A war of self-defense

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Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
It's not based on Biblical territories.

The point was, over history, the land has gone back and forth. Arabs attacked, lost the war, and lost the land with it. It was their own damn fault!

"...they have antagonised the Arabs, who have replied with terrorism..."

By doing what? Existing? Either Israel has a right to exist there or not. Well, do they? It's pretty easy for me to see who is antagonizing who!
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
its VERY TWO SIDED

Yes it is, especially when you use misinformation, lies and distortions to inflame the ?Arab street?. As long as that is done there will be no peace in the Middle East. BTW, nice copy and paste from Zmag. Were you so ashamed of the site that you didn't want to credit it? I don't blame you. I would be ashamed to credit using such a biased and hate-mongering site such as that also.


1947-48: U.S. backs Palestine partition plan. Israel established. U.S. declines to press Israel to allow expelled Palestinians to return.

Yes, the US did support the formation of Israel. Many Arabs supported the Nazis in WWII. Arafat?s uncle the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem worked with Hitler on the final solution to the ?Jewish problem?. The Jews had peacefully tried to buy the land that they wanted. The Arabs started riots and even went so far as to kill other Arabs that dared sell land to the Jews. So yes, the Jews got a homeland. It?s a shame the Arabs attacked them the very next day.

1949: CIA backs military coup deposing elected government of Syria.1
Rathmell, Andrew. "Copeland and Za'im: Re-evaluating the Evidence." Intelligence and National Security 11, no. 1 (Jan. 1996): 89-105.
http://intellit.muskingum.edu/alpha_folder/R_folder/rao-rd.html
This is a succinct presentation of Rathmell's arguments in Secret War in the Middle East (see below) with regard to the coup carried out by Syrian Chief of Staff Col. Husni Zaim on 30 March 1949. The author looks at Miles Copeland's claims that he (and ostensibly the CIA) was behind Zaim's coup. Rathmell concludes that "the evidence now available does not in fact support Copeland's claims"; indeed, "the CIA had at best a peripheral role in Za'im's coup."

1953: CIA helps overthrow the democratically‑elected Mossadeq government in Iran (which had nationalized the British oil company) leading to a quarter‑century of repressive and dictatorial rule by the Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlevi.
That was actually a British plan that the US assisted with. Mossadeq was making friends with the Soveits. When you put many of the actions taken into their cold-war context it explains why they were taken.

1956: U.S. cuts off promised funding for Aswan Dam in Egypt after Egypt receives Eastern bloc arms.
So? The US has the right to support or not support a nation based on who else it is in bed with.

1956: Israel, Britain, and France invade Egypt. U.S. does not support invasion, but the involvement of its NATO allies severely diminishes Washington's reputation in the region.
You left out the small reason of why.
http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa112101b.htm

Negotiations for British withdrawal began in February of 1953, but it was not until July 1954 that agreement was reached. On 19 October, 1954, a treaty ceding the Suez Canal to Egypt was signed which required all British troops to be removed by June 1956. There was still one proviso: the British would be allowed to return to Egypt if they, or any nearby Arab state, were attacked. This condition was imposed as result of Cold War pressures and the British fear of Soviet expansion in the region.
During 1955 General Nasser made several overtures to communist China and USSR, trading cotton for military aid (an estimated $200 million of arms). However, he maintained a public stance that he wanted to follow a non-aligned policy, favouring neither the West or the Soviets. In reaction to increased purchase of arms, especially from Czechoslovakia, both the US and UK stopped their own arms sales to Egypt. Meanwhile, France was angered by Egypt's aid to the growing Algerian national movement (which was fighting for independence). When the US announced its intention to cut funding of the Aswan Dam project, it specifically referred to Egypt's close ties to the USSR.
On the fourth anniversary of the Egyptian Revolution, 26 July 1956, Colonel Nasser announced his intention to nationalise the Suez Canal. Political escalation, including the deportation of two British envoys for spying, resulted in a stalemate. Nasser promised to compensate the Suez Canal shareholders, but refused to accept international control of the canal. Whilst the US, Britain, and France protested to the UN, the USSR sent ship-pilots to aid Egypt. By September, Egypt was in full control of the canal and war was looming.
For the British and French, the Suez Canal represented a vital lifeline to oil supplies. The British premier Anthony Eden considered an immediate attack on Egypt, but was informed by parliament that the country was not prepared for such a military engagement. Eden secretly worked with France and Israel to plan a combined attack against Egypt, concealing his co-operation from both his cabinet and political allies (including the US).

Unfortunately for the three allies, there was widespread condemnation of the invasion. Britain and France were threatened with military reprisals by the USSR, and the US, worried by a potential escalation in the Cold War and an increased involvement by the Soviet Union in Middle East and African affairs, applied heavy political pressure (almost leading to the collapse of the British pound).

I hate when they leave little points like the one above out of the distortions.


1958: U.S. troops land in Lebanon to preserve "stability".

You leave out one small part.
?July 15, 1958 Eisenhower orders U.S. Marines into Lebanon at the request of President Camille Chamoun.?




early 1960s: U.S. unsuccessfully attempts assassination of Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim.
1961: Saudi Arabia sends troops to protect Kuwait from threats by Iraqi Premier General Abdul Karim Qassim.
You?ll have to give more detail on how the US did this. It appears that it was only a Ba?ath party attempt. It does appear that, if true, to be another of those communist/Soviet cold war disputes again.


1963: U.S. supports coup by Iraqi Ba'ath party and reportedly gives them names of communists to murder, which they do with vigor.

Cold War politics again.
1967‑: U.S. blocks any effort in the Security Council to enforce SC Resolution 242, calling for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in the 1967 war.

So?



1970: Civil war between Jordan and PLO. Israel and U.S. discuss intervening on side of Jordan if Syria backs PLO.

Wow, the US discussed helping Jordan against terrorists. Get real.



1972: U.S. blocks Egyptian leader Anwar Sadat's efforts to reach a peace agreement with Israel.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_egypt_peace_1971.php
Five days after Sadat suggested he was ready to make peace with Israel, Mohammed Heikal, a Sadat confidant and editor of the semi-official Al-Ahram, wrote:
 Arab policy at this stage has but two objectives. The first, the elimination of the traces of the 1967 aggression through an Israeli withdrawal from all the territories it occupied that year. The second objective is the elimination of the traces of the 1948 aggression, by the means of the elimination of the State of Israel itself. This is, however, as yet an abstract, undefined objective, and some of us have erred in commencing the latter step before the former.


1973: Airlifted U.S. military aid enables Israel to turn the tide in war with Syria and Egypt.
Israel was an ally. The Soviets air-lifted and supplied even more arms and aid to Syria and Egypt. Why not put the blame on the Soviets?



1973‑75: U.S. supports Kurdish rebels in Iraq. When Iran reaches an agreement with Iraq in 1975 and seals the border, Iraq slaughters Kurds and U.S. denies them refuge. Kissinger secretly explains that "covert action should not be confused with missionary work."4

Are you really blaming the US for Arabs slaughtering Arabs?

1975: U.S. vetoes Security Council resolution condemning Israeli attacks on Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon.
Which camps?



1978‑79: Iranians begin demonstrations against the Shah. U.S. tells Shah it supports him "without reservation" and urges him to act forcefully. Until the last minute, U.S. tries to organize military coup to save the Shah, but to no avail.

Religious fundamentalists Iranians. The world is still having problems with them.



1979‑88: U.S. begins covert aid to Mujahideen in Afghanistan six months before Soviet invasion in Dec. 1979.7 Over the next decade U.S. provides training and more than $3 billion in arms and aid.

Cold war again. Now you seem to be upset that we assisted. The hypocrisy is astounding.



1980‑88: Iran‑Iraq war. When Iraq invades Iran, the U.S. opposes any Security Council action to condemn the invasion. U.S. soon removes Iraq from its list of nations supporting terrorism and allows U.S. arms to be transferred to Iraq. At the same time, U.S. lets Israel provide arms to Iran and in 1985 U.S. provides arms directly (though secretly) to Iran. U.S. provides intelligence information to Iraq. Iraq uses chemical weapons in 1984; U.S. restores diplomatic relations with Iraq. 1987 U.S. sends its navy into the Persian Gulf, taking Iraq's side; an overly‑aggressive U.S. ship shoots down an Iranian civilian airliner, killing 290.

So? You would rather the religious fundies would take over the region?



1981, 1986: U.S. holds military maneuvers off the coast of Libya in waters claimed by Libya with the clear purpose of provoking Qaddafi. In 1981, a Libyan plane fires a missile and U.S. shoots down two Libyan planes. In 1986, Libya fires missiles that land far from any target and U.S. attacks Libyan patrol boats, killing 72, and shore installations. When a bomb goes off in a Berlin nightclub, killing three, the U.S. charges that Qaddafi was behind it (possibly true) and conducts major bombing raids in Libya, killing dozens of civilians, including Qaddafi's adopted daughter.

Libya decided to flaunt every international regulation dealing with territorial waters and declared a range of twelve miles instead of the internationally recognized two miles. The situation with the terrorist government was dealt with.

That's enough to start with. I just got a call to go into work.

I have to wonder if the Arabs were not being lied to and blasted with so much misinformation and distortions what the situation would be in the Middle East.
 

SlowSS

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2002
1,573
1
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
Bush loves to sell tanks, just like his daddy


Yeah, I suppose Clinton didn't sell any arms to the foreign countries.


I have a news for you, nearly every administration have sold/given arms to foreign countries.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
81
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
yep but some are far worse than others

you mean like the Russians selling thier equipment to Iraq AFTER the war started?

AFTER they agreed not to with our pals as the UN?

I can see your point.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
yep but some are far worse than others

Yes, that is true.

Germany's leading role in arming Iraq

"Expurgated portions of Iraq's December 7 report to the UN Security Council show that German firms made up the bulk of suppliers for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. What's galling is that German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and his minions have long known the facts, German intelligence services know them and have loads of information on what Saddam Hussein is hiding, and Schroeder nonetheless plays holier than thou to an easily manipulated, pacifist-inclined domestic audience.

If it's not the height of hypocrisy and opportunism, Schroeder's preemptive "no war. period" stance on Iraq and insistence on a "German Way" (Deutscher Weg) certainly come close. German Way? Haven't we heard that sort of talk before sometime, somewhere? But leave that be. It falls in the same category as Schroeder's former justice minister's comparison of US President George W Bush to Adolf Hitler in last summer's election campaign. Not only Schroeder and that unfortunate lady, but politicians elsewhere are of limited mental accountability when desperate about winning an election, and suffer lapses of speech and memory
..."
 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
0
0
germany is not our freind, never was, sure they pretended to be when the russians were at the back door.
don't buy any german cars people
 

SlowSS

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2002
1,573
1
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
yep but some are far worse than others

Like how so?

It's pretty sad for you to throw out generalizations without any data to back up your claim.
You can't provide any data of exactly what and how much was sold/given to foreign countries by Bush I and II.
All you could come up with "Some are worse than other"...What a pure crab, and it makes you look very foolish.



 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
0
0
Bush 1 sold weapons to Iran, no I am not going to give a linky
bush 1 and 2 sold lots weapons to Eygpt, true so did slick willy, but slick willy somewhat changed the aid away from weapons to education, health
jimmy carter started it with eygpt, but not all those dollars had to be for weapons like the next two presidents wanted it to be.
 

SlowSS

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2002
1,573
1
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
Bush 1 sold weapons to Iran, no I am not going to give a linky
bush 1 and 2 sold lots weapons to Eygpt, true so did slick willy, but slick willy somewhat changed the aid away from weapons to education, health
jimmy carter started it with eygpt, but not all those dollars had to be for weapons like the next two presidents wanted it to be.

Is that best you could do? What weapons did all the presidents sell? Lets see them if you are willing to sling mudd on selected few that you don't like,
why don't you provide specifics as to who sold what and how much to whom, that way it will support your accusations. How do you know clinton and carter's
aid went to education or for good cause? Fact of the matter is YOU DON'T KNOW, you are only making these ridiculous unfounded statements because you
simply don't like Bush I and II.
 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
0
0
your right I don't like the bushes
as for eygpt, I have lived there and I know lots of americans that have lived there for many years
 

SlowSS

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2002
1,573
1
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
your right I don't like the bushes
as for eygpt, I have lived there and I know lots of americans that have lived there for many years

So friggin what! that doesn't make you an expert of anything that is remotely relate to foreign military sales,
and it is obvious that you are just talking out of your ass.
 

SlowSS

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2002
1,573
1
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
you don't know the half of it , LOL what the hell you think I did over there

Based on your post....Not a damn thing because you sound like little kid.
Oh don't try to impress me with BS, because I have to deal with foreign export control
of Military equipment due to my job.

 

SlowSS

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2002
1,573
1
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
ok tell me about all the m1a1 tanks there a building in eygpt right now

So Egypt is building 500+ M1A1 Abrams, so what, there are other countries that has Abrams, so what is your point?

Hey, I'm not the one who is making all kinds of baseless accusations, I don't have to explain anything.
 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
0
0
what are these other countries and how many do they have? I half told ya that above, LOL
you don't know when it started , stopped and restarted, do ya, oh now you will try to figure it out buy searching the net for info
 

SlowSS

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2002
1,573
1
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
what are these other countries and how many do they have? I half told ya that above, LOL
you don't know when it started , stopped and restarted, do ya, oh now you will try to figure it out buy searching the net for info

Lets see you failed to answer my question and yet you want me to answer yours...

Answer this first.

s that best you could do? What weapons did all the presidents sell? Lets see them if you are willing to sling mudd on selected few that you don't like,
why don't you provide specifics as to who sold what and how much to whom, that way it will support your accusations. How do you know clinton and carter's
aid went to education or for good cause? Fact of the matter is YOU DON'T KNOW
 

SlowSS

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2002
1,573
1
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
what are these other countries and how many do they have? I half told ya that above, LOL
you don't know when it started , stopped and restarted, do ya, oh now you will try to figure it out buy searching the net for info

I don't have to do any search, If I don't know then I'll admit to it, unlike you, who continue to throw out bunch of BS.
Oh, you have yet to present any facts or datas...just baseless accusations. :disgust:
 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
0
0
ya
I don't give linkies, or data for the most part, sorry that's the way I am
I am not going to provied data/links for stuff I know without seaching the net for.
 

SlowSS

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2002
1,573
1
0
Originally posted by: HappyGamer2
ya
I don't give linkies, or data for the most part, sorry that's the way I am
I am not going to provied data/links for stuff I know without seaching the net for.

No, fact of the matter is you just don't know and trying to come off as a knowledgeable person which you failed miserably. You are just a troll on a fishing expedition, nothing more.
 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
0
0
ok. sorry your blood pressure is up, just stop responding and take a break, it nothing to get all worked up about
 

Leon

Platinum Member
Nov 14, 1999
2,215
4
81
Eygpt has about 600 M1A1 alone and the that number is increasing

And these tanks would be destoroyed before they reach Israel. Sorry, tanks don't fly, and in the desert they are a perfect target for F15/16's. Egyptian air force (which primarily based on old Soviet MIG's) would be decimated as well.

Israel also have esimated 100-150 nukes, enough to annihilate the whole ME.
 

HappyGamer2

Banned
Jun 12, 2000
1,441
0
0
Egypt has F-16's they have had them for a long time, unsure of the exact year very late 80's or early 90's
I have watched there pilots train many times. true Israel has better air power and better pilots
 
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