A64 vs p4

[Goi]

Originally posted by: Kailurisu
So browsing newegg real quick this is what i would get going with AMD.

A64 3000+ on an Asus k8n-e deluxe, with 2 512mbs of Corsair 3200 DDR, and a Nvidia 6800 GT.

Would this be a good plan?

Plus any ATX case works right? or what?

I have this case picked out.

any recomendations, this plus the DVD-rom i want adds up to about 1016 before shipping?

Also whose a good brand to buy the nvidia card from? i got XFX picked out ATM.

Enermax makes great power supplies and ok cases. However, that Enermax case you picked out doesn't come with an Enermax PSU, but rather a dinky one, so I'd say get a better PSU.

 

[tokath]

well at the shop i work at we have had 0 athlon 64s come back that were really dead, weve only had a few boards that have come back with issues also. right now we're selling more athlons 64s then p4s but when intel releases their new loner chips motherboard sales will probably even up a little

 

[Mik3y]

Originally posted by: Goi

Originally posted by: Kailurisu
So browsing newegg real quick this is what i would get going with AMD.

A64 3000+ on an Asus k8n-e deluxe, with 2 512mbs of Corsair 3200 DDR, and a Nvidia 6800 GT.

Would this be a good plan?

Plus any ATX case works right? or what?

I have this case picked out.

any recomendations, this plus the DVD-rom i want adds up to about 1016 before shipping?

Also whose a good brand to buy the nvidia card from? i got XFX picked out ATM.

Enermax makes great power supplies and ok cases. However, that Enermax case you picked out doesn't come with an Enermax PSU, but rather a dinky one, so I'd say get a better PSU.

wow, are u serious? an enermax cases that doesnt come with an enermax psu? that is so weird. i've never bought an enermax case before, but i've always expected for them to be quality all in all like antec. still, they make some of the best psu's out there.

 

[Adn4n]

Get the Clawhammer 3200+ instead of the Newcastle 3000+. They're both 2.0ghz but Claw has 1mb cache. If you're going to overclock your Athlon, then you're going to need better ram than 3200. The multiplier is top-locked at 10, unlike on the prescotts from Intel. Thus you'll need higher ram, I'd go with at least PC 3500. I got mine at newegg for $200 (OCZ brand), they run perfectly.

As for the vidoe card. Sure it's good. But you could simply buy a 9800 pro 256mb/bit with the 360 core and flash it to a 9800xt. This would save you several bucks.

Originally posted by: BDSM
Personally my experience is that Intel has more balanced and refined chipsets than do AMD.

My most recent experience with this was with a P4C 3.2 ghz, an abit IC7G mobo and a Creative Audigy 2 ZS soundcard. I upgraded from An Athlon XP, Abit NF7-S 2.0 Mobo and I used internal Soundstorm Audio on that.

I installed Xp on my new system and everything just worked great with no problems at all!
The AMD system I never got to work properly. It was years of different troubles with:

1. Crackling sound in games. (yes I tried all available drivers and yes I had cooling on the SB)

2. Choppy audio playback when I used the keyboard. This can be fixed by disabling APIC mode.

3. Choppy Divx playback. Yes I know many out there have great playback with this setup. Or at least you think you do.

4. The Nvidia sw ide driver.. Well.. I don't think I even need to comment on this.

5. The ethernet driver.. Well. for some reason recent revisions hog a few % cpu power and makes the system "unsmooth".


OK. I probably had even more problems but there are the main ones and they are important because this is the main platform for the athlon xp for enthusiasts and the problems haven't really been resolved over this all time so I'm guesing they are design flaws, not just bad drivers.

If you don't believe me just visit nforcershq's forums and take a peak. Also ask yourself why there are gazillions of different "remixes" of Nvidia drivers outhtere!

Ofcourse maybe the nforce 3 for Amd64 is much improved and these problems are no longer present but I couldn't take that chance when I upgraded so I went with Intel even though I knew Amd had a performance advantage now. My dad got a p4 a few months ago and it works problem free so I knew if I got a similar system it would work great for me too.

And it did.

Maybe VIA's AMd chipsets are better. They weren't in the Kt133 to kt333 days though in my experience.

For me performance is important yes but stability and compatibility are ten times more important.
What's the use of going somewhere fast if you're never gonna get there and the ride is bumpy as hell?

Surely lots of ppl are going to say that their AMD systems really do work without hassle and maybe they are right. But to you who are choosing a new system it would probably be a good idea to actively study different support forums to find out what problems may plague your new and shiny system.


ps.. To all the amd fans that are likely to attack me now: I have experience with the nforce 2 and via kt333 platforms ONLY. Before you say anything about them read what my problems were.

You can't possibly compare the Athlon XP to the Athlon 64. A 3.2 Ghz Prescott will outperform the Athlon XP, but it is miles behind the 64.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: Adn4n
Get the Clawhammer 3200+ instead of the Newcastle 3000+. They're both 2.0ghz but Claw has 1mb cache. If you're going to overclock your Athlon, then you're going to need better ram than 3200. The multiplier is top-locked at 10, unlike on the prescotts from Intel. Thus you'll need higher ram, I'd go with at least PC 3500. I got mine at newegg for $200 (OCZ brand), they run perfectly.

As for the vidoe card. Sure it's good. But you could simply buy a 9800 pro 256mb/bit with the 360 core and flash it to a 9800xt. This would save you several bucks.

the 1 meg cache does jacksh!t, especially for the price increase. sorry to inform you....

also, the 6800GT completely owns the 9800XT. its well worth the money spent IMO.

 

[Adn4n]

When I got my 3200 the price difference was $29 only at the egg. And the cache does do jacksh1t. If you're going to overclock your cpu, the 1mb cache will give you a 5% increase in performance at the same clock speed over the 512kb.

As for the 6800GT owning the XT.....duh. I'm just saying the XT is sufficient.

 

[Mik3y]

Originally posted by: Adn4n
When I got my 3200 the price difference was $29 only at the egg. And the cache does do jacksh1t. If you're going to overclock your cpu, the 1mb cache will give you a 5% increase in performance at the same clock speed over the 512kb.

As for the 6800GT owning the XT.....duh. I'm just saying the XT is sufficient.

yes, but not for its price. for the price of the xt, you can get the vanilla 6800 and thats still much better hten the 9800 xt. the 9800 xt was one of the worst price for performance cards you could have gotten before and is still the same today. its only a couple frams faster then the 9800 pro for a far greater price.

 

[Adn4n]

Originally posted by: Mik3y

Originally posted by: Adn4n
When I got my 3200 the price difference was $29 only at the egg. And the cache does do jacksh1t. If you're going to overclock your cpu, the 1mb cache will give you a 5% increase in performance at the same clock speed over the 512kb.

As for the 6800GT owning the XT.....duh. I'm just saying the XT is sufficient.

yes, but not for its price. for the price of the xt, you can get the vanilla 6800 and thats still much better hten the 9800 xt. the 9800 xt was one of the worst price for performance cards you could have gotten before and is still the same today. its only a couple frams faster then the 9800 pro for a far greater price.

I said get a Radeon 9800 Pro and then flash it to an XT.

 

[Mik3y]

oh, my bad. i didnt quite catch that part.

 

[txxxx]

Originally posted by: Kailurisu

Basing your opinions on an AMD system 6 years ago ... in that case stick to Intel

havent you ever had a bad experience with something and decided not to use it years later because of that experience? I am just saying that because of my bad experiences with amd ive mistrusted them this long, mainly cuz ive never had a problem with intel, im not good with the whole research thing, i get frustrated when I cant find things im looking for so im taking the lazy way out and asking people who already know to point me in the right direction.

Also, the point of this computer is to be a gaming machine, and i really dont want to spend to much more then 1000 dollars unless I can see a good reason for it.

My current Specs are thus.

P4 2.0 ghz on Asus P4B533, with Xerox 512 pc2100 ddr sdram, a Nvidia GeForce ti 4400, SB audigy gamer edition, 40gb Western Digital HD and a Liteon CD-RW. in a crappy mid-tower with a 300w power supply.

The only thing Im keeping from this comp are the Hard Drive, CD-RW and Sound Card.

My Original Plan was to get a p4 3.0 on a Asus P4c800-e, with 2 512mb of Corsair DDR (3200) and the Nvidia 6800gt. a new case, with a 400w power supply. and probably a DVD-rom just because it seems like it will be very handy to start getting the DVD version of games now that there coming out a lot more with that version of it.

Research into AMD platforms isnt difficult. Hell, you dont even need to research nowadays, make a post in here asking "Athlon 64 PC for $xxxx budget" and some people will run up some examples.

But by all means, stick to Intel, after all Sun and other companies are just wasting time, developing platforms with AMD...

 

[Adn4n]

Originally posted by: txxxx

Originally posted by: Kailurisu

Basing your opinions on an AMD system 6 years ago ... in that case stick to Intel

havent you ever had a bad experience with something and decided not to use it years later because of that experience? I am just saying that because of my bad experiences with amd ive mistrusted them this long, mainly cuz ive never had a problem with intel, im not good with the whole research thing, i get frustrated when I cant find things im looking for so im taking the lazy way out and asking people who already know to point me in the right direction.

Also, the point of this computer is to be a gaming machine, and i really dont want to spend to much more then 1000 dollars unless I can see a good reason for it.

My current Specs are thus.

P4 2.0 ghz on Asus P4B533, with Xerox 512 pc2100 ddr sdram, a Nvidia GeForce ti 4400, SB audigy gamer edition, 40gb Western Digital HD and a Liteon CD-RW. in a crappy mid-tower with a 300w power supply.

The only thing Im keeping from this comp are the Hard Drive, CD-RW and Sound Card.

My Original Plan was to get a p4 3.0 on a Asus P4c800-e, with 2 512mb of Corsair DDR (3200) and the Nvidia 6800gt. a new case, with a 400w power supply. and probably a DVD-rom just because it seems like it will be very handy to start getting the DVD version of games now that there coming out a lot more with that version of it.

Research into AMD platforms isnt difficult. Hell, you dont even need to research nowadays, make a post in here asking "Athlon 64 PC for $xxxx budget" and some people will run up some examples.

But by all means, stick to Intel, after all Sun and other companies are just wasting time, developing platforms with AMD...

Exactly! And if you go with Intel right now, you will have future 64-bit support as well when the new Windows comes out......oh wait a minute.....that's AMD.....yet another reason to go Athlon 64

 

[Lyfer]

Here's my reason why I went for an Athlon 64 over a Pentium 4:

Athlon 64's run ICE COLD.


My A64 3000+ with the retail HSF Idles 38-41c, and loads 43-46c. And I don't even have Cool n' Quiet enabled. Go find a 3GHZ Prescott that will do that on a retail cooling solution.

 

[Goi]

Originally posted by: Mik3y

Originally posted by: Goi

Originally posted by: Kailurisu
So browsing newegg real quick this is what i would get going with AMD.

A64 3000+ on an Asus k8n-e deluxe, with 2 512mbs of Corsair 3200 DDR, and a Nvidia 6800 GT.

Would this be a good plan?

Plus any ATX case works right? or what?

I have this case picked out.

any recomendations, this plus the DVD-rom i want adds up to about 1016 before shipping?

Also whose a good brand to buy the nvidia card from? i got XFX picked out ATM.

Enermax makes great power supplies and ok cases. However, that Enermax case you picked out doesn't come with an Enermax PSU, but rather a dinky one, so I'd say get a better PSU.

wow, are u serious? an enermax cases that doesnt come with an enermax psu? that is so weird. i've never bought an enermax case before, but i've always expected for them to be quality all in all like antec. still, they make some of the best psu's out there.

Well if you take a look at the link posted by Kailurisu it shows an Enermax case with a "POWERUP" 400W PSU that has only 17A on the +12V rails. I wouldn't wanna run an A64 system on that.

 

[Goi]

Originally posted by: Adn4n
Get the Clawhammer 3200+ instead of the Newcastle 3000+. They're both 2.0ghz but Claw has 1mb cache. If you're going to overclock your Athlon, then you're going to need better ram than 3200. The multiplier is top-locked at 10, unlike on the prescotts from Intel. Thus you'll need higher ram, I'd go with at least PC 3500. I got mine at newegg for $200 (OCZ brand), they run perfectly.

As for the vidoe card. Sure it's good. But you could simply buy a 9800 pro 256mb/bit with the 360 core and flash it to a 9800xt. This would save you several bucks.

You can't possibly compare the Athlon XP to the Athlon 64. A 3.2 Ghz Prescott will outperform the Athlon XP, but it is miles behind the 64.

If you're overclocking I think you're better off with a Newcastle CG stepping than a Clawhammer C0 stepping. Of course, Clawhammer CG steppings are the best, but it's next to impossible finding one nowadays.

 

[Kailurisu]

Im not plnning on overclocking, at least not at the getgo, i might oc later on if it comes to a point where its worth it but i think the system i plan on getting will be hefty enough that im not gonna bother.

and bloody hell so whats a good power supply to go with, what should i look for?

 

[Mik3y]

just stick with an antec 430W psu. its about $65-70 at newegg and should be mroe then enuff for your system.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: BDSM
Personally my experience is that Intel has more balanced and refined chipsets than do AMD.

My most recent experience with this was with a P4C 3.2 ghz, an abit IC7G mobo and a Creative Audigy 2 ZS soundcard. I upgraded from An Athlon XP, Abit NF7-S 2.0 Mobo and I used internal Soundstorm Audio on that.

I installed Xp on my new system and everything just worked great with no problems at all!
The AMD system I never got to work properly. It was years of different troubles with:

1. Crackling sound in games. (yes I tried all available drivers and yes I had cooling on the SB)

2. Choppy audio playback when I used the keyboard. This can be fixed by disabling APIC mode.

3. Choppy Divx playback. Yes I know many out there have great playback with this setup. Or at least you think you do.

4. The Nvidia sw ide driver.. Well.. I don't think I even need to comment on this.

5. The ethernet driver.. Well. for some reason recent revisions hog a few % cpu power and makes the system "unsmooth".


OK. I probably had even more problems but there are the main ones and they are important because this is the main platform for the athlon xp for enthusiasts and the problems haven't really been resolved over this all time so I'm guesing they are design flaws, not just bad drivers.

If you don't believe me just visit nforcershq's forums and take a peak. Also ask yourself why there are gazillions of different "remixes" of Nvidia drivers outhtere!

Ofcourse maybe the nforce 3 for Amd64 is much improved and these problems are no longer present but I couldn't take that chance when I upgraded so I went with Intel even though I knew Amd had a performance advantage now. My dad got a p4 a few months ago and it works problem free so I knew if I got a similar system it would work great for me too.

And it did.

Maybe VIA's AMd chipsets are better. They weren't in the Kt133 to kt333 days though in my experience.

For me performance is important yes but stability and compatibility are ten times more important.
What's the use of going somewhere fast if you're never gonna get there and the ride is bumpy as hell?

Surely lots of ppl are going to say that their AMD systems really do work without hassle and maybe they are right. But to you who are choosing a new system it would probably be a good idea to actively study different support forums to find out what problems may plague your new and shiny system.


ps.. To all the amd fans that are likely to attack me now: I have experience with the nforce 2 and via kt333 platforms ONLY. Before you say anything about them read what my problems were.

When i first got my A7n8x back in the day when they first came out, rev 1.04 (or ealrier ) and I did experience crackly on games, not music (though when the pc got hotter it would do this and i would have to stop the music for about a minute)

now htough i don't have this issue with sound, and I don't have a fan on my southbridge or anything.

I've never experience any of your problems by the way.

And one more thing...the SW driver is fine...maybe if you are using a pack from a year ago..but if you are using the one that came out 6 months ago it should be fine. As for DIVX i cannot perceive any difference. My friend has a P4 2.66Ghz machine next to me and it makes no difference to either of us~ we end up watching videos on my computer because I have a TV out.
As for CPU usage...lordy lol maybe you really should just try to install the latest drivers instead of spending your time with all this "mixed" driver garbage. My CPU usage stands at 5% now and I'm sending files across the lan and playing some MP3s and chatting online~ oh wait it just jumped up to 10%. If you really have a problem with the onboard LAN (why? You can set it for CPU in the options instead of throughput~ I have mine set on the latter) because that extra 4-5% means the world to you then get a add in card. Dirt cheap these days.


Remember, there will always be more compaliners because for people who the stuff works, there is no need to complain But just try using the latest drivers and you should be fine

And btw....the KT333s were great~ via turned around with the kt266a IMO...the KT400s don't even show any real speed increase over the KT333s beyond DDR 400 support. But if you have problems with KT333 AND nforce2......haha I would wonder if there is user error anywhere My brother has a KT333 on a Epox 8k5A2+ with a 1900+ and he hasn't had ANY problems in the past two years and it is still plenty fast for what he does (everything sans gaming and video encoding)

A lot of your issues just makes me wonder what is going on with your setup. I haven't had any of your issues~ save when I got my motherboard back when the Nforce2 FIRST came out (audio- that was my only issue) but the system has come a LOOONG way since then, especially the drivers (the sw drivres and audio to be specific).

And I have a feeling you are just bashing on via for whatever~ KT333 IMO is rock stable and I haven't seen any issues and if I bought a new AXP pc today I would probably go KT600 because that extra 5% preformance means nothing to me considering all the nice goodies you get with a KT600 (and not to mention...STABLE)

 

[BDSM]

ADN4n.. Read my post again pls. I wasn't comparing them performance wise but stability/compatibility wise!


magomago.. I suppose you and I live in different dimensions then.

1. Regarding crackling sounds ín games: I don't game nowadays so I can't swear this is a problem still.
I do read about others still having the problems though. (there are many manufacturers using the nforce 2 chipset, maybe your board is one of the better ones)

2. You didn't comment on this one (choppy audio when using keyboard) I guess APIC mode just isn't for nf2.

3. Choppy divx playback. Well.. as you said.. you can't percieve any difference and I fully believe you.

4. The SW ide driver. It took years before it was released (I wonder why) and when it came out it was a disaster. You claim it's ok now. Here are a few things ppl say about the latest one at nforcershq:

installed 2.6 IDE drivers and after reboot Windows didn't want to load - ntoskrnl was damaged or wasn't there :/

The latest set of unified nForce drivers officially available from nVidia is version 4.27 (containing IDE driver version 4.12). If you search around you will find that version 5.03 of the unified nForce drivers (containing IDE driver version 4.46) is available 'unofficially' for download. Installing either of these IDE drivers solves your problem instantly ..........However, on my system, both these IDE drivers caused Norton Internet Security/Norton Antivirus 2004 to stop working

Now. There are loads more comments about instability and compatibility issues if you look around so I don't believe they are fine now. It doesn't matter if they are fine for ltos of ppl. There should be very few issues with important drivers like these!

Oh... And when you install your nforce2 chipset drivers you get a specific extra question about if you want to install the sw ide driver.. Again.. I wonder why that is.

5. I've been reading around a bit and it seems the ethernet problem is now fixed. I knew this was posible because I didn't have it when I first got the mobo, it materialized in later drivers. I wonder why it had to take 10 driver updates to fix it though.


So..some of all these issues MAY be fixed with the latest drivers but that is way too late. The platform is on the way to be phased out. I don't need to install them because I have now an i875p + 3.2 ghz p4 + audigy 2 zs combo and I have NO issues at all after an install without any tweaks, special driver mixes or any crap like that.. It just works!


You say there are more complainers because when it works ppl don't complain.
I say that most ppl either don't notice the problems, don't care or don't know how to post in forums like these!

Btw.. just because someone doesn't notice or can't bother to take care of the problem doesn't mean it's insignificant. My sister's friend had a virus on her puter that made it reboot every few mins for over a year! The same person also had the master volume on her puter set very low.. so she had to put her amp on max to get a decent sound level!

So.. just cuz most ppl don't complain doesn't mean there isn't a problem!


I did like the performance of the nforce2 chipset, but not the stability and compatibility, thanx.

ps. My nf7 mobo is now n my mother's "new" puter. For her needs it works rather well, she would never notice any of the things I mentioned here.

 

[mechBgon]

I wish I had a nickel for every Intel-chipset motherboard I've helped troubleshoot here :evil: I'd be able to eat pizza for a week! Maybe Intel has some kind of cash-in program...

I thought I'd point out to people that even if you don't have an A64, you can still enable software DEP in WinXP SP2. It's not as good as full hardware + software DEP, but hey... couldn't hurt. They've also added good stuffs to Internet Explorer, looks like it could be helpful in defeating unwanted spyware toolbars among other things. People who want to DL the full XP SP2 can get it here.

 

[BDSM]

hey Mech.. I never said Intel is without faults. I'm just saying that the system I have now works flawlessly and setup was a breeze. As opposed to the two years of hell with the nf2 board(s) I had.

Thanks for the tip, I'll try that when sp2 is released for swedish language.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
I wish I had a nickel for every Intel-chipset motherboard I've helped troubleshoot here :evil: I'd be able to eat pizza for a week! Maybe Intel has some kind of cash-in program...

I thought I'd point out to people that even if you don't have an A64, you can still enable software DEP in WinXP SP2. It's not as good as full hardware + software DEP, but hey... couldn't hurt. They've also added good stuffs to Internet Explorer, looks like it could be helpful in defeating unwanted spyware toolbars among other things. People who want to DL the full XP SP2 can get it here.

Have I told you you're the man lately? :beer:

 

[Markfw]

I haven;t had time to read every line of this post (dialup on vacation is wretchedly slow), but all I see is comparing old, or at the best one generation back hardware (nforce2) to the P4 instead of the Athlon64. You really need to realize that the nforce3 chipset for the Athlon64 appears to be wonderful, and I only have the via chipset and the AMD chipset (ASUS K8V and Tyan Thunder 2885), but any way you figure it, AMD and Intel are at the very least tied for stability ! (if you exclude anything 775 based for Intel which right now is HORRIBLE for stability, but its too new to count them down for that)

Welcome to 2004 ! AMD is stable and currently the best platform (IMO), but this may change, as things allways do in this business.

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: mechBgon
I wish I had a nickel for every Intel-chipset motherboard I've helped troubleshoot here :evil: I'd be able to eat pizza for a week! Maybe Intel has some kind of cash-in program...

I thought I'd point out to people that even if you don't have an A64, you can still enable software DEP in WinXP SP2. It's not as good as full hardware + software DEP, but hey... couldn't hurt. They've also added good stuffs to Internet Explorer, looks like it could be helpful in defeating unwanted spyware toolbars among other things. People who want to DL the full XP SP2 can get it here.

Have I told you you're the man lately? :beer:

Awwww

This weekend I built up my ol' A7N8X Deluxe into a WinXP SP2 rig for my middle sister and got some useful WinXP experience Hopefully that system will hold up into the Longhorn era for her, with a DirectX9 video card down the road and maybe some more RAM.

EDIT: oh, and when you get the SP2 full download, drop it into a folder such as C:\XPSP2 and rename it SP2.exe for convenience. Now do a Start > Run > cmd and run C:\XPSP2\SP2.exe /? and you can see the command-line switches, which IIRC I used /passive /forcerestart /n /o so it didn't back up the pre-SP2 stuff.

 

[BDSM]

Like I said.. I only know what I've experienced from older amd platforms and what I know from experience with my dad's p4.

If I spent that kinda money on a new system only to find out that it was plagued by the same sh!t drivers that the one I had been fighting with for years had I would probably BSOD myself.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: BDSM
Like I said.. I only know what I've experienced from older amd platforms and what I know from experience with my dad's p4.

If I spent that kinda money on a new system only to find out that it was plagued by the same sh!t drivers that the one I had been fighting with for years had I would probably BSOD myself.

Well, I never had problems with the K6-2 or Athlon XP platforms, but I have had "quirks" that bothered me, (nothing like you mention). Anyway, if you want the best today, go Athlon64 something, and and ASUS motherboard (don't care which one) and you won;t be sorry. I am also sure there are other good MOBOs today, but ASUS has the best track record over the last 15 years. You can do that for less that $300 I think