Abbott is an idiot. Free market approach to failing electrical grid.

[Xcobra]

No, the GOP has radicalized to the point of being dangerous and requires a sober, not a fanatical response. You are just adding impetus to the wheel of Karma. Your options are to respond with reason or with madness. Your way looks like madness to me. It will achieve the opposite result of what is intended. You have it right that real morality is vital but yours is just as fucked up as theirs is when you act out of triggered fear.

I haven't given it a good thought but I think I understand what your point is. My partial answer is, while I do understand that the far left has become too triggered to warrant meaningful conversation with conservatives, I feel like this whole moral basis/breadth/understanding is a nonissue because as you said, deep down they have more in common than they don't if you drop all the bullshit and propaganda. However, I am more empathic towards the left because while they can be quite intolerant, they are merely trying to hold conservatives accountable (albeit, not in a meaningful way) because conservatives won't. At some point, society has to draw the line as to what is morally acceptable and what isn't. And as it turns out, specific conservatives no longer seem subscribe to their so-called moral compass. Liberals are only reacting to that (as misguided as that can be at times). Once you've lost your moral compass, it's like negotiating with a psychopath.

I understand that this discussion is meant to shine a light on what drives each political group morally but at this stage, it's too late I think. All has turned into tribalism. We can't excuse the conservatives because liberals aren't able to sympathize with them. My 2 cents.

 

[zinfamous]

Good job, Texas: you're about to get another freedom-shaped ice sickle shoved up your rear entry.

 

[IronWing]

Ice sickle, really?

 

[Moonbeam]

I haven't given it a good thought but I think I understand what your point is. My partial answer is, while I do understand that the far left has become too triggered to warrant meaningful conversation with conservatives, I feel like this whole moral basis/breadth/understanding is a nonissue because as you said, deep down they have more in common than they don't if you drop all the bullshit and propaganda. However, I am more empathic towards the left because while they can be quite intolerant, they are merely trying to hold conservatives accountable (albeit, not in a meaningful way) because conservatives won't. At some point, society has to draw the line as to what is morally acceptable and what isn't. And as it turns out, specific conservatives no longer seem subscribe to their so-called moral compass. Liberals are only reacting to that (as misguided as that can be at times). Once you've lost your moral compass, it's like negotiating with a psychopath.

I understand that this discussion is meant to shine a light on what drives each political group morally but at this stage, it's too late I think. All has turned into tribalism. We can't excuse the conservatives because liberals aren't able to sympathize with them. My 2 cents.

I think you basically get it. This is the situation. What it means to me is that this is the limit of rage. No matter how great your contempt for the other is the result is hopelessness. It will not make the other see. Together, at the bottom of the rabbit hole the hopelessness of the situation is clear. Hatred and rage are empty because at their source what we hate is ourselves. Our war with the other comes down in the end to our incapacity to stomach our contempt for ourselves, that our hopeless condition is the result of our inability to love. There is only one way out and it has nothing at all to do with changing the other. Only you can awaken. Only you can surrender and accept. Only you can stop feeding the machine.

 

[SmCaudata]

I think you basically get it. This is the situation. What it means to me is that this is the limit of rage. No matter how great your contempt for the other is the result is hopelessness. It will not make the other see. Together, at the bottom of the rabbit hole the hopelessness of the situation is clear. Hatred and rage are empty because at their source what we hate is ourselves. Our war with the other comes down in the end to our incapacity to stomach our contempt for ourselves, that our hopeless condition is the result of our inability to love. There is only one way out and it has nothing at all to do with changing the other. Only you can awaken. Only you can surrender and accept. Only you can stop feeding the machine.

The other side won't see it. People are literally dying to "own the libs". McConnell and Co have clearly said they will prevent Biden frim having a "win" at all costs. They only care about preventing democrats from making progress, even if that progress would help society.

Liberal anger isn't about convincing self sabotaging republican voters. It's about getting out the vote. It's about pushing moderate democrats to do the right thing.

The Obama years showed how futile it was to make the other side see my point of view. They don't care. They live in a post fact fantasy world.

 

[fskimospy]

The other side won't see it. People are literally dying to "own the libs". McConnell and Co have clearly said they will prevent Biden frim having a "win" at all costs. They only care about preventing democrats from making progress, even if that progress would help society.

Liberal anger isn't about convincing self sabotaging republican voters. It's about getting out the vote. It's about pushing moderate democrats to do the right thing.

The Obama years showed how futile it was to make the other side see my point of view. They don't care. They live in a post fact fantasy world.

I think the base mobilization strategy is pretty clearly wrong - both 2016 and 2020 were decided by vote switchers, not by mobilized base voters.

That being said, I think you're right that it is pointless to attempt outreach to the 'own the libs' folks as they are irrational and unreachable. There's more than enough people who may be Republican curious who ARE reachable though, and those are who we should focus on. The Philadelphia suburbs swung strongly against Trump and probably provided the decisive margin for Biden in PA. I bet you there are an awful lot of Trump->Biden people in those areas too.

 

[Xcobra]

I think you basically get it. This is the situation. What it means to me is that this is the limit of rage. No matter how great your contempt for the other is the result is hopelessness. It will not make the other see. Together, at the bottom of the rabbit hole the hopelessness of the situation is clear. Hatred and rage are empty because at their source what we hate is ourselves. Our war with the other comes down in the end to our incapacity to stomach our contempt for ourselves, that our hopeless condition is the result of our inability to love. There is only one way out and it has nothing at all to do with changing the other. Only you can awaken. Only you can surrender and accept. Only you can stop feeding the machine.

While I agree with the latter part of your statement, I am of the belief that the current condition is the result of the 'rotten' conservatism. I am not saying that extreme leftism hasn't existed before but I am saying that extremism is usually met by extremism which I see as necessary in rare circumstances for the greater good. Can you imagine giving free range to the modern conservative? We would have a modern day pre-WWII Germany. So tribalism counters tribalism.

I read the study you posted the link to on post #43. I won't get into the details as you are already familiar with it but my basic conclusion is (as a more liberal-leaning person) is that liberals tending to favor more individualistic moral foundations perhaps indicates that they are willing to hold themselves more accountable for when they don't abide by their own morals (there are many examples of this even in current politics) and are more capable of introspection (which is what we need as you, yourself said). While it seems conservatives tend to give importance to the wider range of moral foundations, I saw this as a way to shift away from personal responsibility. Which makes me think of the 'do as I say and not as I do' and conservatives' propensity to prefer fascism as they want someone to tell them what to do (cue in Trumpism).

I mean, there are multiple ways of interpreting the data and it doesn't seem to conclude whether one way is better but it definitely describes the current state of both sides in a different way than perhaps what you intended.

In the end, it's all fucked up as you say and it seems that there is no solution in sight yet. But let me clear, there is no empathetic way to resolving what the conservatives are doing at the moment (as many here and others have said multiple times). And while the left doesn't have the right tools/approach, how else can you approach this?

 

[SmCaudata]

I think the base mobilization strategy is pretty clearly wrong - both 2016 and 2020 were decided by vote switchers, not by mobilized base voters.

That being said, I think you're right that it is pointless to attempt outreach to the 'own the libs' folks as they are irrational and unreachable. There's more than enough people who may be Republican curious who ARE reachable though, and those are who we should focus on. The Philadelphia suburbs swung strongly against Trump and probably provided the decisive margin for Biden in PA. I bet you there are an awful lot of Trump->Biden people in those areas too.

I meant more to mobilize the moderate elected officials, not necessarily the voters. Democrats have the votes provided they aren't suppressed. They have the majority in both houses of congress and the white house and nothing is moving because of moderate senators. Look at how all the GOP senators fell in line, even if they despised Trump. They recognized a chance to move their agenda. Those that didn't fall in line feared for their political lives. Liberals need to put the same pressure on the moderates in Washington.

 

[fskimospy]

I meant more to mobilize the moderate elected officials, not necessarily the voters. Democrats have the votes provided they aren't suppressed. They have the majority in both houses of congress and the white house and nothing is moving because of moderate senators. Look at how all the GOP senators fell in line, even if they despised Trump. They recognized a chance to move their agenda. Those that didn't fall in line feared for their political lives. Liberals need to put the same pressure on the moderates in Washington.

I hear you but I don't think it's that simple. First, I think it was the other way around - Trump fell in line behind congressional Republicans. He doesn't have any concrete policy views he just wants attention, adulation, and the ability to steal money from the treasury. To me it seems clear that he made a trade with Republicans in Congress that he would support any policy they wanted so long as they promised to never, ever investigate his corruption.

As far as Democrats go, by 'moderates' I assume you mean Manchin and Sinema? The problem with Manchin is that Democrats have literally zero leverage. Any action they take against him probably increases his chances of re-election, not decreases it. As far as Sinema goes the only things I can think of are that that she either has no plans to run for re-election or she is completely delusional. If she runs she's going to get primaried and she's going to lose, so in many ways the Democrats have already applied maximum pressure on her. If she loses or doesn't run some Republican affiliated group will pick her up for a cushy job. What else is there to do unless you've got some compromising photos of her or something?

 

[Moonbeam]

I think the base mobilization strategy is pretty clearly wrong - both 2016 and 2020 were decided by vote switchers, not by mobilized base voters.

That being said, I think you're right that it is pointless to attempt outreach to the 'own the libs' folks as they are irrational and unreachable. There's more than enough people who may be Republican curious who ARE reachable though, and those are who we should focus on. The Philadelphia suburbs swung strongly against Trump and probably provided the decisive margin for Biden in PA. I bet you there are an awful lot of Trump->Biden people in those areas too.

I think what you are saying here amounts to a change in messaging. End the Conservatives are stupid and evil crap and present a full spectrum moral message. Affirm support for traditional values and express what you believe them to be, affirm respect for authority but only when that respect is deserved. Respect the right of people to self defense but not the arming of mad men. Respect religious values so long as that same respect is given back to those of other religions or none. Etc etc etc and live up to the message with action. Inform people of how socialism is how real Americans built barns, churches, and towns, together regardless of political belief.

 

[dank69]

I don't see a lot of people asking me to further clarify what I am saying.

I ask you to clarify from time to time, but recently have begun to start skipping many of your posts because when I finally get through the mushmouth I'm more and more often left with either shit or nothing or both.

I get more of the reaction to the associations they spark by way of defensiveness and denial that does not look mush to me like receptivity to any real openness to different ideas. ...

You are focusing on reactions without a single consideration for whether or not the reactions are valid. That is lazy and it is melting your brain.

BTW, Maher is an unfunny idiot who happens to be right about certain things from time to time, but certainly not right about anything original. You can go ahead and believe that hot take is simply a reaction or collection of reactions instead of based on actual information, IDGAF.

 

[Moonbeam]

While I agree with the latter part of your statement, I am of the belief that the current condition is the result of the 'rotten' conservatism. I am not saying that extreme leftism hasn't existed before but I am saying that extremism is usually met by extremism which I see as necessary in rare circumstances for the greater good. Can you imagine giving free range to the modern conservative? We would have a modern day pre-WWII Germany. So tribalism counters tribalism.

I read the study you posted the link to on post #43. I won't get into the details as you are already familiar with it but my basic conclusion is (as a more liberal-leaning person) is that liberals tending to favor more individualistic moral foundations perhaps indicates that they are willing to hold themselves more accountable for when they don't abide by their own morals (there are many examples of this even in current politics) and are more capable of introspection (which is what we need as you, yourself said). While it seems conservatives tend to give importance to the wider range of moral foundations, I saw this as a way to shift away from personal responsibility. Which makes me think of the 'do as I say and not as I do' and conservatives' propensity to prefer fascism as they want someone to tell them what to do (cue in Trumpism).

I mean, there are multiple ways of interpreting the data and it doesn't seem to conclude whether one way is better but it definitely describes the current state of both sides in a different way than perhaps what you intended.

In the end, it's all fucked up as you say and it seems that there is no solution in sight yet. But let me clear, there is no empathetic way to resolving what the conservatives are doing at the moment (as many here and others have said multiple times). And while the left doesn't have the right tools/approach, how else can you approach this?

As I said, the war, the real revolution can only happen within oneself. When you see that where you are trying to go leads nowhere, give it up. Only then can a new door, a new way of seeing open.Everything can change at the limits of rage the last wall between us and our pain. The empathy required is for the self.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I think what you are saying here amounts to a change in messaging. End the Conservatives are stupid and evil crap and present a full spectrum moral message. Affirm support for traditional values and express what you believe them to be, affirm respect for authority but only when that respect is deserved. Respect the right of people to self defense but not the arming of mad men. Respect religious values so long as that same respect is given back to those of other religions or none. Etc etc etc and live up to the message with action. Inform people of how socialism is how real Americans built barns, churches, and towns, together regardless of political belief.

That's what Dem's have been doing. How's that working out?

 

[pete6032]

I don't see a lot of people asking me to further clarify what I am saying.

Most of what you post is off-the-walls bonkers and completely irrelevant to the topic of the thread, so that's probably why people don't ask you to clarify.

 

[fskimospy]

I think what you are saying here amounts to a change in messaging. End the Conservatives are stupid and evil crap and present a full spectrum moral message. Affirm support for traditional values and express what you believe them to be, affirm respect for authority but only when that respect is deserved. Respect the right of people to self defense but not the arming of mad men. Respect religious values so long as that same respect is given back to those of other religions or none. Etc etc etc and live up to the message with action. Inform people of how socialism is how real Americans built barns, churches, and towns, together regardless of political belief.

You're basically describing what swing Democrats already do. There are certainly some cases where congress is out of step with what the average person thinks (like trans rights for example) but essentially you are already describing their messaging strategy. As far as 'live up to the message with action' what does that mean exactly?

Moreover, we should remember that as far as 'getting the most votes' goes, Democrats are an extremely effective political party. The issue for Democrats is that in a two party system they don't just have to get the most votes, they have to get the most votes by a wide margin. It's funny that everyone always criticizes the Democrats for being bad at politics or being out of touch with the people when the majority of voters usually go for them! If Republicans won by identical margins they would have blowout majority after blowout majority.

The main complaint is basically that Democrats don't win by 5+ points as often as we think they should so clearly there's something wrong with the party. While I certainly wish they won by those margins more often, winning by that in a two party system is HARD. The real issue is the deck is stacked.

 

[Moonbeam]

I ask you to clarify from time to time, but recently have begun to start skipping many of your posts because when I finally get through the mushmouth I'm more and more often left with either shit or nothing or both.

You are focusing on reactions without a single consideration for whether or not the reactions are valid. That is lazy and it is melting your brain.

BTW, Maher is an unfunny idiot who happens to be right about certain things from time to time, but certainly not right about anything original. You can go ahead and believe that hot take is simply a reaction or collection of reactions instead of based on actual information, IDGAF.

Help me out. I have spent a lot of effort explaining why I think the reactions are not valid and you give me one line that I'm not considering the possibility they are right. How does that make any sense. I didn't spend all that time and effort explaining why I think they are wrong without considerable effort coming to that conclusion. I used to think they are right. Furthermore, you just say I don't consider they might be right but give me nothing as to why you think so. But I am the one who is lazy with a melted brain.

Maybe you are just mad because you want badly to, but can't land a punch. I am a master of I don't give a fuck and so much so I see through myself and my need to pronounce it to the world as just a smoke screen hiding how much I hurt because I do care.

 

[Moonbeam]

You're basically describing what swing Democrats already do. There are certainly some cases where congress is out of step with what the average person thinks (like trans rights for example) but essentially you are already describing their messaging strategy. As far as 'live up to the message with action' what does that mean exactly?

Moreover, we should remember that as far as 'getting the most votes' goes, Democrats are an extremely effective political party. The issue for Democrats is that in a two party system they don't just have to get the most votes, they have to get the most votes by a wide margin. It's funny that everyone always criticizes the Democrats for being bad at politics or being out of touch with the people when the majority of voters usually go for them! If Republicans won by identical margins they would have blowout majority after blowout majority.

The main complaint is basically that Democrats don't win by 5+ points as often as we think they should so clearly there's something wrong with the party. While I certainly wish they won by those margins more often, winning by that in a two party system is HARD. The real issue is the deck is stacked.

Not sure if you are just being argumentative or are not seeing democratic messaging as I do. I don't have any problems with what you say here. I hear Democrats messaging and it isn't what I think it could be. I understand that Republicans have power out of proportion to how popular they are.

 

[fskimospy]

Not sure if you are just being argumentative or are not seeing democratic messaging as I do. I don't have any problems with what you say here. I hear Democrats messaging and it isn't what I think it could be. I understand that Republicans have power out of proportion to how popular they are.

Maybe we aren't seeing it in the same way but if you pull up a random house or senate campaign ad from a Democrat in any modestly contested race they will be doing exactly what you recommend. Talking about shared values, how we need to get guns off the streets but only from the bad people, etc.

This happened a lot under Obama too, I lost track how many times I saw articles written about how if Obama only did X then everything would be great without noticing he was already doing X.

 

[dank69]

Help me out. I have spent a lot of effort explaining why I think the reactions are not valid and you give me one line that I'm not considering the possibility they are right. How does that make any sense. I didn't spend all that time and effort explaining why I think they are wrong without considerable effort coming to that conclusion. I used to think they are right. Furthermore, you just say I don't consider they might be right but give me nothing as to why you think so. But I am the one who is lazy with a melted brain.

Because you hand-wave away many detailed explanations and tons of evidence.

"oh, liberals actually give the same or more once you control for religious donations? Well that isn't actually relevant (why did you bring it up then)" or "that's cherry picking (no it fucking isn't, donating to most religious causes does more harm than good)"

"conservatives care about many more moral issues than liberals" yeah it's fucking easy when you pretend to care about shit you don't actually care about. They even care about both sides of the same issue even though they're contradictory, but good news that's an extra moral issue they care about and we need to lend it legitimacy instead of ridicule!

Every human should be immediately denounced for attempting to legislate morality, how have we not figured this out yet? Your sense of morality, your religion, your beliefs are great for deciding how YOU want to live. The second someone wants to use any of that when forming public policy that someone needs to be punched in the fucking face until they recognize it is unacceptable at any level.

Evidence and data and constant analysis. That is the valid way forward. No more fucking postulations. Make the changes, gather more data, and re-analyze. Causing more harm than good? Change it back. Or make tweaks. We have the tools and experience necessary. Stop treating guesswork as equivalent to hard evidence.

Maybe you are just mad because you want badly to, but can't land a punch. I am a master of I don't give a fuck and so much so I see through myself and my need to pronounce it to the world as just a smoke screen hiding how much I hurt because I do care.

I'm not trying to punch. You are promoting a lot of garbage. Promoting garbage has negative consequences on the rest of the world.

 

[dank69]

Not sure if you are just being argumentative or are not seeing democratic messaging as I do. I don't have any problems with what you say here. I hear Democrats messaging and it isn't what I think it could be. I understand that Republicans have power out of proportion to how popular they are.

You seem to think there is a rational way to the Republican and "independent" heart and I can't believe you still think that.

 

[Paratus]

Good job, Texas: you're about to get another freedom-shaped ice sickle shoved up your rear entry.

Can’t wait….

 

[nakedfrog]

Most of what you post is off-the-walls bonkers and completely irrelevant to the topic of the thread, so that's probably why people don't ask you to clarify.

TBH, for years now I've rarely bothered to even read Moonbeam posts.

 

[nakedfrog]

View attachment 56824

Can’t wait….

They learned their lesson from last year and took pro-active measures to prevent similar issues from happening this year, right?

 

[Paratus]

They learned their lesson from last year and took pro-active measures to prevent similar issues from happening this year, right?

Yes. They required the industry to winterize or file a $150 extension waiver so I'm sure we are good.

Texas electricity regulators say most power generation facilities are ready for winter. That alone won't stop a blackout.

In the first status report of how electricity companies are preparing for winter, electric regulators expressed confidence in improvements made since February’s deadly storm. But the changes address only part of the power grid supply chain.

www.texastribune.org

 

[nakedfrog]

Yes. They required the industry to winterize or file a $150 extension waiver so I'm sure we are good.

Texas electricity regulators say most power generation facilities are ready for winter. That alone won't stop a blackout.

In the first status report of how electricity companies are preparing for winter, electric regulators expressed confidence in improvements made since February’s deadly storm. But the changes address only part of the power grid supply chain.

www.texastribune.org

I guess what I'm getting out of that is "we did more than nothing". Suppose we'll find out how well it went soon! My sympathy to y'all who might take one on the chin from Jack Frost.