ABORTION - Why we know what we're doing is wrong.

[ThisIsMatt]

<<

<< There's no logical reason to have seperate ethics for Human life and 'other' life.

Sadly, we're saddled with human and civil rights... instad of being logical! DUH! >>


You're making no sense at all.

This is not about civil rights, this is about fair and just treatment.

Why do we make a difference between Humans and other animals when we're talking about abortion?!
Why do we make a difference between Humans and other animals when we're talking about euthanasia?!

Do most Humans have a superiority complex? Yup.
Could most Humans care less about their environment? Yup.

Life is life is life. There's no superior form of life, and even if there was one, there would be no reason to make this the 'elite' organism, with more rights. >>

So in other words, you're for abortion because we kill other animals? That's exactly what you just said. But, you also say that humans are really no different from animals. So, what about all the animals who kill other animals for food? You think they're going to become vegitarians? You think at one time they were vegitarians? I doubt it.

The Siamese twin thing, I have no answer for, that's a very difficult decision to make.

<< Do most Humans have a superiority complex? Yup. >>

Yes, you're right, and we have you for a prime example.

 

[xirtam]

<< Are you a friggin' moron? Do you value injustice over justice?!? >>



No. First, what is justice, and what makes it so valuable? Does justice exist? Can you prove it scientifically?

 

[jpucci1]

<< Not again.

Look, abortion is going to happen, legal or not. The only way you're going to minimize it is to minimize unwanted pregnancies.

Besides, this makes a damn good argument for keeping abortion legal. >>



so whats next? herion cocaine?

 

[Alex]

im pro abortion. i think that its wronger to bring a child into the world that you dont want. i mean how good are you gonna treat a kid thats a mistake? what if youre not ready for one, have no knowledge, money etc to bring it up...

 

[Radiation]

<< For example the question I asked much earlier in this thread and on which I never received any reply, a Siamese twin, who share on heart. They can't survive outside the womb, so either one is sacrificed, or they both die. >>



The last report I read said there is a 47% success rate (where one survives) in thoracopagus twins (conjoined twins sharing a heart). However, 100% of the "successes" ended in the "lucky" sibling living less than 18 months. In 85% of all cases of reported thoracopagus twins, congenital heart disease is present. The study was based on the last 80 something separations performed in the US, and I think that the report was published by Chui in 1998. It is an extremely sad situation

I can't say that there is a good answer to your question, since death is certain and soon for most cases. I'm not sure how you are trying to relate this decision to that of abortion. In one, you are trying to extend/grant life, and the other you are only taking life. You can relate it to the possibility of a mother surviving childbirth, whether you save the mother or the baby when one will die in the process of childbirth.

Radiation

 

[MikeD]

<< im pro abortion. i think that its wronger to bring a child into the world that you dont want. i mean how good are you gonna treat a kid thats a mistake? what if youre not ready for one, have no knowledge, money etc to bring it up... >>



Adoption maybe?

 

[Radiation]

<< An embryo developing outside the womb in the Fallopian tube. Without an abortion, the mother risks death. What is your choice? >>



With ectopic pregnancy, there is a VERY small chance that the mother would die, and an even smaller chance that the baby would survive. All documented cases of a successful delivery involve the fallopian tube rupturing and the embryo attaching to the uterus (or that area). Anyway, the situation is only potentially life threatening, the odds of a death relating to ectopic pregnancy is almost as low as the risk of death from a normal pregnancy.

Radiation

 

[superfluousmonkeys]

<< Anyway, the situation is only potentially life threatening, the odds of a death relating to ectopic pregnancy is almost as low as the risk of death from a normal pregnancy. >>




Bullsh*t. My sister had this and the docs freaked and rushed her into emergency surgery. They told me she was lucky to be alive but not to be to optimistic. I was like WTF. She survived but it was scary.

I know abortion is right cuz my 8 ball says so.

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< Are you a friggin' moron? Do you value injustice over justice?!? >>



No. First, what is justice, and what makes it so valuable? Does justice exist? Can you prove it scientifically? >>


A just treatment/behaviour is based on pure logic. No language can be used to explain it, since no language is anywhere near being objective (pure logic is objective).

Punishment is one example of injustice and often ignorance. It's a result of a purely emotional response (vengeance, revenge, vendetta, call it whatever you want).

BTW, I truly hope that you're not serious about asking what use justice has.

 

[Elledan]

<<

<<

<< There's no logical reason to have seperate ethics for Human life and 'other' life.

Sadly, we're saddled with human and civil rights... instad of being logical! DUH! >>


You're making no sense at all.

This is not about civil rights, this is about fair and just treatment.

Why do we make a difference between Humans and other animals when we're talking about abortion?!
Why do we make a difference between Humans and other animals when we're talking about euthanasia?!

Do most Humans have a superiority complex? Yup.
Could most Humans care less about their environment? Yup.

Life is life is life. There's no superior form of life, and even if there was one, there would be no reason to make this the 'elite' organism, with more rights. >>

So in other words, you're for abortion because we kill other animals? >>

Nope, it was an off-topic discussion about the different ethics we use when dealing with Humans and other animals.


<< That's exactly what you just said. But, you also say that humans are really no different from animals. >>

Do you deny that Humans are animals?


<< So, what about all the animals who kill other animals for food? You think they're going to become vegitarians? >>

Don't be silly. They've no choice but to live like that. Predators & prey, remember? They've to get their food from somewhere.


<< You think at one time they were vegitarians? I doubt it. >>

Humans are beyond the mental capatibilities of other/most animals, therefore we've a greater responsibility.



<< The Siamese twin thing, I have no answer for, that's a very difficult decision to make. >>

It's not that hard.


<<

<< Do most Humans have a superiority complex? Yup. >>

Yes, you're right, and we have you for a prime example. >>

Wow, smartass.

 

[Mats]

1. It is a fact that most woman during or after an abortion are in denial.

2. When an aborton takes place the so called 'fetus' is often quite aware of what's happening.


Goodbye.

 

[Radiation]

<< Bullsh*t. My sister had this and the docs freaked and rushed her into emergency surgery. They told me she was lucky to be alive but not to be to optimistic. I was like WTF. She survived but it was scary. >>



So she was one of the cases were it was life threatening, my statement is true whether you like it or not. Potentially life threatening means that it is life threatening to some. Hundreds of women each day are rushed into emergency surgery for normal pregnancy.

I'm glad you sister made it through it alive, I know how scary any pregnancy related complications can be.

Radiation

 

[ThisIsMatt]

<<

<<

<<

<< There's no logical reason to have seperate ethics for Human life and 'other' life.

Sadly, we're saddled with human and civil rights... instad of being logical! DUH! >>


You're making no sense at all.

This is not about civil rights, this is about fair and just treatment.

Why do we make a difference between Humans and other animals when we're talking about abortion?!
Why do we make a difference between Humans and other animals when we're talking about euthanasia?!

Do most Humans have a superiority complex? Yup.
Could most Humans care less about their environment? Yup.

Life is life is life. There's no superior form of life, and even if there was one, there would be no reason to make this the 'elite' organism, with more rights. >>

So in other words, you're for abortion because we kill other animals? >>

Nope, it was an off-topic discussion about the different ethics we use when dealing with Humans and other animals.


<< That's exactly what you just said. But, you also say that humans are really no different from animals. >>

Do you deny that Humans are animals?


<< So, what about all the animals who kill other animals for food? You think they're going to become vegitarians? >>

Don't be silly. They've no choice but to live like that. Predators & prey, remember? They've to get their food from somewhere.


<< You think at one time they were vegitarians? I doubt it. >>

Humans are beyond the mental capatibilities of other/most animals, therefore we've a greater responsibility.



<< The Siamese twin thing, I have no answer for, that's a very difficult decision to make. >>

It's not that hard.


<<

<< Do most Humans have a superiority complex? Yup. >>

Yes, you're right, and we have you for a prime example. >>

Wow, smartass. >>

Man, you are so backasswards. You cry about logic and then completely blow it out of the water yourself. You've totally contradicted yourself over and over. No, I'm not going to point out where because you'll just have another bs response like usual.

 

[lebe0024]

Don't be too hard on Elledan. After all, he's just a genius who is restricted by language.

 

[bandXtrb]

<< After all, he's just a genius who is restricted by language. >>

hehehe. True. Its weird that he believes in justice and injustice, yet good and evil dont' exist.

Anyway, I did get something out of this thread. It reminded me of the fact that lots of animals are slaughtered for food, so abortion doesn't look like a big deal. I don't find an unborn child to be worth more than a living cow. And this totally knocks out the argument about the pain a baby suffers during abortion, since animals suffer this pain under much more inhumane conditions. When the entire world becomes vegeterian, we'll talk.

 

[ThisIsMatt]

<< Don't be too hard on Elledan. After all, he's just a genius who is restricted by language. >>

Ah, I forgot, forgive me!

 

[mattyrug]

Sorry to get a little ot, but....
<< An embryo developing outside the womb in the Fallopian tube. Without an abortion, the mother risks death. What is your choice? >>

< With ectopic pregnancy, there is a VERY small chance that the mother would die, and an even smaller chance that the baby would survive. All documented cases of a successful delivery involve the fallopian tube rupturing and the embryo attaching to the uterus (or that area). Anyway, the situation is only potentially life threatening, the odds of a death relating to ectopic pregnancy is almost as low as the risk of death from a normal pregnancy. >

Where did u read this?? Sounds like Religious propoganda to me. U need to do some research my friend, SERIOUSLY! I hate to say this, but my Girlfriend and I went through this ordeal. There is ABSOLUTELY no way to save the baby. And how could one survive a major Hemmorage for more than a week or two?? We found out because she almost died. And BTW an abortion, or 'Removal' of the fetus (salpingotomy, as it's called) is inevitable in this case, there has NEVER been a documented case of an Ectopic being delivered alive, or being delivered for that matter. They would have to transplant the baby to the Uterus, after repairing or altogether removing (salpingectomy) of the Falopian Tube. It's been tried, but never successfully done. Read me, Ectopic FAQ's There is no way that this could be survived by either mother or baby, carrying it to full term.

 

[Sundaygirl]

<<It's a human being! Don't get me wrong, a woman has a RIGHT NOT TO BE PREGNANT! An unborn baby HAS A RIGHT NOT TO BE KILLED. Two competing rights, what do you do? I think the life of one human being outweighs the right not to be pregnant. >>

I am a woman. I like having rights to make decisions about what happens inside my body. I like having the right to decide for myself if what is inside me is a life or not. I am fully capable of making an ethical decision.
Congratulations on coming to terms with your religion. Please keep in mind that others have religious beliefs too. They may seem contrary to what is right for you, but others have come to believe in what they believe in just as a profound way. For some, the right to choose is morally right. People who are pro choice are not going to go out and ruin the world. There are some much scarier people with deeply held religious beliefs whom highjack planes and are working on that task right now.

 

[Cpt. Duke]

Let's not forget that people are animals too.

 

[Ornery]

"For some, the right to choose is morally right."

There's a a woman who drowned her children. She may have felt what she did was "morally" right. Maybe it was, but our laws say otherwise. Personally, I believe children need the protection of the law as much or more than any other citizen. To extend that protection to those about to be born is not an obscene goal. To view the unborn as citizens is not a far stretch. If humans are entitled to human rights, and the unborn are human, then the unborn are entitled to human rights. Sort of logical, no?

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< If humans are entitled to human rights, and the unborn are human, then the unborn are entitled to human rights. Sort of logical, no? >>


It's called compromise. We won't be able to solve this problem fully by legislating the legality of abortion alone. Don't think for one moment that banning abortion is some panacea. There is a steep social cost involved with banning the practice so we need not rush headlong simply to appease uncompromising theists...especially when the majority of Americans support reproductive choice.

Is abortion a clean and tidy practice? No. Few claim that it is. But the practice reflects modern realities and is necessary because abstinence and adoption are insufficient mechanisms for dealing with unwanted unborn children.

Legalized abortions are a reasonable compromise because it is up to the individual woman to decide whether abortion is the proper choice for her. No one is forced to have an abortion if they find it objectionable.

I also do not consider unborn fetuses to be living children/citizens. This distinction mandates that the mother has overriding rights in determining whether the fetus should be brought to term or not.

 

[Ornery]

"...simply to appease uncompromising theists..."

Nothing to do with theists, just human rights. Keep it simple...

And I'll be the first to admit it's a HUGE can of worms. A MASSIVE Pandora's box! I KNOW this! Can you imagine how tidy life would be if we could simply drown our troubled children? It would cut down on welfare, overcrowded schools, crime... the whole deal! I think you get my drift...

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< Nothing to do with theists, just human rights. Keep it simple... >>


I contribute to Amnesty International and abhor the death penalty, both in the interest of human rights, but don't find the same feelings for abortion abolition because fetuses are not "alive", i.e. they could not exist outside of the mother's womb. A newborn wouldn't last very long on its own, but it COULD exist if properly cared for. A fetus just hasn't progressed far enough to be "raised" in a hospital. It needs the mother, it is therefore not "alive".


<< And I'll be the first to admit it's a HUGE can of worms. A MASSIVE Pandora's box! I KNOW this! Can you imagine how tidy life would be if we could simply drown our troubled children? It would cut down on welfare, overcrowded schools, crime... the whole deal! I think you get my drift... >>


Again, troubled children are separate living entities. Fetuses are not.

 

[Ornery]

Fetus, patient... same thing. You couldn't legally turn off life support for somebody in a coma, and dependent on machines. Maybe that day will come, though. Will you be fighting for that too?

 

[brjames]

Sigh, the abortion debate gets me so depressed. I am strongly pro-life and every time I think of the millions of babies that are killed (aborted) each year it makes me want to cry. The only way I can live a normal life is to try and not think about it. Nobody's gonna convince anybody out there that abortion is wrong in this thread, but it seemed like lebe0024 is doing all of the talking and I just wanted to say that I am in complete agreement with him (as far as I've read). Not much, but it helps to know youre not the only one out there with an unpopular point of view.