A T1 at home.

[Zach]

Or more likely garage..

What's it take? A CSU/DSU, router, swtich? No? The thing to get the T1 to the CSU/DSU is supplied at hookup?

 

[ScottMac]

What you will get if you just order a T1, is a "Smart Jack."

From there you need to go to a DSU/CSU, either integral to your router, or as a separate modem-like unit, which would connect to your router (a real router, not a home-comsumer version) via serial cable (V.35 --> router interface).

The big question is, WHERE is the T1 gonna go? You can't just order a one-sided T1. If you want to connect to the Internet, you'll have to provision the T1 through an ISP, so you have somewhere to connect that T1 to. T1's are "point-to-point," and you have to specify both ends.

On the positive side, if you order a T1 through an ISP, they frequently have deals (or demands) to own, monitor/maintain, and install the router on your premises as part of the ongoing service charge.

You'd get a much better deal ordering Frame-Relay (but you still have to work with an ISP), same routers, same deals, usually cheaper than a dedicated P2P T1 Internet circuit.

Good Luck

Scott

 

[Poontos]

ScottMac,


Any idea on the comparison in bandwidth and the max. distance for both, from point to point? And possibly cost?

Thanks.

 

[ScottMac]

I have nothing solid, but my recollection is that Frame Relay is probably 60-70% of the cost of a dedicated T1, maybe cheaper (assuming full 1.5Mbps CIR for the FR).

If you reduce the CIR (Committed Information Rate) to ~256K or 512 or 768...whatever...you also reduce the cost of the Frame relay connection. You still have a 1.5Mbps local access rate, but it assumes (and you pay for) an mean average of the actual bandwidth you use ( a CIR of 256K means that over whatever time period, your average bandwidth utilization is gonna be 256K (of the 1.5Mbps -sorta- available). The agreements also usually specify a "Burst" rate...you can actually get over the CIR (in theory), if you sustain more than CIR utilization, they usually can charge you on a per unit (K/M/MM) basis.

Go to SBC's site, Sprint, WorldCom/UUnet, Earthlink/Mindspring...they all should have some packages and/or guidelines for Ded T1 or FR service.


Good Luck

Scott

 

[Zach]

<< I have nothing solid, but my recollection is that Frame Relay is probably 60-70% of the cost of a dedicated T1, maybe cheaper (assuming full 1.5Mbps CIR for the FR).

If you reduce the CIR (Committed Information Rate) to ~256K or 512 or 768...whatever...you also reduce the cost of the Frame relay connection. You still have a 1.5Mbps local access rate, but it assumes (and you pay for) an mean average of the actual bandwidth you use ( a CIR of 256K means that over whatever time period, your average bandwidth utilization is gonna be 256K (of the 1.5Mbps -sorta- available). The agreements also usually specify a "Burst" rate...you can actually get over the CIR (in theory), if you sustain more than CIR utilization, they usually can charge you on a per unit (K/M/MM) basis.

Go to SBC's site, Sprint, WorldCom/UUnet, Earthlink/Mindspring...they all should have some packages and/or guidelines for Ded T1 or FR service.


Good Luck

Scott >>



Yeah, but frame relays use the same equipment I though, or slight variations. SO I just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything.

FYI, this is all based on my hosting business, and the fact that we'll (future wife and I) be buying a house in a year or two. Seems like a good idea to get my servers out of a co-lo facility and into a well wired garage to me. Given how cheap my co-lo rates and services are, anyway.

 

[ScottMac]

Are you sure you said that right?

You're planning on removing your equipment from a (assuming here...so shoot me) secure facility, with lots of filtered, backed-up power, clean environment, and (presumably) professionally-installed, certified, cabling to an insecure garage with "consumer-grade" power, add-on cabling done by "Ted the Contractor's Wire Guy," and an uncertain environment that's probably not Zoned for commercial use?

Most, if not all, co-lo places I'm aware of have a 7X24 staff, monitoring, disaster plans, emergency power (like, generators)....you really want to take all that on?

Are you nuts?

Never mind...consider it rhetorical.....

Good Luck



Scott

 

[Zach]

<< Are you sure you said that right?

You're planning on removing your equipment from a (assuming here...so shoot me) secure facility, with lots of filtered, backed-up power, clean environment, and (presumably) professionally-installed, certified, cabling to an insecure garage with "consumer-grade" power, add-on cabling done by "Ted the Contractor's Wire Guy," and an uncertain environment that's probably not Zoned for commercial use?

Most, if not all, co-lo places I'm aware of have a 7X24 staff, monitoring, disaster plans, emergency power (like, generators)....you really want to take all that on?

Are you nuts?

Never mind...consider it rhetorical.....

Good Luck



Scott >>



Yes, you don't know everything. Most low end co-lo facilities are just cheap ISP's leasing some shelf space and bandwidth. The place I'm with only notices problems if they happen to be in the basement installing a DSL line. I manage servers at another place that had employees that would unplug servers now and then to see who was messing up the network, lost power, etc. Both places don't really offer UPS or generators, I pay $10/month/server for a hookup to a main UPS at my current place. If they die, I die. No big deal though, if the pipe is down does it matter?

 

[err]

Zach,

I hate to say it but I have to agree with ScottMac.

I know you might have your own reason to host your own servers. However, there are a few concerns that needs to be addressed before you move all your servers to your garage.

1. T-1 can cost anywhere from $ 900 - $2,500 / mo. Is this cheaper than your current co-lo services?
2. Do you have experience setting up high availability and redundant network on your own ? Do you know routing, switching, server management or even firewall management?
3. What are you going to do for power redundancy, network redundancy, battery backup ?
4. Can you setup a secure "garage" environment ?
5. Do you have the heart to monitor your equipments and network uptime 24/7 ?
6. What kind of business are you running? can you afford downtime? is downtime expensive?

To answer your question,

It is easy to setup T-1 at your home. Contact an ISP for instance UUnet, Qwest, Sprint, @Work, or whatever. Make a deal with them that includes a router (Cisco 2600 would be decent). Also ask to include a CSU/DSU on the router.

Your local phone provider will check your wiring to see if you qualify to receive a quality T-1 Service and install a demarc on your site. From there on, you can run a straight through CAT5 to your csu-dsu.

Hope this helps

eRr

 

[Zach]

Yes, thank you guys for answering questions instead of questioning my reasoning.

As for leasing equipment, is it really cose effective? I suppose they'd pay for OS upgrades on the router?

 

[err]

Zach,.

If you have the dough, you can buy it upfront, but if not you can include it in the deal. Those providers gets the router at a huge discount, so it is sometimes hard to beat those prices.

Do whatever fits your needs.

eRr

 

[IaPuP]

You must be burning through a TON of bandwidth to be able to justify the $1500+ per month for a decent T1 line.

I know I can get a few hundred GB per month on a decent (meaning redundant and 24x7 staffed) colo, perhaps even with a decent SLA for *MUCH* less than that and then I don't have the headache of maintaing servers and routers and ugh.

wow.

But if you want to do it and you think you you need 300GB / month of bandwidth and you WANT to administer your own severs, by all means- go for it!

Eric

 

[Zach]

I don't think I'd ever need a full T1.

If I did, it would be too much work to be justified, probably. You never know though.

 

[IaPuP]

Look into the frame relay option.

It will still cost you a pretty penny but COULD beat a colo deal if you get a sweet spot with the phone company

Eric

 

[Zach]

Can frame relay equipment handle T1's as an upgrade path, if I decide to buy it? Multiple T1's?

 

[Nutz]

Most Cisco routers should be able to handle the upgrade just fine (assuming your connecting via Serial ports, a la 2500/2600). I don't know about the DSU/CSU though. Any suggestions?

 

[Goosemaster]

pardon me for asking, but what is your field of business?

If downtime will yeild huge monetary losses, by all means, get a co-lo or a compnay like network solutions if you can afford it. If it is the average small business site, there is also an incentive that you will not be paying for the "full power" of let's say a t1 line, when it would never be used to its full extent. Additionally, with a good company, remote administration is very powerful. Additionally, many of these companys have backbones of oc-3's or more for a competitive price.

Now if you are going to take this project on for yourself, I would recommend a business-class dsl line instead of a t1. Of couse there is a SIGNIFICANT difference to some in reliability trackhistory, but dsl now seems to be a reliable source of data transportation for smallbusinesses. With a T1, you will basically be on your own. From cisco routers to redundancy equipment to 24/7 monitoring to the actual wiring interface where this enviroment will be run off of. With dsl, you save an considerable amount of change that can be spent on other, still necessary equipment. From firewalls to server configurations, you might need a lot of money depending on what it is your business will deal with.

Take into account the costs of the routers, UPSs, wiring, acutal ervers, and monitoring& security, and you will clearly see the pluses of using dsl or a co-ol.

Take into account that we I am not well-informed on what your business deals with, and my aim is to help you, and for small businesses in general, garnering money for the acutual costs of the whole is much better than having a "t1 line."



As i have told many people i know who have small businesses,
make sure you save your money for the actual business, and not the toys

 

[Zach]

<< pardon me for asking, but what is your field of business?

If downtime will yeild huge monetary losses, by all means, get a co-lo or a compnay like network solutions if you can afford it. If it is the average small business site, there is also an incentive that you will not be paying for the "full power" of let's say a t1 line, when it would never be used to its full extent. Additionally, with a good company, remote administration is very powerful. Additionally, many of these companys have backbones of oc-3's or more for a competitive price.

Now if you are going to take this project on for yourself, I would recommend a business-class dsl line instead of a t1. Of couse there is a SIGNIFICANT difference to some in reliability trackhistory, but dsl now seems to be a reliable source of data transportation for smallbusinesses. With a T1, you will basically be on your own. From cisco routers to redundancy equipment to 24/7 monitoring to the actual wiring interface where this enviroment will be run off of. With dsl, you save an considerable amount of change that can be spent on other, still necessary equipment. From firewalls to server configurations, you might need a lot of money depending on what it is your business will deal with.

Take into account the costs of the routers, UPSs, wiring, acutal ervers, and monitoring& security, and you will clearly see the pluses of using dsl or a co-ol.

Take into account that we I am not well-informed on what your business deals with, and my aim is to help you, and for small businesses in general, garnering money for the acutual costs of the whole is much better than having a "t1 line."



As i have told many people i know who have small businesses,
make sure you save your money for the actual business, and not the toys >>



Thank you for not helping. Why should I have to explain everything and get permission to research T1's? Please people, just answer if you know!

 

[BraeBrae]

<< Or more likely garage..
What's it take? A CSU/DSU, router, swtich? No? The thing to get the T1 to the CSU/DSU is supplied at hookup? >>



Zach, keep in mind that unless you are doing mission-critical activities (like lifeline monitoring, real-time telephony/security/etc.), there are more less expensive solutions that you may wish to consider. For suggestions, just ask. As for T-1 service ...

A T-1 denotes the physical layer portion of a signaling known as DS-1. Keep in mind that DS-1 can be De/Muxed into/from 24 DS-0 channels of 64 kilobits per second symmetric capacity. The spec for T-1 service in the field is to have a repeater in place no more than 3,000 feet from the provider location, no more than 3,000 feet from the subscriber (that would be you), and repeaters no more than 6,000 feet from one another. Example: CO<---3000'--->[Repeater]<---6000'--->[Repeater]<---6000'--->[Repeater]<---3000'--->CPE

The idea of the repeater, along with line conditioning, is to insure againat signal degredation over long hauls. Because line conditioning is typically required to mainthain the provider's SLA (Service Level Agreement) and QoS (Qualify of Service), these generate installation costs. Then, there are the costs associated with CSU/DSU and router mentioned by others. Finally, there will be further costs for additional hardware, redundency, secure power supply, etc.

Considering that T-1 service can typically have a monthly service rate of over $800 per month, this most of the time does not include local telco loop charges. By the time you get a guaranteed 1.544Mbps symmtric CBR service to your home you may find yourself broke, or at least unwisely spending money.

If you can try a symmetric form of broadband. Most national ISPs (for instance, Earthlink) may be offering SDSL up to 1.1Mbps for $400 month and no loop charges. This would be a business account and come with basic features such as DNS forwards, MX pointing, IP addresses, etc. But one would not want to consider this if your activities are requiring CBR (Constant bit Rate) data steams, or SLAs better than best effort.

The benefit of considering alternative solutions would be flexibility, affordable redundency (twice the service from two line at the cost of one T-1), availability, etc.

 

[spidey07]

Alright!

Enough already. A T1 is obviously not the right solution for your application. Could you please state your business requirements for an internet connection. Maybe then all these pros on this board can help you. Please take no offense here, these guys do this for a living.

And if my answer offends you then you need:

1) IP network (switches, routers, hosts to control IP services, etc)
2) router
3) means of terminating circuit (CSU or PA in router)
4) Service agreement with ISP to provide internet connectivity
5) Absolutely do not sign up for a point-to-point T1 service, you can't afford it. Do frame-relay and you won't see the difference.

but I'm seeing a T1 as a very poor choice for this application. If you want to do hosting it is MUCH more cost effective to contract a hosting service.

jesus age christ - talk about fitting a square peg into a round hole.

 

[Zach]

Only $800 a month? I was assuming $1200 min?

THe question though, with everyone bringing up DSL, is if it is as good as a T1 as far as uptime is concerned? I mean, disregarding my end. I always imagined DSL as being notorious for downtime, given my own experiance and that you typically deal with two companies (ISP and telco). Can it be "T1 quality" as far as uptime goes? I know they are supposed to be as good for bandwidth.. but that don't matter if you're down.

 

[Tallgeese]

well said, spidey!

Zach, if you want an expert opinion about a WAN circuit, expect that the very FIRST thing any network professional worth their salt will want to do is a rough cost analysis.
It's impossible to discuss the feasibility of someone's plan without knowing what the plan is.

Now, if the business you are planning is a bit, shall we say...interesting...then I can understand your reticence.

If nothing else, a determination as to the cost of, say, an hour of downtime for this business of yours will at least give us a ballpark to work in.

 

[subflava]

<< Only $800 a month? I was assuming $1200 min?

THe question though, with everyone bringing up DSL, is if it is as good as a T1 as far as uptime is concerned? I mean, disregarding my end. I always imagined DSL as being notorious for downtime, given my own experiance and that you typically deal with two companies (ISP and telco). Can it be "T1 quality" as far as uptime goes? I know they are supposed to be as good for bandwidth.. but that don't matter if you're down. >>



A T1 line is definately not as good as a DSL line in terms of "uptime", but that sorta depends on exactly how you define it. DSL and T1 are comparable in reliability once they are both installed and running. Without getting into too much detail, a DSL line is not more prone to "going down" than a T1 line. They both run over copper wires and other equipment and are equally suceptible to weather, equipment failure, and digging equipment. DSL also got off to a bumpy start and a bad name because of the newness of the service. It takes a while for the companies and ISP's to fine tune and improve the install procedures and troubleshooting DSL lines. After the initial learning curve, things become much smoother for the customer. In contrast, I believe T1 lines have been around for decades.

The important difference between the 2 is in the service and support you get when when there is a problem. From the ISP's perspective, it's obviously more important to them to monitor and take more care with a $1400/mo. service as opposed to a $200/mo. service. The telco is also very interested in keeping the T1 line up because they are also making a fat margin from it. When a problem comes up with a T1 line, you will get much more resources thrown at it than with a DSL line. Now whether those resources are properly allocated and whether the techs working on the problem are competent is another matter

So in summary, DSL and T1 are comparable after everything is installed and running fine. However if your line happens to go down, a T1 will get much quicker response and urgency although it doesn't guarantee that the problem will be fixed any quicker.