A warning to prospective 7850 owners

[Ferzerp]

It's all about the kind of air mover. What you've linked is a traditional fan which blows air front to back. What you typically see on the end mounted systems are blowers. They take air in (in the center of the "fan" part, from the opening you see in the card, and blow it out radially. Usually they're shrouded along the back to push air in one direction (across the components and out the case). For a blower, it makes sense to mount at the end, and send air across the whole card out the back. Since a fan is blowing air down on the card (as opposed to across the card like a blower will), it needs to be in the center so that it can spread both directions. You can't really duct a fan blowing down to make a 90 degree turn and have enough force to move a large amount of constrained air across the length of the card and out the back. However, for the blower, this is perfect because the air is propelled parallel to the card anyway, not perpendicular (and then bounced off) like it is with a fan.

 

[SickBeast]

That's very deceptive to have two reference designs IMO. I was expecting my temps to be 25C lower under load.

 

[Don Karnage]

I thought you bought an Arctic Twin Turbo II for it

 

[MisterMac]

SickBeast:
sticking a reference card from one of the "lesser" partners, and expecting temps/cooling of the Asus DirectCU or Sapphire nonreference model isn't that.... borderline naive?


HIS & Powercolour and known to skimp on shit, unless you get a major price advantage you stay away from em.

 

[tigersty1e]

what voltage controllers model is on your card?

 

[blastingcap]

It's not brand it's design. HIS's IceQ Turbo design is actually pretty good though it takes up 3 slots. Whereas Sapphire's center-mounted 7950 reference-ish design sucks just like everyone else's center-mounted reference design. (Yes I know it's axial vs radial but if I say center-mounted reference everybody knows what I am talking about.)

This is why you should read reviews of the specific card you are considering, since there is so much variation out there even for the same GPU and even between "A reference" and "B reference" cards.'

By the way the cheaper, crappier "B reference" designs are the result of cardmakers lobbying for cheaper designs to sell. They use a lot less machined metal and are much cheaper to make than the end-fan "A reference" designs which are actually pretty decent except for noise. The A reference designs are also better if you're stacking them next to each other for crossfire, as they eject heat out of the case instead of swirling it all over the place.

 

[SickBeast]

SickBeast:
sticking a reference card from one of the "lesser" partners, and expecting temps/cooling of the Asus DirectCU or Sapphire nonreference model isn't that.... borderline naive?


HIS & Powercolour and known to skimp on shit, unless you get a major price advantage you stay away from em.

What are you talking about? The Anandtech review had the temps at 60C or so IIRC, and I thought that they used a reference card. I thought my card was reference as well. I wasn't expecting uber-temps, but I certainly wasn't expecting 85C under load as none of the reviews showed temps that high.

 

[SickBeast]

Here you go, MisterMac, this is what I was expecting:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5625/...-7850-review-rounding-out-southern-islands/18

62C under full load overclocked. Mine is 85C. Big difference. It's deceptive for there to be two types of "reference" cards IMO. Either AMD or Powercolor is at fault.

 

[blastingcap]

Here you go, MisterMac, this is what I was expecting:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5625/...-7850-review-rounding-out-southern-islands/18

62C under full load overclocked. Mine is 85C. Big difference. It's deceptive for there to be two types of "reference" cards IMO. Either AMD or Powercolor is at fault.

Read the second paragraph http://www.anandtech.com/show/5625/...d-7850-review-rounding-out-southern-islands/2

Especially this part: " Consequently our 7850 has very little in common with retail 7850s when it comes to their construction."

By the way this has happened for many AMD launches already, and in the words of HWC: http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...2165-amd-radeon-hd-7870-hd-7850-review-6.html it's because of condensed timeframes. AMD builds prototype "A reference" cards for reviewers and you can often buy the "A reference" cards at launch until they run out of supply, at which point the "B reference" cards take over. As a general rule of thumb, I always look at photos of specific cards and what they look like under the hood. That's why I went with the Sapphire 6850, for instance; it has a beefy heatsink/fan combo that runs the entire length of the card. Compare that with some of its rivals like the crappy HIS cooler: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?261174-OCed-6850-vs-OCed-6870

 

[Contra9]

I question the long-term viability of these cards when running some of the clocks and volts that people have them at. The cards, even the non-reference high-end ones like the Asus DC models, only have 1 6-pin pci connector. The power delivery systems of these cards do not seem to be beefy enough to handle 7870 performance, there is a reason that model has 2 6-pin connectors.

If someone is a overclocker who likes to push hardware and doesn't mind a hardware death, then it is not a big deal. But posters are telling people that the high clocks are guaranteed and extra voltage won't hurt. I worry that a lot of budget minded users will be let down and possibly be out a videocard.

 

[Tempered81]

Hey Sickbeast, I saw your post at OCUK forums regarding the voltage control being stuck at 1220mv. It sounds like you have a bad installation of drivers & overclocking software (which is not difficult with AMD). ATIMAN will uninstall most of it for you. Lots of 7850s are out there running at 1300mv with a dynamic range of adjustable voltages.

 

[blanketyblank]

Here you go, MisterMac, this is what I was expecting:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5625/...-7850-review-rounding-out-southern-islands/18

62C under full load overclocked. Mine is 85C. Big difference. It's deceptive for there to be two types of "reference" cards IMO. Either AMD or Powercolor is at fault.

There's also a question of ambient temperature to consider, and it is always possible that your chip happens to run hotter or require more voltage assuming the cards are both the same in materials. The second one reinforces your point that not all cards are great overclockers, but I think that will always be true.

 

[blastingcap]

I question the long-term viability of these cards when running some of the clocks and volts that people have them at. The cards, even the non-reference high-end ones like the Asus DC models, only have 1 6-pin pci connector. The power delivery systems of these cards do not seem to be beefy enough to handle 7870 performance, there is a reason that model has 2 6-pin connectors.

If someone is a overclocker who likes to push hardware and doesn't mind a hardware death, then it is not a big deal. But posters are telling people that the high clocks are guaranteed and extra voltage won't hurt. I worry that a lot of budget minded users will be let down and possibly be out a videocard.

Someone on here said they asked Sapphire what the max safe voltage was. They said anything under 1.25V. Something like 1.24V and 1200 core clocks should be fine. You can theoretically draw more than 150W for the card, sort of like how the 5970 was a 300W TDP card in name only. It will just run out-of-PCIe spec.

Even if you were a stickler for remaining within PCIe spec, the average sustained gaming load on a 7850 is about 87W according to TPU (peaking in the mid-upper 90s) so that leaves something like 63W more for ov/oc'ing on a sustained basis. http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_7850_HD_7870/24.html

 

[Contra9]

Someone on here said they asked Sapphire what the max safe voltage was. They said anything under 1.25V. Something like 1.24V and 1200 core clocks should be fine. You can theoretically draw more than 150W for the card, sort of like how the 5970 was a 300W TDP card in name only. It will just run out-of-PCIe spec.

Even if you were a stickler for remaining within PCIe spec, the average sustained gaming load on a 7850 is about 87W according to TPU (peaking in the mid-upper 90s) so that leaves something like 63W more for ov/oc'ing on a sustained basis. http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_7850_HD_7870/24.html

But what model was Sapphire referring to? Does it apply to all 7850's? They might have improved on the power components, so it worries me that people apply that statement to all 7850's. One can run their components out of spec and not have a problem, but others will have dead parts. I just want people aware of both sides.

The power figures in that link are for a reference model, one that looks exactly like the 7870 minus a few components so I don't know how typical it is of other models. I'm not an expert, but doesn't wattage increase a lot when voltage is increased, not linearly. Reference power use isn't necessarily indicative of highly overclocked card.

Like I said, I am mainly just playing skeptic in regards to the flood of recommendations to users to buy the 7850 and clock it as high they can. At stock the 7850's don't represent a good value for the average gamer, but are constantly recommended along with overclocking them to unrealistic levels IMO.

 

[blastingcap]

But what model was Sapphire referring to? Does it apply to all 7850's? They might have improved on the power components, so it worries me that people apply that statement to all 7850's. One can run their components out of spec and not have a problem, but others will have dead parts. I just want people aware of both sides.

The power figures in that link are for a reference model, one that looks exactly like the 7870 minus a few components so I don't know how typical it is of other models. I'm not an expert, but doesn't wattage increase a lot when voltage is increased, not linearly. Reference power use isn't necessarily indicative of highly overclocked card.

Like I said, I am mainly just playing skeptic in regards to the flood of recommendations to users to buy the 7850 and clock it as high they can. At stock the 7850's don't represent a good value for the average gamer, but are constantly recommended along with overclocking them to unrealistic levels IMO.

Probably to their dual fan version.

7850 is woefully underclocked at stock; it's artificially clocked so low not because of physics but because of marketing--else who would buy a 7870? (And in fact, people who know how to OC probably don't consider the 7870.)

Even the worst 7850 should be able to clock to at LEAST the 1050MHz cap imposed by Catalyst Control Center. So if you are really that worried, then stop at something like 1050/1400 and stock voltage or 75 degrees C, whichever comes first. You will be fine. Overvolting (OV) is what may prematurely wear down a GPU. OC'ing won't unless it's due to a secondary effect like too-high temperatures, but 1050MHz isn't too much, even for the crappier cooling solutions.

There are some people on here who keep saying the 7850 can clock to 1.3Ghz @ 1.3V or whatever, but at the expense of heat and fan noise and extra wear from the voltage. I don't think that's a good recommendation; I like to keep things at stock voltage or lower which will probably limit you to something more like 1050-1125MHz core at stock voltage.

 

[Stuka87]

First off, I would not consider PowerColor to be bottom of the barrel. They use the same factory as Sapphire, I have owned multiple PowerColor cards and never had a single failure.

Second, if you were intent on over clocking the card, WHY DID YOU BUY ONE WITH A SINGLE FAN COOLER?! I mean seriously, its common knowledge that the single fan coolers run hot and loud. This is not news by any means.

Am I the only one that doesn't see any merit in this whole thread? If I was PowerColor I would lock down the voltage on single fan cards as well. The cooler isn't designed to deal with the heat. Thats why there are dual fan setups out there. Not to mention that complaining about the card running hot when it is clocked nearly 200MHz over stock is not a valid complaint IMHO.

 

[SickBeast]

Read the second paragraph http://www.anandtech.com/show/5625/...d-7850-review-rounding-out-southern-islands/2

Especially this part: " Consequently our 7850 has very little in common with retail 7850s when it comes to their construction."

Yes, and there is a big picture of my exact graphics card, and it says beneath it:

The Radeon HD 7850 Reference Design - Only Sampled To Partners

I'm sure you can see that it would have been easy for me to believe that the card I was getting would have the nice temps that Anandtech had in their review.

 

[SickBeast]

Second, if you were intent on over clocking the card, WHY DID YOU BUY ONE WITH A SINGLE FAN COOLER?! I mean seriously, its common knowledge that the single fan coolers run hot and loud. This is not new by any means.

Because I was under the impression that even the reference cards ran at 62C under full load overclocked. I thought that heat was not an issue at all with these new 28nm chips.

I got the card for $230 shipped. The low price was the main factor behind my decision.

 

[blastingcap]

Yes, and there is a big picture of my exact graphics card, and it says beneath it:


I'm sure you can see that it would have been easy for me to believe that the card I was getting would have the nice temps that Anandtech had in their review.
[/I]

Anandtech's review literally pointed out the distinction. And even the caption is a reminder that AT is not a partner. Powercolor, Sapphire, etc. are partners.

 

[SickBeast]

Hey Sickbeast, I saw your post at OCUK forums regarding the voltage control being stuck at 1220mv. It sounds like you have a bad installation of drivers & overclocking software (which is not difficult with AMD). ATIMAN will uninstall most of it for you. Lots of 7850s are out there running at 1300mv with a dynamic range of adjustable voltages.

Thanks for that, I will give it a go.

 

[3DVagabond]

Well, I can see why they've locked down the voltage. I'm hitting 85C under load at stock volts. 1.3v would probably kill the card with stock cooling.

I have aftermarket cooling on the way, though.

I'm holding out hope for a bios mod down the line, and perhaps better overclocking tools.

If the voltage control chips don't offer adjust ability, then there's nothing a different bios can do about it.

 

[SickBeast]

Anandtech's review literally pointed out the distinction. And even the caption is a reminder that AT is not a partner. Powercolor, Sapphire, etc. are partners.

That's fair, but most people just look at the graphs and read the conclusion. I admit that's what I do most of the time. I prefer to make my own interpretation of the data.

 

[3DVagabond]

First off, I would no consider PowerColor to be bottom of the barrel. They use the same factory as Sapphire, I have owned multi PowerColor cards and never had a single failure.

Second, if you were intent on over clocking the card, WHY DID YOU BUY ONE WITH A SINGLE FAN COOLER?! I mean seriously, its common knowledge that the single fan coolers run hot and loud. This is not new by any means.

Am I the only one that doesn't see any merit in this whole thread? If I was PowerColor I would lock down the voltage on single fan cards as well. The cooler isn't designed to deal with the heat. Thats why there are dual fan setups out there. Not to mention that complaining about the card running hot when it is clocked nearly 200MHz over stock is not a valid complaint IMHO.

^This. OP should have gotten the DCII or equivalent.

I see the point of "informing" others that if you plan on wringing the most out of your 7850 don't make the mistake of buying the cheapest card you can find. Acting like there's some conspiracy and dragging Power Color's name through the mud is wrong though. The card does exactly what it was designed to do.

I wouldn't recommend the 7950 reference model either. These are cards that are made from salvaged/lower bin parts. They are typically better bang/$ than the XT versions (7970/7870). Something's got to give somewhere. There's no free lunches.

 

[SickBeast]

I'm not trying to drag Powercolor's name through the mud. I'm simply not happy with my card.

Yes, I should have gotten the Asus card. I realize that now fully.

Even after sweeping my drivers I still can't adjust the voltage. I really hope the card isn't hard locked.

 

[Rambusted]

A couple times in this thread people have mentioned that review samples seem to run cooler than the retail cards. I have a 2 month old XFX 6870 with a single fan right in the middle of the card that runs quite a bit hotter than I expected. I am only driving an lcd tv @ 1360*768 and have seen it go into the high 80's on bad company 2 single player The card handles the game flawlessly at that res of course but that seems too hot for a card that draws as little power as the 6870. I am now using a custom fan profile with afterburner that seems to help some but I am just not buying the numbers that review sites put up for cards. The cards are cherry picked and the setups are optimal, real world situations seem to be much harsher. I know I am not happy and wish I had bought the twin frozr for an extra 20$.