A teacher, clearly not fit to work with people, sues

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Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,374
12,773
146
However, I am uncomfortable with letting kids going through puberty make life altering decisions at that age. I know that gender changes work better if enacted prior to puberty. But is a kid that isn't deemed responsible enough to drive a car or cast a vote ready to make that choice?
Blocking puberty while the individual matures intellectually is not a permanent life altering decision.
If that were the only thing done, great, no problem.
Point out which was both misinformation and a statement...
Your first comment sounded straight out of some rwnj blog trying to make out like 10 year olds are deciding to have gender change surgery. Then your first reply to brycejones looked as if you were calling doubt on what he truthfully stated.

Maybe I'm the only person who read it that way, but I'd be surprised.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
Your first comment sounded straight out of some rwnj blog trying to make out like 10 year olds are deciding to have gender change surgery. Then your first reply to brycejones looked as if you were calling doubt on what he truthfully stated.

Maybe I'm the only person who read it that way, but I'd be surprised.
What you did in my opinion was read it as if you, knowing what you believe to be more than he, thereby had the right to call him ignorant and unwelcome in the thread without the slightest self awareness that you have no idea the depth to which you might be ignorant on the topic. Personally, I am of the opinion that we know very little about how people arrive at their sexual identity, their sexual orientation, etc.

Also, the irritation with other peoples’ ignorance I find amusing since I, like you, have pointed out reasons for things over and over that are ignored.
 
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Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,374
12,773
146
For the umpteenth time, across numerous forum threads...gender reassignment surgery does NOT happen until they are adults. Now you know. Don't be ignorant on the topic if you're going to discuss it.

Apparently neither of you clowns made it to the end of my very first comment. You both just saw it as an attack, instead of informing him. The frustration was not directed at him, I didn't say HE was the one repeating this misinformation elsewhere, just that it had been happening on a regular basis here lately. Then he dug his heels in on dumb, and there you are to white knight him. GJ, moonie.
 
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Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
1,409
1,655
136
Apparently neither of you clowns made it to the end of my very first comment. You both just saw it as an attack, instead of informing him. The frustration was not directed at him, I didn't say HE was the one repeating this misinformation elsewhere, just that it had been happening on a regular basis here lately. Then he dug his heels in on dumb, and there you are to white knight him. GJ, moonie.

If anything, this is even worse.

In your world, shouild everyone read up on a topic to an undetermined degree (do you yourself take on the burden of deciding what passes as SQEP or are you going to delegate that to a panel of experts you appoint?) before being suitable to raise queries and concerns on the subject?

How would you handle a new piece of research in that given field? Would all posters be kicked off the thread until they produced proof they'd read the journal articles? (Again, vetted by yourself I assume? Sounds like a lot of work just to be sanctimonious if you ask me)


Anyway, I had recalled off the top of my head surgeries happening to kids in their mid-teens; hence raising my concern. A quick double check and yeah, surgery complete by 16 years old. So was that decision made outside the hormonal period of puberty? So who is the ignorant one here?

Anyway, probably doesn't matter, if over the long term, a sizeable proportion of cases were shown to have been the wrong choice a massive stink would have long since been raised by now by thumpers etc wilfully twisting arguments and context to suit their preconceptions..
 
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Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
1,409
1,655
136
So we agree there's no problem? Great.

How is saying that if a previous post's assertions are correct, then all's good - become misinformation?

Anyway, as noted in my previous post to this - I since did a quick double check and there are kids making these decisions and having surgery when they are in the age of puberty. But - as I also commented, my concerns are probably misplaced due to the lack of coverage of bad outcomes from the many self-interest groups who'd love to see said bad outcomes - wouldn't be very "Christian" of them to wish ill on others, but sure when did they ever let a wee thing called morals guide them?

[note, your probably assuming I'm in the USA]
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,552
12,865
136
How is saying that if a previous post's assertions are correct, then all's good - become misinformation?
I don't think I accused you of misinformation?
Anyway, as noted in my previous post to this - I since did a quick double check and there are kids making these decisions and having surgery when they are in the age of puberty. But - as I also commented, my concerns are probably misplaced due to the lack of coverage of bad outcomes from the many self-interest groups who'd love to see said bad outcomes - wouldn't be very "Christian" of them to wish ill on others, but sure when did they ever let a wee thing called morals guide them?

[note, your probably assuming I'm in the USA]
What country is it that they're having it at the age of puberty? There are legitimate physiological concerns about doing it too early, so at least in the US, it's hard to envision a doctor putting themselves at that kind of risk. And, of course, don't mind if I regard your input with skepticism if you don't cite sources.
 

Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
1,409
1,655
136
I don't think I accused you of misinformation?

Ah, sorry, thought you were picking up the baton for Pohemi420

What country is it that they're having it at the age of puberty? There are legitimate physiological concerns about doing it too early, so at least in the US, it's hard to envision a doctor putting themselves at that kind of risk. And, of course, don't mind if I regard your input with skepticism if you don't cite sources.

No probs, a couple of links below:

Spain:

Germany:


I think I might have glanced across this at one point that put it in my head (then forgot)
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,552
12,865
136
Ah, sorry, thought you were picking up the baton for Pohemi420



No probs, a couple of links below:

Spain:

Germany:


I think I might have glanced across this at one point that put it in my head (then forgot)
So, it seems astoundingly rare? Probably not worth making a fuss over, and behaving as though it's a widespread phenomenon, and is just "standard procedure"?
I have heard of that last one, TERFs love to trot it out as an example.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,034
2,613
136
Its not against any christian faith to call someone by the pronoun they wanted. WWJD? Would he sue? Would he fight people? Or would he say something peaceful and loving and move on?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
Apparently neither of you clowns made it to the end of my very first comment. You both just saw it as an attack, instead of informing him. The frustration was not directed at him, I didn't say HE was the one repeating this misinformation elsewhere, just that it had been happening on a regular basis here lately. Then he dug his heels in on dumb, and there you are to white knight him. GJ, moonie.
Wasn't this your first comment?"

"For the umpteenth time, across numerous forum threads...gender reassignment surgery does NOT happen until they are adults. Now you know. Don't be ignorant on the topic if you're going to discuss it. "

This clown, as the only one I can speak for, got to the end of it, even the rolleyes part. You then suggested he not participate in a thread if he were going to be ignorant of the topic while discussing it. Now as a person, myself, who wishes to lessen ignorance as I see it, I thought your statement had a flaw, namely that discussion is a very good way to lessen ignorance.

Osirus then remarked: "Discussion, yes. Proclaiming, no.", a comment which you 'Liked', suggesting to me that you agreed with me on that but really meant that what you saw Atari doing was more proclamation than discussion.

Then Brainonska commented additionally that: "Discussion only works if people are open minded enough to change their views. It seems that some just go from thread to thread continually parroting their ignorance, no matter how many times they get corrected." which you also 'Liked" further indicating what I implied above.

I then indicated a problem I saw with that because the same people making it and 'Liking' it are just as guilty of it as they claim others are, that I have repetitively suggested why people are unaffected by suggestions of where they themselves are ignorant, that they are unconsciously motivated not to know truth from rationalizations. People still want to blame the ignorant for their ignorance when in fact ignorance is universal, that the real truth destroys ego and people believe their ego is the most important thing they have. Wrong, it is a prison. Just the messenger here. We all go from thread to thread ignorant of who we really are, asleep to reality, our view points upside down and backwards.

And why? Pohemi: "Shove your misinformation that you state as fact, jackhole." Not good to denigrate who you are because it adds to the reasons we would not welcome truth, or the truth I see. It is a statement of self hate, that people guilty of truth denial are worthy of contempt when all that is is projection.

Pardon me while I try to inform you of what you don't see just as you tried to inform Atari. It's not that I didn't anticipate how you would react being informed you are a hypocrite or that like you, I would blame you for your ignorance. But the fact of the matter is that if I blame you for your ignorance I will do the same to myself. It would therefore be very stupid of me to blame you even if you can't see it. I am discussing what I see. What you do with it is up to you.

Atari makes some remarks in self defense and you reply:

"Your first comment sounded straight out of some rwnj blog trying to make out like 10 year olds are deciding to have gender change surgery. Then your first reply to brycejones looked as if you were calling doubt on what he truthfully stated.

Maybe I'm the only person who read it that way, but I'd be surprised."

These are assumptions you make. I have no problem with them. We bring to the present what we have experienced in the past. The only issue I have with this is the willingness we bring to the table any nastiness we believe others deserve as a result if we are right. I think we are inwardly self hating and looking for a place to dump it and that doing so is a sin, more harmful than it does good. Naturally the White Knight Moonbeam is going to ride to the rescue. And of course that includes you. Love you.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
First off, I'm not being antagonistic. I am interested in your views, and willing and able to have a civil discussion on the subject. I know that there is a lot of misinformation out there, and it is easy to be misinformed on this subject, and that there is room for genuine disagreement. I believe that most people are genuinely wanting what is best of these kids, and we can discuss how to best accomplish it.

Spain:
This one did have the surgery at age 16, more then 12 years ago.

Germany:

This one did have the surgery at age 16, and is probably a poster child for successful transition.

This person did not have the surgery until they were 19-20. The article is about giving them the hormone blocking drugs at the age of 15.

Overall, 2 people that had the surgery before age 18. Both of them more then 10 years go. Both had major psychological evaluations and a court review before it happened, and both are doing rather well for themselves. Oh, and neither happened in the United States.

I can't even imagine a doctor in the United States doing the surgery on a minor even with the parents consent, even with a court review. I have never heard of it happening, and one of my closest friends is a social worker that works with (and fosters) trans teens. It would just be too risky for the doctor. Not only for liability, but how harshly the public would react.
 
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