Abortion and Capital Punishment

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
just curious to see how the people feel about abortion/capital punishment, since both involves legilized killing. please give me explanations if you support one but not the other.

for example,
most of the people i know think that its ok to execute someone, but your evil and should be persecuted if you support the womans right to chose.
 

CountZero

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2001
1,796
36
86
'Eh, in all seriousness this is flamebait material on this board for sure.

But what you have to remember about abortion is that frequently the argument is whether or not killing a fetus at any stage is or isn't murder legalized or not. I suppose the same could be said for capital punishment, are you killing a human being or a person who has committed crimes so heinous they are really no longer human?

For what its worth I support both capital punishment (in theory) and I am pro-choice. The problem with capital punishment is the courts *are not* perfect and therefore you'd be potentially killing an innocent person. For abortion I don't believe that a fetus in the first trimester is a person and therefore deserving of rights as a person independent of the mother.
 

nutxo

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
6,789
467
126
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
just curious to see how the people feel about abortion/capital punishment, since both involves legilized killing. please give me explanations if you support one but not the other.


I expected to be in the minority as soon as I voted and I was right.

I'm not for abortion or capitol punishment.

The reason for both is the same though. I dont believe in murder of the innocent.
 

chrisms

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2003
6,615
0
0
I oppose both. Capital punishment is wrong because we will inevitably execute innocent people.
 

TheBDB

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2002
3,176
0
0
Originally posted by: chrisms
I oppose both. Capital punishment is wrong because we will inevitably execute innocent people.

We put innocent people in jail. Is jail wrong also?
 

nutxo

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
6,789
467
126
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: chrisms
I oppose both. Capital punishment is wrong because we will inevitably execute innocent people.

We put innocent people in jail. Is jail wrong also?


Yes it is wrong. What kind of question is that?

I think theres a huge difference between doing 5 years and being put to death though.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Typically this argument is used against those who support capital punishment but oppose abortion. I suppose the belief is that a baby deserves to die in the same way that a brutal, convicted killer does. Baffling, but there's the logic. Conversely, with the opposite viewpoint, it becomes that an innocent life is worthy of death while a truly twisted and perverted killer deserves to live.

Does a murderer possess the "right to choose" with someone else's life?
 

IndieSnob

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2001
1,340
0
0
While I don't really care for abortion, I still think it is a woman's choice. As for capital punishment I don't agree with it, and not because I'm a 'liberal'. I have a problem with the court system based on it's bias due to money and somewhat race. I really hate that I am opposed to capital punishment because there are people that due deserve that sort of sentence, but again with the justice system we have I don't always see it as being fair to everyone.
 

SViscusi

Golden Member
Apr 12, 2000
1,200
8
81
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: chrisms
I oppose both. Capital punishment is wrong because we will inevitably execute innocent people.

We put innocent people in jail. Is jail wrong also?

You can always get out of jail.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: SViscusi
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: chrisms
I oppose both. Capital punishment is wrong because we will inevitably execute innocent people.

We put innocent people in jail. Is jail wrong also?

You can always get out of jail.


*We put innocent people in jail. Is jail wrong also?*

As you admit the the system is flawed and innocent people are being jailed what is your thoughts about innocent people being executed. I always thought that innocent person killed willfully equals murder. So what do you do when the state murders one of it's own citizens? Since murder warrants Capital Punishment you have to execute somebody but who? The governor perhaps? Or the judge?
 

TheBDB

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2002
3,176
0
0
Originally posted by: GrGr
Originally posted by: SViscusi
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: chrisms
I oppose both. Capital punishment is wrong because we will inevitably execute innocent people.

We put innocent people in jail. Is jail wrong also?

You can always get out of jail.


*We put innocent people in jail. Is jail wrong also?*

As you admit the the system is flawed and innocent people are being jailed what is your thoughts about innocent people being executed. I always thought that innocent person killed willfully equals murder. So what do you do when the state murders one of it's own citizens? Since murder warrants Capital Punishment you have to execute somebody but who? The governor perhaps? Or the judge?

The reason for my statement was simply to point out the problem with chrisms' argument.
 

eriqesque

Senior member
Jan 4, 2002
704
0
71
Just put women in charge of the death row prisoers. They can decide who lives and dies.
Since they are the only ones with the right to choose who lives and who dies.
 

MonstaThrilla

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2000
1,652
0
0
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
just curious to see how the people feel about abortion/capital punishment, since both involves legilized killing.

I don't think abortion is legalized killing, but I think it shows a failure of personal responsibility by both the man and woman. I don't think the judiciary branch of government should be authorized to kill people.

Just my opinion...
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
3,637
0
0
Originally posted by: datalink7
curious if someone supports one but not the other

Why are you curious when they are two totally seperate issues with no connection what so ever?

Well they both involve killing a defenseless person, so I would say they have a strong connection.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
I do not support government sponsored murder.

If I were a woman, I would want to be able to say when and where I reproduce.
 

nutxo

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
6,789
467
126
Originally posted by: GrGr
Originally posted by: SViscusi
Originally posted by: TheBDB
Originally posted by: chrisms
I oppose both. Capital punishment is wrong because we will inevitably execute innocent people.

We put innocent people in jail. Is jail wrong also?

You can always get out of jail.


*We put innocent people in jail. Is jail wrong also?*

As you admit the the system is flawed and innocent people are being jailed what is your thoughts about innocent people being executed. I always thought that innocent person killed willfully equals murder. So what do you do when the state murders one of it's own citizens? Since murder warrants Capital Punishment you have to execute somebody but who? The governor perhaps? Or the judge?

A judge cannot be prosecuted or sued for a flawed judgement. A public official cannot be prosecuted or sued for enforcing the law. If they could judges and police would be afraid to arrest or prosecute anyone.

You would have a moratorium on capitol punishment I suppose.
 

Wolfdog

Member
Aug 25, 2001
187
0
0
I think the real issue behind capitol punishment is that you can hardly ever be fully sure that a person has commited a crime. In the times that someone is caught dead to rights, either by video or some sort of other failsafe means than they should be punished to fit the crime. The problem with that is though, who decides what should get the death penality anyway? There have been too many times that the court system has killed people that never perpetrated the crime in the first place. Yet there is no recourse if they kill an innocent person. Whoops, sucks to be you. Sorry doesn't cut it to the families of wrongly convicted individuals. How about making the judges and government personally liable in death row cases? If they screw up they should be seriously punished, just like every other person in our society that makes the wrong decision. That would start a self regualtion by the officials. There are a few people out there that should be gotten rid of. Manson comes to mind. He will never be sucessfully brought back into society , and taxpayers are paying his room and board for a seriously sick individual. I want a machine that can scan into the human brain and show live footage of the act before I could ever commit a human being to be executed. Thats the only way that anyone could ever be sure that they had done the crime.

On the issue of abortion, I am ferverently against its use as a means of birth control. There are only a few cases which it should be deemed available. When a woman is raped, she should get a choice. When a woman has a serious medical complication and the child won't survive along with the mother. As it stands there is way too much abortion as a means of birth control. Which ends up being senseless killing. Sorry to say in the molecular biological field, life begins when the sperm impregnates the egg. So if they don't want a child don't have sex. Easy as that.
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
6
81
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: datalink7
curious if someone supports one but not the other

Why are you curious when they are two totally seperate issues with no connection what so ever?

Well they both involve killing a defenseless person, so I would say they have a strong connection.

Eating apples and eating grapes both involve eating a fruit, but whether people like the taste of one or the other or both or neither doesn't have a strong connection.
 

OFFascist

Senior member
Jun 10, 2002
985
0
0
I support both, but depending on the circumstances of the abortion I reserve the right to consider the woman a stupid whore who wasted a life, her time, her money, and put herself thought a needless medical procedure.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
I am opposed to capitol punishment primarily because there is no recourse when innocent people are executed. One of the primary reasons used to support it is that it is a deterrent. This is almost never the case however. Most murders fall into 3 catagories: a crime of passion (where acting in hot blood does not allow for the consideration of consequences), during the commission of another crime (where the weapon is used as a threat but is too handy if the purpetrator becomes threatened), people with mental defect (who either don't appreciate the consequences, have no care at all for the consequences, or feel that they of such superior intellgence that they cannot be caught and will never face the consequences). Revenge is the only plausible argument for capitol punishment, and I'm not particularly comfortable with my government(s) being in the revenge business. I am not opposed to penalties that exceed rehabilitation for certain crimes. Properly applied, they can be a deterrent.

I am not opposed to abortion. I have no reason to believe that some magic takes place at conception, conferring a soul on a cell. I do not believe the term "unborn child" has any true meaning. A fetus is not yet born and is not a child by any ordinary definition of the word child. I see no reason to limit a woman's reproductve choices.
 

nutxo

Diamond Member
May 20, 2001
6,789
467
126
Originally posted by: datalink7
Originally posted by: Spencer278
Originally posted by: datalink7
curious if someone supports one but not the other

Why are you curious when they are two totally seperate issues with no connection what so ever?

Well they both involve killing a defenseless person, so I would say they have a strong connection.

Eating apples and eating grapes both involve eating a fruit, but whether people like the taste of one or the other or both or neither doesn't have a strong connection.

Grape juice usually has apple juice in it to preserve flavor and it mimics the flavor of grapes.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
I am opposed to capitol punishment primarily because there is no recourse when innocent people are executed. One of the primary reasons used to support it is that it is a deterrent. This is almost never the case however. Most murders fall into 3 catagories: a crime of passion (where acting in hot blood does not allow for the consideration of consequences), during the commission of another crime (where the weapon is used as a threat but is too handy if the purpetrator becomes threatened), people with mental defect (who either don't appreciate the consequences, have no care at all for the consequences, or feel that they of such superior intellgence that they cannot be caught and will never face the consequences). Revenge is the only plausible argument for capitol punishment, and I'm not particularly comfortable with my government(s) being in the revenge business. I am not opposed to penalties that exceed rehabilitation for certain crimes. Properly applied, they can be a deterrent.

Your "3 categories" are completely inadequate. What about the case recently prosecuted in Belgium of child killer Dutroux? His crimes do not fall in your categories whatsoever, and he is responsible for the deaths of three girls (and the sexual exploitation and imprisonment of two others). The death penalty is designed for the punishment and removal from society of cold-blooded killers of innocent people, particularly those murderers whose crime is particularly brutal, premeditated, and gruesome. Most death penalty cases that I have seen do NOT involve crimes of passion, mentally deficient murderers or felony murder as you imply. Do Timothy McVeigh and Ted Bundy ring any bells (Dahmer should have received it, too, but Wisconsin doesn't have the death penalty)?

Saying a sociopath has a "mental defect" is tantamount to excusing the behavior. They know full what they are doing and the consequences of their actions if caught, but they do it anyway. That's not a mental defect -- that's pure evil.
 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
0
0
Originally posted by: Siddhartha
If I were a woman, I would want to be able to say when and where I reproduce.

the government isnt telling you when and where you can reproduce, its telling you what you can do with the results. you know whats going to happen, own up to the repsonsibility of your actions.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Here's the rub. There are a myriad of public health initiatives that could be employed to DRAMATICALLY reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies (many of which end as abortions). Yet many of the very people opposed to abortion opposed the most effective means of preventing unplanned pregnancies. Effective refers to results in actual application as opposed to "efficacy" which reflects perfect application ie the most efficacious means of preventing unplanned pregnancies is abstinence but as typically practiced abstinence doesn't get the job done).

Capital punishment is another example of philosophy overwelming some people's ability for thought. On the pro-side, it would make sense to use capital punishment if it 1) actually worked as a societal deterrent to violent crime, 2) was administered without bias, and 3) killing people for killing other people was a morally defensible position. #1 only works if you count deterrence for the individual being executed. Otherwise, capital punishment has not decreased violent crime or crime in general. To date the most powerful deterrent to crime is economic upward mobility . . . well except for executives and politicians.

#2 is clearly false. Kill a white person your odds increase. Poor . . . your odds increase. Just happen to be in the state of TX . . . your odds increase.

#3 requires a certain degree of mental contortion. It would be a TOTALLY different issue if you could revive the victim by killing the perpetrator. I would support that capital punishment policy. Why? Because it isn't punishment . . . it's righting a wrong. The typical application of the death penalty is not justice . . . it's revenge.

For those opposed to the death penalty, they must be willing to concede that some people MUST be removed from society PERMANENTLY. Life in prison will cost 30-40k a year and considering many offenders are young adult males . . . we are talking some serious cheddar for long term incarceration. Why should society bear such a burden? Why not give that money to the victim's family and give the perp the guillotine?
 
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