A steel pole is built from planet A to planet B one light year away..

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bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
81
Paratus and TastesLikeChicken did a good job of following up why this wouldn't work.

Hopefully we will have FTL drives and communications one day (soon, I hope). But right now we don't have any way of even theoretically doing this.

I believe quantum entanglement has shown promise of FTL communication, at least.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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under normal matter a, 100% rigidity would be impossible due to the nature of electrostatic forces and the emptty space between them...

however, theoretically would black hole matter, which is infinitely dense exhibit 100% rigiditiy, and therefore possibly be the only matter capable of transmitting at light speed? consequently, would the speed of sound in a black hole = the speed of light?
Heh. I didn't even notice this thread was still ongoing.

I'd guess that, theoretically, the speed of light has little meaning in a black hole since light would have no speed in black hole physics. In a black hole even light is subject to the massive gravitational forces. Then again, current science really doesn't know the physics of a black hole beyond the event horizon with any certainty or testability so at this point it's pretty much pure speculation what would happen.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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I believe quantum entanglement has shown promise of FTL communication, at least.
In science fiction it has. However, irl it doesn't seem to work that way. While Einstein's "spooky action at a distance" has been proven as fact it hasn't been shown that QE can be used to transmit information at FTL speeds and it seems unlikely to be possible.

The following explains it a bit better:

http://everything2.com/title/Quantum+entanglement+and+faster+than+light+communication
 
May 11, 2008
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I was thinking of this one, but upon further reading it sounds like the promise of FTL communication may be premature...

http://www.scientificamerican.com/b...uantum-weirdnes-wins-again-entangl-2008-08-13

It is just a thought, perhaps it has something to do with this, the group velocity phenomena and the phase velocity of the individual waves :
The group velocity can be much higher. The group velocity of a packet of photons can be higher then the speed the photons themselves travel at. Even higher then light speed if the photons travel at light speed. The problem is that the group velocity can not be used as a medium to transfer data. That is at least the current consensus. The same principle applies to the phase velocity. And there is the point that the photons has to be seen as waves.



There remains, however, some debate about what is the true speed at which information is carried by a light pulse. Traditionally the signal velocity of a light pulse is defined as the speed at which the half peak-intensity point on the rising edge of the waveform travels; in this experiment, this is clearly superluminal. In contrast, some researchers argue that the true speed at which information is carried by a light pulse is not the group velocity of a smooth pulse, but rather the speed at which a sudden step-like feature in the waveform travels, which so far has not been shown to exceed c. Superluminal effects are especially interesting in the case of light pulses consisting of only a few photons, in which it could be argued that the group velocity is the same as the velocity of the individual photons. The type of superluminal behaviour discussed here is also predicted to apply to single photons8, which might have implications for the transmission of quantum information.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/FTL.html

http://www.mathpages.com/HOME/kmath210/kmath210.htm

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v406/n6793/full/406243a0.html
 
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SSJ4Gogeta

Junior Member
Mar 1, 2000
6
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I didn't read every post in the thread, but what some people here seem to be missing is the fact that infinite mechanical rigidity doesn't mean that Lorentz (relativistic) contraction cannot occur.
In mechanical compression the molecules come closer together by moving relative to each other. Infinite mechanical rigidity would mean the molecules can't move relative to each other and so the intermolecular distance can't be altered.

In relativistic contraction, the very notion of length changes according to the reference frame. That is, the molecules (and intermolecular distances, and everything else in motion) themselves become shorter for the observer. Also, different observers can have different length measurements for the same thing.

So, while something can be immune to mechanical compression, it can't be immune to relativistic contraction, which just happens (no force involved or anything, it's just a law of the universe).

See Ehrenfest Paradox:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrenfest_paradox
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
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I have a new paradox. Lets say we manage to flood the universe with water. Then we use Cherenkov radiation to communicate. Have we done the undoable?
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
0
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I have a new paradox. Lets say we manage to flood the universe with water. Then we use Cherenkov radiation to communicate. Have we done the undoable?

Yes, on the first premise.... "flood the universe with water".

So, the next big bang is when we create the H and O to fill the universe.
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
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I didn't read every post in the thread, but what some people here seem to be missing is the fact that infinite mechanical rigidity doesn't mean that Lorentz (relativistic) contraction cannot occur.
In mechanical compression the molecules come closer together by moving relative to each other. Infinite mechanical rigidity would mean the molecules can't move relative to each other and so the intermolecular distance can't be altered.

In relativistic contraction, the very notion of length changes according to the reference frame. That is, the molecules (and intermolecular distances, and everything else in motion) themselves become shorter for the observer. Also, different observers can have different length measurements for the same thing.

So, while something can be immune to mechanical compression, it can't be immune to relativistic contraction, which just happens (no force involved or anything, it's just a law of the universe).

See Ehrenfest Paradox:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrenfest_paradox
reminds me of a homework question in my old physics text...

assume c = 10m/sec, and a person can run 5m/sec, or 0.5c. He carries a pole 10m long and runs at 0.5c (the pole gets shorter) into a barn that's say 9.9m long, and his friends shut the doors behind and in front of him, thus fitting the 10m pole in the 9.9m long barn.

I forget the details, but I think the issue came down to the friends frame of reference being such that it would never work, they couldn't shut the doors correctly. Or something like that...
 

firewolfsm

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2005
1,848
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To the last post, the paradox arises because the relativity of simultaneity was forgotten. The doors were not closed at the same "time" in both reference frames.

To the one before it, the effective speed of light may change in mediums such as water, but photons still move at the constant C between interactions with other particles. It is absorption and reflection which creates and evidently lower C in mediums. The constant C which defined communication speeds and causality is invariable, as far as current physics can infer.
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
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Energy is imparted through a medium as a wave, because materials cannot be perfectly rigid; it's like what happens when you compress a spring and let it go, but on a less perceptible scale. So when you have a 4-light-year-long pole, and you move it longitudinally or transversely, then the wave will travel along the pole at either light-speed, or slower. It will not instantaneously get to the other side.

I'd believe in superluminal speeds than bending the physical shape of reality, somehow creating a stable transport in between, then skipping right through.

If there was a reality fairy-tale scale of 1-10 (1 being possible, 10 impossible), then superluminal is a solid 10 and wormholes are a solid 15.
Do you have an article from a physics journal which says that wormholes are less likely than the impossible?
 
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KIAman

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
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Do you have an article from a physics journal which says that wormholes are less likely than the impossible?

You mean besides the fact that there are experiments already showing FTL effects and while wormholes are still a jumbled mix of theories and mathematics?
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
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You mean besides the fact that there are experiments already showing FTL effects and while wormholes are still a jumbled mix of theories and mathematics?
That just proves that we haven't found out how yet. It doesn't prove that we'll never find out how, nor does it prove that it's impossible.
 

KIAman

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
3,342
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That just proves that we haven't found out how yet. It doesn't prove that we'll never find out how, nor does it prove that it's impossible.

What are you talking about? Put some context to your words. Is the above quote in reference to FTL or wormholes or both? Why is there a burden to prove something is impossible? Watching a little too much Star Trek lately?

I was never disputing that there are things in this world we will eventually know that we currently don't know. I was questioning the validity of a wormhole as a work-around for FTL issues, as brought up in this thread.

My comment about the fairy tale scale you originally quoted was a little sarcastic in meaning that both FTL and wormhole concepts are currently impossible but creating an impossible theoretical concept (aka wormhole) to explain a work around for another impossible concept (FTL) is ludicrous for the topic of this thread.

In the end, who the f*ck cares? The quote you originally posted had the proceeding magical statement "I believe." Something that nobody can dispute other than myself. Why am I writing this response? I don't know, it's a really slow day at work.

 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
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What are you talking about? Put some context to your words. Is the above quote in reference to FTL or wormholes or both? Why is there a burden to prove something is impossible? Watching a little too much Star Trek lately?

I was never disputing that there are things in this world we will eventually know that we currently don't know. I was questioning the validity of a wormhole as a work-around for FTL issues, as brought up in this thread.
Your exact words were "If there was a reality fairy-tale scale of 1-10 (1 being possible, 10 impossible), then superluminal is a solid 10 and wormholes are a solid 15." This kind of piqued my interest. So. Tell me. Do you have any proof that wormholes are less likely than the impossible?

My comment about the fairy tale scale you originally quoted was a little sarcastic in meaning that both FTL and wormhole concepts are currently impossible but creating an impossible theoretical concept (aka wormhole) to explain a work around for another impossible concept (FTL) is ludicrous for the topic of this thread.
But the concept of using a wormhole to travel from point A to point B in a shorter amount of time is not FTL. They're completely separate concepts.

In the end, who the f*ck cares? The quote you originally posted had the proceeding magical statement "I believe." Something that nobody can dispute other than myself. Why am I writing this response? I don't know, it's a really slow day at work.


No, what you wrote was "I'd believe..." Very different to "I believe". So the implication of the statement is that you don't really.
 

KIAman

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
3,342
23
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Make a new topic. Everything I've written was in specific regards to the thread.

You can title it "What is more likely according to what is currently known in theoretical physics; Wormholes or Superluminal Speeds? And why?"

This is actually an interesting topic I'd gladly discuss without further derailing this really cool OP.
 

marsbound2024

Senior member
Aug 14, 2007
259
0
0
I've thought of this myself before. However know that the electron cloud is, well, electromagnetic. Now what do we know about electromagnetic fields? Their "speed" cannot go faster than that of light. Thus, if you think about an atom being pulled forward on one end, the atoms on the other end would have to play catch up as they wait to be pulled by the particles throughout the rod. The fields have to do the tugging as they transfer the energy. Thus, there would be obvious bending if this material was even possible in the first place (making a rod that long and it not collapse under it's own gravity or break in two to begin with, et cetera).
 

earthman

Golden Member
Oct 16, 1999
1,653
0
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I know it is impossible (at least for us) to construct such a device...but in theory an advanced civilization might have the materials and technology to do so. By communication, I mean physical communication. There is no sound, electricity, or light travelling through the pole. It itself is the form of communication. Think about it...If an unbendable pole is shifted side to side along the X-axis, the other end should be moving simultaneously. I grant that the energy required to move it would be immense, but in theory this could provide a basic morse code form of communication between two distant points, no?

The pole itself can't move faster than the speed of light, because the particles it's composed of can't. Aside from the fact that regardless of the force applied the gigantic inertia involved would probably destroy most of the planet before the pole moved. This is aside from the fact that objects of a given substance on a very large scale have very different physics than they do on a small scale. If you had a 4 inch piece of 1/2" steel rod in your hand, you could not bend it, it would seem totally rigid. If you had a piece 10 feet long, you could bend it easily. The question is an oxymoron.
 
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