abolish the electoral college

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

1967mustangman

Senior member
May 31, 2001
500
0
0
The EC is not going anywhere. You will never get the legeslatures of enogh small states to go for an idea like that. The beauty of the electoral college (as i see it) is that it balances the power and forces candidates to go to places they would usually never go. States that possess only a few votes suddenly become very important. Otherwise candidates would spend all thier time in California New York Florida and other high population states. Make them to to every single state in the union to get all the votes they need to win. We are after all the United States of America and not the United Citizens of America. We live in a Republic not a Democracy.
 

NarcoticHobo

Senior member
Nov 18, 2004
442
0
0
Originally posted by: 1967mustangman
The EC is not going anywhere. You will never get the legeslatures of enogh small states to go for an idea like that. The beauty of the electoral college (as i see it) is that it balances the power and forces candidates to go to places they would usually never go. States that possess only a few votes suddenly become very important. Otherwise candidates would spend all thier time in California New York Florida and other high population states. Make them to to every single state in the union to get all the votes they need to win. We are after all the United States of America and not the United Citizens of America. We live in a Republic not a Democracy.

As far as the debate goes, it doesn't really matter whether it will actually change or not, merely whether it should. As for your second point, that is an excellent point, but I have to ask whose fault would that be? Would that be the fault of the EC being thrown out, or would that be the fault of the candidates not being fair to the country?

In either case I think if they did that and it was a real problem they wouldn't win, as people would say "hey, this guy doesn't care about everyone in this country, he's just trying to get the votes of the huge states. Aside from that, its not like that doesn't happen under the current system... I mean do you think Kerry or Bush came to SC for more than a 30 minute pit stop on the way to Florida? Of course they didn't! Why? Because SC is a locked state. So with your logic the EC is actually worse as more people get less attention, where without the EC the midwest is ignored, with the EC places like CA, SC, AL, MS, NY, and all the other fairly locked states get almost no attention, and this would result in a larger amount of people being ignored.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: 1967mustangman
The EC is not going anywhere. You will never get the legeslatures of enogh small states to go for an idea like that. The beauty of the electoral college (as i see it) is that it balances the power and forces candidates to go to places they would usually never go. States that possess only a few votes suddenly become very important. Otherwise candidates would spend all thier time in California New York Florida and other high population states. Make them to to every single state in the union to get all the votes they need to win. We are after all the United States of America and not the United Citizens of America. We live in a Republic not a Democracy.

Your point about spreading out the votes in order to encourage candidates to spend time in states that would obviously receive less attention without the EC is a valid one, however, we have to recognize that the EC inflates the importance of swing states. Places like Ohio, PA, MO, etc get more attention than NY or CA, even though they have less population.

Without the EC candidates would certainly campaign most where populations were the highest, however, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means they will spend there time in different regions than they do now.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: NarcoticHobo
The real reason we have an electoral college is for purely logistical reasons, it is a lot easier to count 400-500 state representatives than it is to tally all of the votes from each state together, especially with the transportation and communication available during the writing of the constitution.

So, write your senators, try to get this abolished.


Not quite. The EC was created as a compromise to make it appear as though the people were electing the president, but really leaving the decision up to an elite - congress. The founding fathers believed that nobody would ever get a majority of electoral votes and therefore the choice for president and vice president would be left up to congress, not the people.
 

TheGameIs21

Golden Member
Apr 23, 2001
1,329
0
0
Originally posted by: oldman420
Washington, DC ? Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) today announced that she will introduce legislation to abolish the Electoral College and provide for direct popular election of the President and Vice President when the Senate convenes for the 109 th Congress in January.

?The Electoral College is an anachronism and the time has come to bring our democracy into the 21st Century,? Senator Feinstein said. ?During the founding years of the Republic, the Electoral College may have been a suitable system, but today it is flawed and amounts to national elections being decided in several battleground states.

?We need to have a serious, comprehensive debate on reforming the Electoral College. I will press for hearings in the Judiciary Committee on which I sit and ultimately a vote on the Senate floor, as occurred 25 years ago on this subject. My goal is simply to allow the popular will of the American people to be expressed every four years when we elect our President. Right now, that is not happening.?

Under the current system for electing the President of the United States:

Candidates focus only on a handful of contested states and ignore the concerns of tens of millions of Americans living in other states;
A candidate can lose in 39 states, but still win the Presidency;
A candidate can lose the popular vote by more than 10 million votes, but still win the Presidency;
A candidate can win 20 million votes in the general election, but win zero electoral votes, as happened to Ross Perot in 1992;
In most states, the candidate who wins a state?s election, wins all of that state?s electoral votes, no matter the winning margin, which can disenfranchise those who supported the losing candidate;
A candidate can win a state?s vote, but an elector can refuse to represent the will of a majority of the voters in that state by voting arbitrarily for the losing candidate (this has reportedly happened 9 times since 1820);
Smaller states have a disproportionate advantage over larger states because of the two ?constant? or ?senatorial? electors assigned to each state;
A tie in the Electoral College is decided by a single vote from each state?s delegation in the House of Representatives, which would unfairly grant California?s 36 million residents equal status with Wyoming?s 500,000 residents; and
In case of such a tie, House members are not bound to support the candidate who won their state?s election, which has the potential to further distort the will of the majority.
?Sooner or later we will have a situation where there is a great disparity between the electoral vote winner and the popular vote winner. If the President and Vice President are elected by a direct popular vote of the American people, then every American?s vote will count the same regardless of whether they live in California, Maine, Ohio or Florida,? Senator Feinstein said.

In the history of the country, there have been four instances of disputed elections where the President who was elected won the electoral vote, but lost the popular vote ? John Quincy Adams in 1824, Rutherford B. Hayes in 1876, Benjamin Harrison in 1888 and George W. Bush in 2000. According to some estimates there have been at least 22 instances where a similar scenario could have occurred in close elections.

?Our system is not undemocratic, but it is imperfect, and we have the power to do something about it,? Senator Feinstein said. ?It is no small feat to amend the Constitution as it has only been done only 27 times in the history of our great nation.?


I have never before supported a constitutional amendment but she does have a point


1. It's sad that this Senator doesn't understand that we are a Republic not a Democracy.

2. It's even worse that this is being rehashed in yet ANTOHER thread here.

3. If we do away with the EC, the presidency will be decided on NY and CA. No other states except maybe the home state of the candidtae will be visited. It would be stupid of them to do that.
 

NarcoticHobo

Senior member
Nov 18, 2004
442
0
0
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: NarcoticHobo
The real reason we have an electoral college is for purely logistical reasons, it is a lot easier to count 400-500 state representatives than it is to tally all of the votes from each state together, especially with the transportation and communication available during the writing of the constitution.

So, write your senators, try to get this abolished.


Not quite. The EC was created as a compromise to make it appear as though the people were electing the president, but really leaving the decision up to an elite - congress. The founding fathers believed that nobody would ever get a majority of electoral votes and therefore the choice for president and vice president would be left up to congress, not the people.

Exactly, and the reason why they thought that is because communication at the time was pitiful and so they thought the average person would not know anything about the big candidates and thus vote for someone local. So... the very reason they had this buffer was due to communication issues, which we all know (as we are talking on an internet message board) are just not a problem today.
 

NarcoticHobo

Senior member
Nov 18, 2004
442
0
0
1. It's sad that this Senator doesn't understand that we are a Republic not a Democracy.

2. It's even worse that this is being rehashed in yet ANTOHER thread here.

3. If we do away with the EC, the presidency will be decided on NY and CA. No other states except maybe the home state of the candidtae will be visited. It would be stupid of them to do that.

1. I am sure she understands that completely, but also understands there has been a push towards more direct democracy in our republic.

2. I'm sure you are right ont his one.

3. Not true, Texas has more people than NY, and both the north and south on the east coast are very populated. In fact only places like Utah or Montana would get the jip, and of course they would only be not getting attention from candidates, their votes would still be equal to everyone elses.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Holy crap. While I understand that it is in a Californian senator's best interest to move to a system of direct popular election, it also undermines everything that kept the Union apart since America was founded. What is her solution to the outrage that would follow in less populated states as they become virtual non-players in national elections? This system isn't perfect, but it's better than the other alternatives.

The same logic would dictate that the Senate be abolished and bills passed only by the House. WTF should Rhode Island get the same number of votes as California?

Of course this has not a snowball's chance in hell of actually passing. It'd require 66% of state legistlatures to pass it IIRC. Good luck with that.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Why not proportional representation of electoral votes.
ie. dems share NJ, CA votes and reps share FL, OH votes

This way you still get rural voice and millions of votes are not effectively destroyed through the process.

Upto the states to decide. Maine and Nebraska do this /gasp rural states?!?!?!?!?!?

 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
7,064
0
0
if they abolish it, states like Idaho will never know we had presidential candidates. They will look at their ballots on election day, scratch their heads and speak the words "who the fvck are these people?"
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
just as the neo-cons could avoid setting an agenda that alienates anyone who has ever studied international politics or basic economics.

Small minority here.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
The real reason we have an electoral college is for purely logistical reasons, it is a lot easier to count 400-500 state representatives than it is to tally all of the votes from each state together, especially with the transportation and communication available during the writing of the constitution.

That is a very simple way of looking at it. All the votes are counted already so what would abolishing the EC do to increase the burden?


 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
the system as it is favors the republicans (most rural states vote red) and rural states outnumber the urban states.

Right now it does. But did you know 20-30 years ago all those southern states were blue?

So one has to ask, wtf did the democrats do to lose all the southern states? Maybe instead of bending the system to the democrats. The democrats should bend to the system?

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Ok, the guys you gave a thumbs up to isn't correct. The Electoral College has absolutely nothing to do with determining the house of reps, or the senate for that matter, all of that was switched to direct election quite a while ago. Well House reps have always been done by popular vote amongst a county, where Senators were once determined by state legislatures, but like I said it has been changed.

As for trusting our founding fathers, the reason they had it was for logistical reasons, as has been said (by me and others) several times. With this in mind, the very reason we have an EC is no longer relevent.

You missed the point.

The point is each state gets as many reps as they do electoral votes.

If we destroy the EC what would stop them from destroying how many representatives from each state? Eventually California, Florida, and New York create legislation for the rest of the country. This is exactly the reasoning why we arent a direct democracy. And this is exactly why people bring up Greece as an example of why direct democracys dont work.

 

TheBDB

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2002
3,176
0
0
Originally posted by: rickn
if they abolish it, states like Idaho will never know we had presidential candidates. They will look at their ballots on election day, scratch their heads and speak the words "who the fvck are these people?"

How many times did Bush and Kerry visit Idaho this last election?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
The EC was set up originally to prevent exactly what Feinstein is attempting to do.

The founding fathers did not want the large population states to be able to control the selection of the entire United States government. They were concerned that Ma, Conn, NY and PA could run amock over the less populated states in the south.
 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
7,064
0
0
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: rickn
if they abolish it, states like Idaho will never know we had presidential candidates. They will look at their ballots on election day, scratch their heads and speak the words "who the fvck are these people?"

How many times did Bush and Kerry visit Idaho this last election?

beats me. It's not just the election, but also campaigning before the primaries. Small states will never see any presidential candidate, because their numbers will be insignifacant
 

TheBDB

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2002
3,176
0
0
I have a question for the EC supporters...you say without it the big states would dominate the election. So if there was no EC would Bush have spent all his time in the cities trying to get votes from people who don't support him? No, he would spend time in the rural areas where he could rally his base. You people don't seem to realize without the EC all votes would be the same regardless of population density. Someone like Bush could easily win a popular vote by doing OK in the urban areas but winning big in the rural areas aka. like how he did this year. Why would both candidates not campaign in EVERY state hoping to get every supporter they could?
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: NarcoticHobo
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: NarcoticHobo
The real reason we have an electoral college is for purely logistical reasons, it is a lot easier to count 400-500 state representatives than it is to tally all of the votes from each state together, especially with the transportation and communication available during the writing of the constitution.

So, write your senators, try to get this abolished.


Not quite. The EC was created as a compromise to make it appear as though the people were electing the president, but really leaving the decision up to an elite - congress. The founding fathers believed that nobody would ever get a majority of electoral votes and therefore the choice for president and vice president would be left up to congress, not the people.

Exactly, and the reason why they thought that is because communication at the time was pitiful and so they thought the average person would not know anything about the big candidates and thus vote for someone local. So... the very reason they had this buffer was due to communication issues, which we all know (as we are talking on an internet message board) are just not a problem today.


Ahh, I see what you're saying now about communications and transportation. That makes sense but my readings of documentation surrounding the writing of the constitution would lead me to believe they would have created an EC even if communication / transportation had been better.

Either way, it's time for it to go.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,434
491
126
Bush still won...he got popular vote this time.

If we didnt have the EC then the dems would want nation wide recounts over and over instead of just one state.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
The design of the EC and the Congress was intended to counterbalance the impact of the large states vs the small states.

The EC is an offshoot of the make-up of Congress and is an example of states rights to offset the Federal Government impact on the elections. Let the states determine how they want to be represented, they already draw up the congressional boundaries.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
The design of the EC and the Congress was intended to counterbalance the impact of the large states vs the small states.

The EC is an offshoot of the make-up of Congress and is an example of states rights to offset the Federal Government impact on the elections. Let the states determine how they want to be represented, they already draw up the congressional boundaries.

Not really. It was really more a ploy to keep power out of the hands of the people, states rights didn't factor into it that much.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
I have yet to see one good reason that your vote should be worth more than mine just because you live in North Dakota and I live in California. Now I keep hearing that the system is designed to prevent the big states from having a proportional amount of influence compared to the small states, but you guys seem to take it on faith that this is a good idea. I'm asking WHY is this a good idea. With a population less than San Francisco alone, why do we care so much about North Dakota? Shouldn't the value of a state be based on how many people live there?

Don't get me wrong, I understand why the system is in place...small (population) rural states don't want to be marginalized in the face of a state that has more than 10-20 times their population, who WOULD after all? It's no secret why Republicans defend the idea, THEY are the ones who would lose. But is this idea based on logic and reason? Why SHOULD we care so much about North Dakota, after all? And as for my original question, is it fair to give your vote more value than mine because of where you live?
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
0
0
It's no secret why Republicans defend the idea, THEY are the ones who would lose. But is this idea based on logic and reason? Why SHOULD we care so much about North Dakota, after all? And as for my original question, is it fair to give your vote more value than mine because of where you live?

Why, Bush won the popular vote, so if we did away with the EC he still would have won? (not flame bait, just trying to figure out why you think the repubs have more to lose than the democrats).

 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |