A warning against A New American Attack On Iraq

[Zebo]

I guess no one really knows what end game here will be. How radical Iraq can become. How it may embroil other nations. How it may effect our vassals like Saudi and Bahrain. How much death may come. Will they turn attentions to US? And so on. It's a fucked up mess we created with that evil GWB who changed our country and ME forever for the worst it seems. I just wish we could roll back time. Beyond that I still think there is hope with enough security and time to prevent all the uncertainties I listed above however it requires going back in. Have to disagree with Maddow and majority of Americans who are sick and tired of these foolish wars. We broke it we must fix it.

 

[Zorkorist]

Blame America, much?

-John

 

[Zebo]

Blame America, much?

-John

I do. Iraq was prosperous peaceful largely secular nation in 60s 70s and 80s until we systematically destroyed it. First with proxy war on Iran then bombing and starving Clinton did to Invasion with no rebuilding and destruction of all stable institutions. Our Cowboy gets to retire and ride his bike in Texas. Clinton is able to write books. But Iraq is a disaster which will bite us in the ass for decades. Bank on it.

 

[Zorkorist]

lol...

No. You bank on it. You go ahead and cry at perceived injustices America has carried out.

Move to Cuba.

Enjoy Eutopia.

-John

 

[shady28]

This is my problem with Obama. He's too nice. Too controlled. To reluctant to confront his adversaries.

You mean he's a pussy?

And thus you get the McCain's and the john boehner's appearing to gain th high ground with crazed statements and flat out lies. Naturally the news media isn't going to question the accuracy of those statements. And you ask why doesn't Obama tell these schmucks to shove it?

We know, because he's a pussy.

If I were Obama I'd remind john McCain that McCain lost the election.

See previous comments :

And I would add, if McCain wants to suggest another route with Iraq that john can run in 2016 and do it his way.

You do realize the dude is like 80 years old, right?

But until then we are doing to my way.

Getting a bit delusional aren't we, you haven't been elected yet.

I can not imagine our nation if John McCain were president.

I can :

All the times during the last years where Johnny war hawk has insisted we use troups for every world incident.

Sending troupes instead of soldiers is not a bad idea.

I can not imagine stretching our forces so thin that Putin might actually believe he could challenge America by direct conflict. Which would be entirely posdible "if" Johnny war hawk were president.

Of course, with Obama, Putin doesn't have to challenge direct military conflict. He can just outsmart him.

Besides all that, you have to first question McCain's judgment and mental stability. After all it was old Johnny that chose Sarah Palin as his running mate.

Which would you pick. Careful now, your mental stability might be in question here :

That alone brings his mental ability into question.

Seriously?

 

[Jhhnn]

True, some Democrats voted for it, after being told a boatload of lies, misinformation and incorrect propaganda by the administration in power at the time.

How about all the Dems and Repubs that voted against it?

Remember a few things......the then in power administration initially tried to drum up war support by tying Hussein to 9/11. When that began to unravel as untrue, the focus shifted to WMD's.

Remember Rumsfield's "We know where they (WMD's) are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." proclamation?

Guess how many they found?


Ever wonder why George H. Bush didn't complete the Iraq invasion after throwing Iraq troops out of Kuwait? The world certainly was on "our" side in that military action, much more than during GWB's Iraq war.

I tend to believe that GHB knew the ultimate conclusion of throwing out Hussein would be what we have today, the Muslim radicals from elsewhere in the region taking over the country. I think he knew the devil we knew was much more preferable to the unintended consequence of Muslim takeover of Iraq. Too bad GWB never understood that, but of course Rumsfield wanted to "complete" the war GHB didn't, so he got his puppet and did what he wanted.

Removed the only strong moderating force in the Middle East, a force that directly opposed Iran, fought them in a war for 7 years to a standstill...and kept both occupied with each other. True, Hussein wasn't the "nicest" guy on the block, but he certainly wasn't a Muslim sympathizer by any stretch of the imagination.

Too bad GWB refused to look at history or listen to moderating voices within the gov't. and instead just had to essentially open the Middle East up to complete domination by radical Muslims.

And that'll be our legacy, destabilizing the entire region for decades to come. Maybe GWB in his born-again religious fervor thought he was hastening the end times as prophisized in the Bible....seems to be the only decent answer as to why he invaded Iraq so stupidly.

When Iraqi forces were driven out of Kuwait in GW1, many of GHWB's advisors were gung-ho to proceed with full invasion of Iraq. When GHWB reportedly asked "What's the exit strategy?", they had no answer. Years later, the same men acting as GWB's advisors still didn't have an honest answer, but they never cared in the first place or else this is what they wanted all along.

 

[Zorkorist]

You mean he's a pussy?



We know, because he's a pussy.



See previous comments :

You do realize the dude is like 80 years old, right?



Getting a bit delusional aren't we, you haven't been elected yet.



I can :

Sending troupes instead of soldiers is not a bad idea.



Of course, with Obama, Putin doesn't have to challenge direct military conflict. He can just outsmart him.



Which would you pick. Careful now, your mental stability might be in question here :

Seriously?

ROFL!

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

When Iraqi forces were driven out of Kuwait in GW1, many of GHWB's advisors were gung-ho to proceed with full invasion of Iraq. When GHWB reportedly asked "What's the exit strategy?", they had no answer. Years later, the same men acting as GWB's advisors still didn't have an honest answer, but they never cared in the first place or else this is what they wanted all along.

This is ObamaCare.

-John

 

[Zebo]

lol...

No. You bank on it. You go ahead and cry at perceived injustices America has carried out.

Move to Cuba.

Enjoy Eutopia.

-John

Why would I move I live in greatest country. That doesnt mean we dont fuck up and can't be better. Besides I'd move to Canada anyway it's kinda my second home already as much as I hunt and fish there.

 

[Jaskalas]

Reminder to America.

Al Qaeda, Extremist Muslims, attacked us, first.

-John

Then we went and made more of them.

Thanks, Bush!

 

[Harabec]

Stop messing with everything on the planet. When are you going to realize you cannot force cultural change on people? If they wish to evolve, they can, but "fighting for democracy" is just made-up bullshit.

The only thing the ME got from the Iraqi war was instability and death, and it had nothing to do with AQ at the time.

I really don't get why the USA cannot grasp the concept of cultural differences. The world isn't run by the Federation yet, and you're 1 (big, yeah) country among others. If people wish for change, they will ask for help in making it.

P.S After reading the other thread I thought I should add something. Zebo gets it...I think most people who have not been around masses of Muslims will simply not see the issue.
I work daily with a few muslim guys and talking to them privately, it becomes obvious what matters to them and what divides them. Religion, Clan and Family...mostly those. You should see the difference between northern Arab-Israelis and southern (East Jerusalem) ones! Northerns consider themselves as educated and well-mannered and quite dislike their "brother's" behavior.
And this is in almost the same geographical location. Thinking a "War for Freedom" which includes demolishing the current ruling authority and causing countless deaths will somehow change something much more basic is just wrong.

I think the US has a lot to give to the world, but not in this way. Technology, ideas of pluralism and multi-culturalism, a peaceful way of life - isn't it better to be a shining beacon than a military force in the minds of other people?

 

[NTMBK]

Let Iran sort it out. They have a big army, and they won't let ISIS found a new Sunni state.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I work daily with a few muslim guys and talking to them privately, it becomes obvious what matters to them and what divides them. Religion, Clan and Family...mostly those.

Religion, Clan and Family would be the most important things to everyone no?
Unless you have none
Then I can see someone claiming a flag to be the most important thing to them

 

[squarecut1]

Religion, Clan and Family would be the most important things to everyone no?

No not in the western world anymore, generally speaking

 

[Jaskalas]

Religion, Clan and Family would be the most important things to everyone no?
Unless you have none
Then I can see someone claiming a flag to be the most important thing to them

My "flag" is important to me due to the rule of law and Bill of Rights it tries to embody. Though in some regards it is failing now more than ever. Difficult to appreciate the gains we've made getting women and minorities to vote and feel free when our "security" force has gone ape!@#$%.

The Bush era with September 11th, the Patriot Act, and our invasion of Iraq is the clearest sign that we are still just human, driven into primitive behaviors out of fear. Self destructive to the bitter end.

I am shamed that I once counted among those who'd see security at any cost. It defies the very definition of America. It causes us to destroy whole nations. We were supposed to be better than that. All arguments that we can do better, that we can try harder, rest with our "Flag". It calls us to honor the tenants of our founding, to not be the tribal animal trashing everything around him.

We have strayed far, but I still believe in standing for a better America.

 

[Orignal Earl]

No not in the western world anymore, generally speaking

Are you saying you think most people would go against their religious beliefs and family and support whatever their gov is endorsing?

 

[Oldgamer]

@ the OP
The last thing in the world anyone gives two fucks about her opinion is Rachael Maddow.
Let them handle this.

Ummmm... well this very long lengthy thread proves otherwise.

 

[squarecut1]

Are you saying you think most people would go against their religious beliefs and family and support whatever their gov is endorsing?

Religious belief has eroded considerably in the western world. Most people either don't care what is happening anything outside of their immediate concern (like standing in a long line at a grocery store) or just are indoctrinated by the relentless media propoganda

 

[squarecut1]

Most of the Muslims I have known have been decent people. Hard working, truthful, devoted to their families.

The Muslim world is going through a turmoil similar to what Europe went through in the last century. It will be a long and messy process, resulting in much human suffering (as is already the case), but hopefully something good will come out of it eventually.

 

[Orignal Earl]

My "flag" is important to me due to the rule of law and Bill of Rights it tries to embody. Though in some regards it is failing now more than ever. Difficult to appreciate the gains we've made getting women and minorities to vote and feel free when our "security" force has gone ape!@#$%.

The Bush era with September 11th, the Patriot Act, and our invasion of Iraq is the clearest sign that we are still just human, driven into primitive behaviors out of fear. Self destructive to the bitter end.

I am shamed that I once counted among those who'd see security at any cost. It defies the very definition of America. It causes us to destroy whole nations. We were supposed to be better than that. All arguments that we can do better, that we can try harder, rest with our "Flag". It calls us to honor the tenants of our founding, to not be the tribal animal trashing everything around him.

We have strayed far, but I still believe in standing for a better America.

Sounds like you belong to the Libertarian Clan then

 

[Orignal Earl]

Religious belief has eroded considerably in the western world. Most people either don't care what is happening anything outside of their immediate concern (like standing in a long line at a grocery store) or just are indoctrinated by the relentless media propoganda

My immediate concern would be my family, same with everybody I know
Wherever your from, if people care more about long lines in grocery stores that is something entirely foreign to me

 

[xj0hnx]

told them that the others were out to destroy them.

They didn't have to be told, there is, and has been a deep seeded hatred among the different factions in Iraq since long before anyone living nowadays was born.

 

[phillyTIM]

Past efforts have only made it worse, not better. More of the same will only beget more of the same.

Exactly right. The most US should do is diplomatically pressure Maliki to be inclusive of the Sunnies in Iraq's government; he's treated them like dogs, cleansing his government of them. No freakin' wonder they are coming back to attack Iraq, they ruled it for the past 3 centuries and have not been given the chance to participate in Iraq's puppet government.

No US military involvement should occur, outside of protecting our embassies; period.

 

[Nebor]

Iraq will destabilize the entire region and serve as a training base for international terrorism if left unmolested.

 

[phillyTIM]

Hey Nebor - 2003 is calling and it wants its Bush/Cheney fear-mongering propaganda back.

This is 2014, where we've learned the lesson of what happens with interfering with Iraq and how many lives were lost because of that (both Iraqi, US and foreign).

We also know that the entire middle east is destabilized in varying ways at any given time. That's just the nature of that beast.