Aaarghh!

[DrPizza]

Update: Took my son a little over a month to get it back on the road (he has his road test tomorrow, so it wasn't like having the car was critical - road test is in one of our cars anyway.) He did all of the work, with the exception of me pushing on the brake pedal while he was bleeding the brakes.

Gas tank: used was going to cost around $90; decided to just patch the hole. Just a pinhole. He drained the gas tank and used a special epoxy designed for that exact purpose. One brake line wasn't as bad as it first appeared (rusty) - so he replaced only the broken brake line. Nice job. He also had to replace one of the gas lines (the return line.) While he was at it, he installed new shoes in the rear drums. And, in the process, he also had to replace the hose that goes from the brake line to the drum, and he did something to the bleeder valve (somehow, it was temporarily "stuck"? The dust cap for it has obviously been long gone) so he replaced the bleeder valve as well.

Not bad for a 17 year old. His dad is proud that his kid can do more than simply wax his car. I made him double and triple check for any leaks. Then I took it out for a test drive. All is well. And, in his words, it was really really simple to do.

edit: and thanks to those of you who offered your advice - well, at least to the ones who are here to offer tips/advice. The forum is "the garage" not "I'm a freakin' idiot who has to take my car to the shop for everything except waxing it." I'm more than mechanically capable enough to do simple repairs, and my kids were both brought up to be mechanically capable... None of us had ever done these types of repairs before. So, thanks again from me and my son.


---------------------------------------


We needed to park our boat in the driveway the other day, so we asked our son to move his (just purchased for him a couple weeks ago) car out of the way. He did. Son #2 decided on his own to move the car back to the driveway when we weren't home. Took the "shortcut" over a bank, bottomed it out.

1. Gas tank is leaking. I have JB Weld, but it'd need to be dry for that. Does that other gas tank sealer stuff require it to be dry? Or can you put that putty stuff over the hole while gas is actively dripping out?


2. Brake lines - I haven't located the leak yet (I can see evidence of brake fluid on the outside of the line though) because it really doesn't matter too much, at least not yet. The rear brake lines are quite rusty. Should I simply replace both brake lines? (therefore, not bothering with where the actual leak is), or might there be a chance of finding the leak and mending it with a piece of high pressure rubber tubing? (brain fart - there's high pressure rubber tubing for gas lines, but is there for brakes?)

Thanks.
Oh, 95 plymouth neon, if that makes any difference.

 

[ViviTheMage]

check to see if the oil pan is leaking too...

 

[DrPizza]

Nope, oil pan is fine. I solved my brain fart - yes, there is hydraulic hose for brake lines i.e. the foot or so of hose connected to the caliper...

Good idea to simply cut out the damaged inch or two and replace it with hydraulic hose and a couple pipe clamps?

edit: would the best solution be two detach the brake line from where it connects to the drum, cut out the rusty section, bend to fit a new section. Reconnect to the drum, and join it to the remaining good section of line with a compression fitting? (Compression fittings are cheaper than flare tools)

 

[SpeedEng66]

to me cutting out a section and putting on a new fitting is doable

would it be the best solution ... no

best would be to replace the line

 

[Squisher]

Actually brake lines are double flares (both out and then curled back in). Unless you you have a double flaring tool your best bet will be to find some shop that make the length you need.

Hose clamps are a no go!

They do usually have an assortment of different length lines at most auto parts stores and nipples to gang them together to get the longer lengths and lengths you need. No one is going to mark you down for aesthetics if the line squiggles back and forth to get to where you need to go.

 

[Painman]

I'd leave this work for a mechanic. Brakes are life and death, but replacing a section of line isn't that expensive. I just got some line replaced and it was $170 with bleed job.

Being as the car is a 95, it would be good to let its brake system have a good looking over anyway - by an honest mechanic, of course - that's old enough for calipers, cylinders etc. to be worn.

 

[imported_Truenofan]

calipers can last a long time, i still have my stock calipers on my car, never rebuilt, and as strong as ever(i talk to the two previous owners that have owned it for at least 7yrs on a daily basis) and those are almost 20. if you cant replace the hoses yourself, yes you should bring them into a honest mechanic to get the system bled of air, and replace the hoses is the recommended method. since you could have gotten air in your system and will get air in it when they take the hoses off anyway.

 

[dud]

You have a leaking gas tank and damaged brake lines? Both systems are critical to the efficient running of the car and the safety of it's occupants. Do you really want to risk your son's (and anyone else in the car) life by going on the cheap? I just gave my son a car and I would never consider this.

Replace the tank (with a new one) and replace the entire brake line. Have a mechanic do it.

 

[TekViper]

You can't cut out rubber brake line and replace it with hose and hose clamps, you need to replace the entire hose with a new one. You will just cause a big leak trying to do that. Also, repairing gas tanks is not recommended, you need to replace it. Finally, compression fittings don't belong anywhere near an automotive hyrdaulic brake system.

From what I have just read, I would bring the car to a proffesional to have it fixed if you value you, your son's, and the general driving public's safety.

 

[DrPizza]

Let me point out that mechanically, I have no problem with the skills needed to complete the job; my questions were merely, what are my job options. I've never replaced brake lines before. Nor has anyone else prior their first time too. I've replaced pads, shoes, rotors, and rebuilt wheel cylinders before. Unless the skill set for the brake lines is significantly greater, it really shouldn't be a problem.

I am now aware that the idea of using hydraulic hose is incorrect, as is compression fittings. Thanks everyone who replied. I now understand that I have only one best option: go to the auto parts store tomorrow morning and get an appropriate length of steel brake line, already double flared and ready to connect. I will bend the brake lines myself to fit. I already have the spring things to do so. Oh, and the other option: pay for a tow truck to haul the car to a garage, plus the costs of repairing it.

Oh, and back to the original question: since the brake lines are rusty, should I just go ahead and replace both of them (even though only one is leaking?) (Again, I now see that only replacing a section of a line is not an option; sheeesh, I didn't need all the chicken little replies.)

re: the gas tank - there are plenty of products on the market to patch them. Risking my son's life... please, if that's the best type of auto advice you can give, head over to P&N. If I could drain enough gasoline out, my preferred product would be JBweld. It's not as if the whole tank is rusted out - there's a small dent and pinhole in it from where it was bottomed out. I've even read that filling the hole with a brass screw is an option (which I won't; I'll be using an epoxy.)

Can someone give me a serious reason not to use the epoxy? Any particular brand of epoxy for gas tanks better than another?

 

[dud]

You said:

"re: the gas tank - there are plenty of products on the market to patch them. Risking my son's life... please, if that's the best type of auto advice you can give, head over to P&N. If I could drain enough gasoline out, my preferred product would be JBweld. It's not as if the whole tank is rusted out - there's a small dent and pinhole in it from where it was bottomed out. I've even read that filling the hole with a brass screw is an option (which I won't; I'll be using an epoxy.)"


This is beyond sad. I couldn't sleep at night with this type of attitude. Did you read what you just said? One (1) gallon of gasoline has the explosive force of 144 sticks of TNT. Your son's car has a leaking gas tank. All it would take is for a few drops to leak out ... and for the vapor from the leaking gas to be ignited by a cigarette or whatnot.

I am not going to argue with you at all, but can you see the irony here? A '95 Neon with a leak in the gas tank? Do you still not see the problem?

I've had it with you ...

 

[boomerang]

Brake lines:

Yes, replace them both. You'll just be replacing the other one at a later date. There are two types of flares used in modern cars. Double flare and what's called a bubble flare. Which do you need?

Also the "spring thing" isn't going to work because it's not made to go over the flare already on the line. However, you will need to buy a length of brake line longer that what you need. You will end up cutting it to length and you will need to flare the cut end. A previous reply talked about letting the additional line just more or less flop around. This is bad. Metal fatigue from bumps and such will eventually cause another leak. There's a reason the factory line is bent and affixed as it is.

You've gotten the best advice on the gas tank situation already. Replace it or take it in for professional repair.

Think about it. Is it worth it to chance the brakes going out while your son is driving the car and have him end up in a fiery wreck because of shadetree repairs?

Only you can answer that question.

 

[RobertE]

Sorry, but the cost of repairs > value of car. :frown:

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: dud

This is beyond sad. I couldn't sleep at night with this type of attitude. Did you read what you just said? One (1) gallon of gasoline has the explosive force of 144 sticks of TNT. Your son's car has a leaking gas tank. All it would take is for a few drops to leak out ... and for the vapor from the leaking gas to be ignited by a cigarette or whatnot.

I am not going to argue with you at all, but can you see the irony here? A '95 Neon with a leak in the gas tank? Do you still not see the problem?

I've had it with you ...

The stuff's not safe, but it's not going to murder you in your sleep either. When's the last time you heard of a gasoline station exploding? Spilling gasoline on the road tends to be more dangerous from a traction standpoint than a flammability one. If he drains the tank and patches it, it ought to be fine. If he replaces the whole brake line (not just the damaged section), and torques it up properly, he should be fine.

 

[DrPizza]

Thanks, boomerang and jagec. My son is in the middle of doing all the work right now. Given the wonderful route that the brake line runs (the engineer had to be drunk at the time he designed that) my son had to remove the gas tank anyway - it's leaning against the garage as I type this. Once he got the line off; (well, half of it; it broke at the point of the leak) we decided that replacing the other line would barely add any more labor or time to the job. (compared to all the components under the hood that had to be removed.)

Since the gas tank had to come off anyway, we'll drain it, dry it, and patch it from the inside. Should I weld it? Or just solder the hole?

dud: If that's your attitude, what on earth are you doing in the garage forum? People come here for help, not to listen to trolls. 1st of all, your 144 sticks of TNT is a bunch of chicken little nonsense. Yes, that might be the equivalent amount of energy contained by the gasoline. There's no way you're going to get the explosive force of 144 sticks of dynamite from 1 gallon of leaked gas in the situation you've described. The only way possible is if 100% of it was vaporized and at a critical concentration in the air (which would require a very large, sealed room). And, you think that a carelessly tossed cigarette butt is going to ignite it?! Please. You've been watching wayyy too much television. Do you believe that cars can be exploded by people shooting the gas tank - you saw in on the Matrix, right? Or was it The Matrix II? Despite Hollywood's take on it, a cigarette butt is quite unlikely (not impossible, just unlikely) to ignite gasoline. You can put a lit cigarette out in a puddle of gasoline without it igniting the gasoline. There's only a very narrow band of circumstances where a cigarette butt will ignite anything. And, with a car parked outdoors - that's not likely to happen. I don't have people smoking inside my garage. Heck, gasoline gets spilled at gas stations every day. You don't hear about them blowing up, do you?

Based on those two parts of your statement alone, you're either trolling, or you don't know what you're talking about. You don't have to look too hard to see it recommended in many places to attempt an epoxy repair before you just go ahead and replace the tank. Car talk has even recommended it several times. If the tank had developed a leak because it had rusted out, then of course I'd replace it. This is a pinhole due to hitting a small rock. If the epoxy patch doesn't hold, then I'll have no choice but to replace the tank. But, it'd be pretty foolish to blow the $$ on a new tank if I can affect a permanent repair with epoxy. And, I'm willing to bet money that a JBweld patch will hold just fine. (I patched a corroded freeze expansion plug with huge success; the alternative was pulling the engine to replace the plug.) If I was having a garage do it, I'd probably just go with the new tank, rather than gamble on having to pay for labor twice. But, my 17 year old is doing all the work on the car, and he's pretty cheap labor (it's his car). If the JBweld doesn't hold, the labor will have to be repeated to replace the tank, but that stuff has never failed me. (I already checked, it's completely resistant to gasoline.)

Oh, and I'm just joking about welding or soldering!

Thanks again everyone who's being helpful! It's much appreciated.

 

[iamwiz82]

I recommend replacing the gas tank simply because it will be easier than trying to epoxy, even though I do love JB Weld. I would assume around the same price as JB Weld, too.

 

[DrPizza]

Gas tanks are that cheap? JB Weld is just a couple dollars!

 

[CurseTheSky]

Just don't do what my friend did - attempt to WELD (read: not JB Weld) leaks from the straps cutting into the (rusty) gas tank, after "siphoning out all the gas."

The phone dialog, for comedy:

"MY CAR JUST BLEW UP?"
"Um... ok, what happened? Are you hurt?"
"I'M FINE. MY CAR BLEW UP!"
"How did it blow up? Did it backfire? Are you sure you're ok?"
"I HAD TO FIX THE GAS TANK. IT BLEW UP!"
"Gas... tends to do that. Were you smoking?"
(Calmer) "No! I had to fix a leak. <Other Friend's Name> told me that welding it would be better than anything else."
"..."
"I drained all the gas out! It still blew up!"
"So... an empty gas tank exploded? Are you sure you drained it all?"
"Yeah. I'm not an idiot!"
"How did you drain it?"
"I siphoned out everything, then dropped it down."
"Did you give it enough time to dry out?"
"..."
"So you welded a STILL-WET gas tank, and wonder why it blew up?"
"... Can you give me a hand cleaning this up?"

 

[DrPizza]

lmao! Even years ago, I remember hearing stories of people who thought that rinsing with water would take care of it.

 

[DrPizza]

Update: My son finished the work on his car. Runs good, brakes just fine, no leaks. (Gas tank has had gas in it for a week now without any sign of wanting to leak.)