ABORTION - Why we know what we're doing is wrong.

[Amused]

<< "And the VERY right wing organizations you subscribe to "

I would vote democrat for everything if democrats were pro-life.

"when you people are the same ones that have thrown it in everyone's face for so long."

I don't know what you're talking about. I just puke at the idea of abortion for being an evolutionary tool. >>



Who said it was being used as an evolutionary tool? Show me a verifiable and active conspiracy to do so.

That's right, it's all in your head.

Meanwhile, the pro-life movement is rooted in the right wing movement. However, that you would sell women into slavery AND support socialist nonsense doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

 

[lebe0024]

You said:

"Besides, this makes a darn good argument to keep abortion legal."

The this refers to an artical entitled "The aborted crime wave?", and then gives evidence to support the claim that crime rate is down because abortion boomed 18 years ago.

 

[lebe0024]

Sell women into slavery? What are you talking about? I simply want the death to stop.

 

[abaez]

lebe, what constitutes as being alive to you? I mean if something is alive it has to have something correct? Like certain characteristics, so tell me what is being alive mean.

 

[Elledan]

- Abortion is a mere tool.
- Like with every tool, the existance of the tool doesn't depend on any kind of morality or ethics. It just is.
- Only the way in which the tool is used can be morally and ethically 'just' or 'wrong'.
- If I use a hammer to build a piece of furnature, it's morally and ethically 'just'.
- If I use the same hammer to smash someone's skull with, it's morally and ethically 'wrong'.

- There are pregnancies during which serious complications occur, which might lead to the death of the mother.
- The use of abortion is in this case justified.

- There are pregnancies whereby is known that the child suffers or will suffer from a serious genetical disease.
- Many of these diseases will lead to the death of the child preceding or occurring shortly after the birth.
- Hereby abortion is justified, because it saves the parents from a lot of grief and (physical) inconvenience.
- In some cases, the child might live 5-25 years, or even longer.
- These diseases are usually degenerative diseases, whereby the physical and/or mental condition of the child gets only worse.
- Abortion is in this case merely an act of mercy; saving the child from a short life filled with pain and suffering.

- Unwanted ('accidental') pregnancies are quite common.
- In the case of rape etc., abortion is both morally and ethically justified.
- In all other cases, unless one of the above described situations occurs, abortion is not the right choice.
- One should focus on eliminating the reasons for these unwanted pregnancies instead of outlawing abortion.

And finally:

- sex is not a recreational activity, it is a means of reproduction.

 

[Amused]

<< You said:

"Besides, this makes a darn good argument to keep abortion legal."

The this refers to an artical entitled "The aborted crime wave?", and then gives evidence to support the claim that crime rate is down because abortion boomed 18 years ago. >>



Yes, there is a correlation. What's your point? How is that "evolutionary?"

 

[lebe0024]

<< lebe, what constitutes as being alive to you? I mean if something is alive it has to have something correct? Like certain characteristics, so tell me what is being alive mean. >>



1) Once the genetic code is complete, it is a human being. If the zygote is a dead cell, it is a dead human being. If it's alive and being nurished by its mother, it is an alive unborn one-celled human being. So, I believe that a zygote is a human being, and wether or not that human being is alive or dead depends on if the zygote is alive or dead.

 

[lebe0024]

Amused One, I don't think it's biological evolution. I think it's trying to rid ourselves of potential criminals by encouraging the abortions within poorer families. And you think it's a good idea! That's what your suggesting. I didn't make that up, and you know it. If I'm wrong, then what did you mean by "here's a good reason to keep abortion legal?"

 

[Ciber]

<< lol, you should see some of the pro life nutz, if you ask em if they would choose the life of their wife over the baby they would choose the baby love it! >>



if i had to choose between my wife and a baby which neither of us has even met and itself isnt even aware that it's alive, i would choose my wife without giving it a second thought. i mean why in the world would i give up my wife that i love and have known for years for something that as far as i know is just a lump on my wife's stomach? we can replace the unborn baby which we never knew, by getting pregnant again, but i could never replace my wife.

 

[cressida]

ne more?

 

[abaez]

Once the genetic code is complete, it is a human being

So anything with a complete genetic code is alive? So if a scientist joins a sperm and an egg in a petri dish, with a complete genetic code, it's alive.

 

[Elledan]

Pro-life people are hypocrits. They consider Human life to be more precious than the lifes of other animals, thereby discrediting their statement that they're against the 'destruction of life'.

Besides, I still have to see proof of the 'sanctitiy of life'.

 

[IGBT]

What's this I hear that hand wringing bible types always fail to discus over-population issues and are the last in line when it comes to adoption..and are gleefuly encouraging minors to give birth at every opportunity..and fail to realize sexual activity is recreational with child birth a side effect.

 

[Double Trouble]

.... the part that I don't get is: Why the heck do people keep trying to convince other people that their view is the right one? I have my view, and that's the end of it, I'm not going around trying to find propaganda for it to try to pursuade people, and I don't care about convincing others that it's the only 'right' view.

Nobody in these silly abortion debate things will ever succeed in convincing someone on the 'other side' because there is no scientific 'right' or 'correct' answer. It comes down to your opinion, your emotions, and you can't force other people to share your opinion.

 

[Moonbeam]

Abortion should be illegal just as soon as the father of any child that a mother doesn't want faces manditory execution.

 

[Nemesis77]

The "morning-after" pill is a lame, LAME example! Why should it be morally questionable to take a morning-after pill that prevents a group of cells (who are unable to feel or think) from attaching to the wall of the uterus? I don't have bad conscience when I take antibiotics that kill millions of viruses.

Repeat after me: sperm is not sentient. They cannot feel or think. neither is the female egg that the sperm fertilizes. The resulting group of cell is NOT, I repeat, is NOT a person! It cannot think, it cannot perceive it's surrounding it cannot feel. Removing those cells from a body is not "killing". If that was the case, each and every one of us would be a mass-murderer, because we have all at one time or another taken antibiotics that kill viruses.

 

[BDawg]

<< 3. Size Is Irrelevant in Determining Personhood >>



Lebe0024,

Regardless what she has told you to keep your feelings from getting hurt, size does matter.

 

[mithrandir2001]

Abortion may be "wrong", but it may not be any more wrong than bringing an unwanted pregnancy to fruition. In either case, you can point to something negative.

It only seems logical to keep the practice legal and allow each mother's situation and ethical code determine what is best for them.

 

[Amused]

<< Amused One, I don't think it's biological evolution. I think it's trying to rid ourselves of potential criminals by encouraging the abortions within poorer families. And you think it's a good idea! That's what your suggesting. I didn't make that up, and you know it. If I'm wrong, then what did you mean by "here's a good reason to keep abortion legal?" >>



Who said only poor women are having abortions? From what I see, poor famlies are having a LOT more kids than rich ones. So there goes that little pile of paranoia. When did I say only poor women should have abortions? Do you have to be poor to have an unwanted pregnancy? Nope.

There are unwanted and abused children from both rich and poor backgrounds, and a LOT of rich, pregenant teens have abortions, too

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Pro-choice or pro-life, you have to look at the logistics of the matter. If abortions were outlawed, you'd get:

1. Abortions performed on the black market, unsafely and by unqualified people.
2. More birth defects from people attempting to self-abort through alcohol, drugs, etc.
3. More unwanted children either being traded around foster homes or neglected by their natural parents.

Morals are always debatable, but what makes logical sense isn't. And if anyone has any counter-arguements other than 'abortion is just wrong,' I'd genuinely like to see them, because I can't think of any myself.

 

[bandXtrb]

<< Pro-life people are hypocrits. They consider Human life to be more precious than the lifes of other animals, thereby discrediting their statement that they're against the 'destruction of life'. >>


How true. Think of all the living animals that are slaughtered for our hamburgers every day, and yet an unborn human child is such an issue. Ridiciulous.

 

[lebe0024]

"So if a scientist joins a sperm and an egg in a petri dish, with a complete genetic code, it's alive."
Yes, but if it stays in a petry dish it will die.

"Pro-life people are hypocrits. They consider Human life to be more precious than the lifes of other animals, thereby discrediting their statement that they're against the 'destruction of life'."
I do hold humans at a higher dignity than the other animals. Humans have a higher dignity than ants. That doesn't mean I'm for the destruction of life.

"hand wringing bible types always fail to discus over-population issues and are the last in line when it comes to adoption..and are gleefuly encouraging minors to give birth at every opportunity..and fail to realize sexual activity is recreational with child birth a side effect. "
Have I said otherwise. I LOVE adoption. I don't encourage minors to give birth at every oportunity. And maybe someday I will have sex understanding that child birth is a side affect. And if my wife get's pregnanty with a child, we will not murder it, even if we don't know how yet to take care of it.

"The "morning-after" pill is a lame, LAME example! Why should it be morally questionable to take a morning-after pill that prevents a group of cells (who are unable to feel or think) from attaching to the wall of the uterus? I don't have bad conscience when I take antibiotics that kill millions of viruses."
The ability to think and feel does not define a human being. There are many humans that cannot think and feel that are not being killed. AND there are fetuses that can think and feel that are being killed every day. Both are human.

Amused one: Your point was that we should keep abortion legal, so that we help keep the crime rate down.

"1. Abortions performed on the black market, unsafely and by unqualified people.
2. More birth defects from people attempting to self-abort through alcohol, drugs, etc.
3. More unwanted children either being traded around foster homes or neglected by their natural parents."
Legalization of abortion is not the answer though. You can't remove something bad by declaring it's good. Abortion isn't good for anybody.


I define a genetically complete and alive zygote as an alive, developing human being; because, I don't think there's anyway else you can appropriately define it during pregnancy. You can't say it's human after a 6 cm journey through the birth canal. You can't define it as a human when it responds to pain. You can't define it as a human if it has a developed brain, because you can be human being without having a developed brain. Its human from the moment of conception. Just leave it alone, and it will continue to develop its whole life. The link outlines these arguments better than me, so don't respond me, respond to the sermon.

 

[flavio]

My cat can eat a whole watermelon

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

<< "1. Abortions performed on the black market, unsafely and by unqualified people.
2. More birth defects from people attempting to self-abort through alcohol, drugs, etc.
3. More unwanted children either being traded around foster homes or neglected by their natural parents."
Legalization of abortion is not the answer though. You can't remove something bad by declaring it's good. Abortion isn't good for anybody. >>



WHY is it not good for anybody??? WHAT would be better if it was outlawed??? And when did having something legal declare it as good??? Is prostitution bad in every state except for Nevada, where it is good? I want to at least understand your argument, I really do, but you can't give any facts or rational reasoning to back it up, other than your opinion that it is wrong, and your opinion of what constitutes a human life.

 

[lebe0024]

I'm fighting against the notion that we can only defeat those things by making abortion legal. That's my point. Killing human beings should never be the answer.