the electrons are more tightly bound and there are no free electrons in conduction bands. Either way, the molecules or atoms each are at one place in space on average, but they all vibrate around that point slightly, and so do all their neighbors. The vibrational motions of each influences its neighbors, and in this way they all kind of share their energy so that the whole mass of material has an average energy content per atom (or molecule), and some variation (distribution) of energies.

Now, what happens when a mechanical wave or impulse is applied to the molecules (atoms) at one end of the long rod? It increases the natural vibration motion of the atoms at the end in one particular direction, and they move in response. This disturbs them from their former equilibrium point, influencing the immediate neighbors and pushing them from their original positions. A "chain reaction" of movement propagates the wave or motion along the rod. Even if the actions are completely elastic - that is, ALL the energy in the initial impulse is passed on down the rod - the process takes a finite time because the mechanism depends on the speed at which the atoms (or molecules) are naturally moving and colliding (well, not really - more like influencing) with each other. But what happens in reality is that some of these interactions leave a little bit of that initial energy with the current atom - it does NOT all get passed on the the next one. So the current atom is left with slightly more energy than it started out with. At some later point in time it probably will pass this on to another atom nearby in the normal natural "sharing" process, BUT that new receiver will NOT be the one in the direction of the far end of the rod. It will be in some random direction. At a macroscopic level, we observe this increased energy content in the rod as a temperature increase. That is why simply pounding on a piece of metal can heat it. This is the mechanism that produces the reduction in the amplitude of the initial mechanical wave as it travels along the rod - the phenomenon we label attenuation of the wave. It is unavoidable in the real world.

In our own personal experiences of "reality" we do not notice that it takes real time for a whack on the end of a rod even 100 feet long to be felt at the other end. And of course we don't appreciate that the jump of the far end of the rod is just a little less than the jump at the whacked end. So we don't recognize these effects in our reality.

The exact details of the velocity of propagation of a mechanical wave in a solid material, and the magnitude of the attenuation effect, depends on the details of the material from which the rod is formed. That comes down to the natural vibrational energy states of the atoms or molecules in the rod and their own natural vibration frequencies. The result is that the impact of these molecular-level factors varies according to the mis-match between their natural frequencies and the frequency of the mechanical wave being transmitted through the rod. So the process ends up impacting the transmission of that mechanical wave in three ways: it determines the average propagation speed, it determines the attenuation, or reduction in wave amplitude along the rod, and it makes these changes to a different extent for each frequency in the original wave mix. The result at the other end of the rod is that there is a finite "signal" transmission time, it is weak, and its details will be substantially altered by distortion of the original multi-frequency waveform.

Sorry, but trying to escape from the characteristics of wave propagation through space (light) actiually still leaves us with wave propagation of a different kind through a different medium, and the limits on it are more than the limits of light in a vacuum.

Thanks for the detailed answer. I almost didn't respond since my brain exploded after reading that...but it was interesting. Keep spreadin the knowledge!
 

KIAman

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
3,342
23
81
My wife was able to correctly answer this question using simple logic and common sense and she has no understanding of physics...

Just to beat a dead horse
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
0
0
Originally posted by: Chaotic42
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The energy required to impart motion to opposite end of the pole would propagate along the pole at light speed, at the absolute fastest. If the pole was 4 light years long the motion imparted on one end of the pole would not reach the other end until 4 years later, at a minimum. btw, there is no such thing as a perfectly rigid material. All materials are formed of atoms/molecules and any external force (energy) applied to atoms in a material is transferred from one atom to the next and does not exceed the speed of light.

The incorrect assumption you are using is that when you push on one end of an object the opposite end moves instantly. It actually doesn't. There is a tiny, imperceptible delay that would be nearly impossible to measure over the short distance. However, if we had a pole 1000 miles long you would be able to observe and measure the delay.

Edit: Paratus beat me to it.


Yep. I asked my physics professor this a few years ago and this is the answer he gave me.
Hmmm... it would be the speed of sound in the material. Lightspeed might be the limit, and with the right material, a shock could propagate at near c if the material generated a pulse that cause a gravitational, electrically, or other state change. But nudging it, speed of sound in the material. Then you also have to worry about loss in the system. You might have to move this end a mile to get a .0001mm change at the other end. The matter might just compress to take it up across that distance. There just is not enough unobtanium in the universe to make it work.

And for the record on those unbendable rods... I used to work for my 'brother' who manufactures screws used in plastic injection and extrusion. The screws can be 12-16" in diameter and up to 40' long. The material usually is 40 Rockwell hard before treating. Supported only on the ends, a 40' long, 12" steel rod bends at least 5-6 inches. It is very obvious.

 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
I've never read about this before - is the speed of sound in a solid a constant, regardless of the frequency of the sound?

i.e. in many (most?) mediums, the speed of light isn't the same constant for all frequencies. Hence, we have prisms.
 
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