ABORTION - Why we know what we're doing is wrong.

[fjorner]

didn't listen to the sermon. I'm not prolife because a church says so.

Anyway, you think you know the fear of pregnancy?

I was a college student for approximately a month before my girlfriend told me she was pregnant. No more fear, just terrifying reality.

And we didn't even think about abortion. I'm happy to say that killing off an innocent child to prevent difficulty in our lives didn't cross our minds. We could have gotten an abortion, gone on with our college days.

Now, two years later, I'm the happiest man alive. My daughter is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. My girlfriend, now my wife of a little over a year, and I have changed our lives drastically. For the better? Who knows. But I doubt that I would be any better a man or any happier a person without my daughter.

But, I also know that our situation was not the norm. A lot of times the couple can't stay together through the stress. We almost didn't. We had many screaming matches, except our arguments were over adoption, not abortion. We're blessed and fortunate that my daughter was born healthy and without complications. We are blessed and fortunate that our love and friendship has lasted through the turmoil. We're very blessed and fortunate that our families really did 180 degree turns in their attitudes, that I've been able to keep my scholarship at school, and that my wife has been able to find a steady full-time job.

I'm not an especially religious man at all, having rarely gone to church since moving out. I don't want to tell you guys that keeping the baby is the best way. In many situations, especially one which I'm seeing right now with a friend from high school, the best option for the baby's health would be adoption. There are hundreds of thousands of couples in America who cannot become pregnant.

In fact, my story may come full circle in the future. My wife may need surgery if we want to have another child, if everything works out okay. Chances are that we won't be able to have another child naturally because of complications from my wife's c-section. There's something wrong with her uterus, something she's had all her life. If we do want to have another child, we might have to adopt. It will be at that time that we will be praying that a young woman who just got to college decides against abortion, and with her baby's best interests in mind, walks into an adoption agency rather than an abortion clinic.

 

[Elledan]

<<

<<
I see no reason to call us Humans superior to animals. >>


because we have opposable(sp?) thumbs. >>


And what are those going to do against a fast, hungry predator with razorsharp claws and teeth and the strength of four men

What is an advantage in certain situations might prove to be useless or even a disadvantage in other situations. Humans are physically inferior to most animals. Strip a couple of Humans of everything (clothes, weapons etc.) and set them in front of a hungry grizzly bear. We've seen in an earlier thread what would happen to those Humans

 

[linuxboy]

'Sanctity of life' is something made up by theists

What I think you're implying is that the idea of an objective ethical stance attesting to the value and universality of upholding life itself as inviolable is an assertion that has causal properties tracing directly somehow to not only ideas of theism but to the theists themselves. I assume you want to go back to the beginnings of theism (whenever that was) and wish to attribute this idea to those foundations, since religion and ritual, as you have claimed in the past, were a vital part of "primitive" societies.

I question that. I question that for the reason that it is illogical to claim probablistic knowledge, at best, of the causes of a particular idea or moral valuation with regard to the claim of sanctity as spawned by theists. To claim such a thing may certainly be sufficient, but I think we get to the point of disjuctive fallacy here. That is, I can claim any sorts of numbers of "or" statements and iff one of those are true, we can derive the inferential claim. Yet your assertion is not any better than anyone else's, especially once we get to causality, which is more complex than mere inferential conclusions.

So I question your blatant and self-assured statement that theism was indeed the cause of this idea and valuation of life. Moreover, I claim that life itself as valued as somehow sacred and wonderful is not in relation to anything but itself, therefore creating necessary-and-sufficient reasons to claim that this value is an objective one, assuming one accepts my interpretation of reality.

Cheers !

 

[Geekbabe]

Hmmm... I see lots of huffing and puffing.. and very little of it from the gender who will have to do the actual work of carrying the child and in many cases the bulk of the work in rearing and supporting it. Funny too, how some of the most strongly held opinions are coming from guys who's closest actual contact with a woman will be via a 2d image in a magazine or on their monitor screen.

 

[KeithWriter]

Okay - here's a litmus test:

Is the number of Pro-Life bumperstickers on your car larger or smaller than the number of unwanted children YOU personally have adopted?

If it's smaller, good for you - you're the exception.

If it's larger, STFU.

(which rhymes with Shut The Truck Up)

 

[lebe0024]

<< - If I use a hammer to build a piece of furnature, it's morally and ethically 'just'.
- If I use the same hammer to smash someone's skull with, it's morally and ethically 'wrong'.
How about if I use a pair of scissors to stab a baby through the head and suck out its brains with a vacuum cleaner? OK in the case of rape? >>
You've no idea how an abortion is done, have you?

I didn't know about the details of Partial birt Abortions until yesturday.

Details here - one thing to note, while sucking out the brains, negative pressure results in the head, and the baby's skull colapses.

They're held up by the US Supreme court. Some states tried to ban them, but the ALCU went to the supreme court and now all bans lifted. I wont even get started about saline abortions.

WHY CANT ANYONE SEE THE FUNDAMENTAL EVIL IN THIS???

 

[Elledan]

<< 'Sanctity of life' is something made up by theists

What I think you're implying is that the idea of an objective ethical stance attesting to the value and universality of upholding life itself as inviolable is an assertion that has causal properties tracing directly somehow to not only ideas of theism but to the theists themselves. I assume you want to go back to the beginnings of theism (whenever that was) and wish to attribute this idea to those foundations, since religion and ritual, as you have claimed in the past, were a vital part of "primitive" societies.

I question that. I question that for the reason that it is illogical to claim probablistic knowledge, at best, of the causes of a particular idea or moral valuation with regard to the claim of sanctity as spawned by theists. To claim such a thing may certainly be sufficient, but I think we get to the point of disjuctive fallacy here. That is, I can claim any sorts of numbers of "or" statements and iff one of those are true, we can derive the inferential claim. Yet your assertion is not any better than anyone else's, especially once we get to causality, which is more complex than mere inferential conclusions.

So I question your blatant and self-assured statement that theism was indeed the cause of this idea and valuation of life. Moreover, I claim that life itself as valued as somehow sacred and wonderful is not in relation to anything but itself, therefore creating necessary-and-sufficient reasons to claim that this value is an objective one, assuming one accepts my interpretation of reality.

Cheers ! >>

Yeah, you sure know how to stretch what can be said with two sentences so thin that it almost ruptures

I was, and still am, tired when I made that statement. I could be partially or totally wrong, or even correct, but the fact remains that there's no such thing as 'sanctity of life'.

*yawn*

Okay, now it's your turn to state I've totally misinterpreted your post and completely and utterly failed to comprehend that which is your point, thereby showing once more that you're the superior mind on this forum, unrivaled in any mental exercises, with as only exception to this, quite broad, I might add, statement being Beam of Moon, who, as the general reaction to this appearance on this forum does testify, is the master of mystic and cryptic posts, leaving his opponents in any discussion behind in utter confusion.

I think I'm done

 

[Elledan]

<< << - If I use a hammer to build a piece of furnature, it's morally and ethically 'just'.
- If I use the same hammer to smash someone's skull with, it's morally and ethically 'wrong'.
How about if I use a pair of scissors to stab a baby through the head and suck out its brains with a vacuum cleaner? OK in the case of rape? >>
You've no idea how an abortion is done, have you?

I didn't know about the details of Partial birt Abortions until yesturday.

Details here - one thing to note, while sucking out the brains, negative pressure results in the head, and the baby's skull colapses.

They're held up by the US Supreme court. Some states tried to ban them, but the ALCU went to the supreme court and now all bans lifted. I wont even get started about saline abortions.

WHY CANT ANYONE SEE THE FUNDAMENTAL EVIL IN THIS??? >>

'Evil' is an objective term, used by individuals or groups of people to label that which they consider disadvantageous to themselves or their group or society.

And they don't use scissors and vacuum cleaners. Medical science is a bit more refined than that.

 

[lebe0024]

<< 'Evil' is an objective term, used by individuals or groups of people to label that which they consider disadvantageous to themselves or their group or society. >>


I'm not PRO-LIFE because it's advantageous for be to be so. Nor is abortion disadvantageous to me. That's not why I'm fighting it. If someone decides to kill their child, I AM DEEPLY GRIEVED. I simly don't want unborn children to be systematically wiped out.




<< And they don't use scissors and vacuum cleaners. Medical science is a bit more refined than that. >>


Right, becaues that would be barbaric, right? Do a search on google.com.

 

[pyonir]

<< WHY CANT ANYONE SEE THE FUNDAMENTAL EVIL IN THIS??? >>



when you don't believe in good and evil then it is hard to see the "fundamental evil" in anything.

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< 'Evil' is an objective term, used by individuals or groups of people to label that which they consider disadvantageous to themselves or their group or society. >>


I'm not PRO-LIFE because it's advantageous for be to be so. Nor is abortion disadvantageous to me. That's not why I'm fighting it. If someone decides to kill their child, I AM DEEPLY GRIEVED. I simly don't want unborn children to be systematically wiped out. >>


Damn, you really are a nut. Haven't you read any of my previous posts, especially the first one? Why did you ignore the post in which I asked you what your choice would be in a certain situation.

Go back, read those posts and answer the damn question.




<<

<< And they don't use scissors and vacuum cleaners. Medical science is a bit more refined than that. >>


Right, becaues that would be barbaric, right? Do a search on google.com. >>

Your description of the used tools is nothing short of barbaric.

 

[Amused]

<< << - If I use a hammer to build a piece of furnature, it's morally and ethically 'just'.
- If I use the same hammer to smash someone's skull with, it's morally and ethically 'wrong'.
How about if I use a pair of scissors to stab a baby through the head and suck out its brains with a vacuum cleaner? OK in the case of rape? >>
You've no idea how an abortion is done, have you?

I didn't know about the details of Partial birt Abortions until yesturday.

Details here - one thing to note, while sucking out the brains, negative pressure results in the head, and the baby's skull colapses.

They're held up by the US Supreme court. Some states tried to ban them, but the ALCU went to the supreme court and now all bans lifted. I wont even get started about saline abortions.

WHY CANT ANYONE SEE THE FUNDAMENTAL EVIL IN THIS??? >>



It's not your fetus. It's not connected to your body. It's none of your business.

It's that simple. Mind your own damn business and stop trying to tell other people what they can, and cannot do with their own bodies.

That you never knew how a D&X abortion (EXTREMELY rare) was performed leads me to believe you are very young, very naive, and are having your mind warped by fanatics.

May I suggest a little balance? Try going to a bunch of pro-choice sites and reading their views with an open mind. Then read up on libertarinaism and personal freedom.

 

[waggy]

actually im still waiting for some of the people against abortion to tell me if its ok to abor t a on incest/rape/child molestation.
i want to hear there justification of running a 12yr old girls life over it. so far i havent heard anything but the typical stuff we hear from the church.

Though i am against the 20somthing femal that uses abortion as a way of birth control. My sister-in-law has had 2 of them that i know about. It dont take that much time to go get the shot or take a pill once a day.

So i guess it depends on the situration. but heck im male i really cant say myself..though if my girlfriend was pregnant with my child and wanted an abortion i would fight it. Unless it was a danger to her life or such.

 

[Fausto]

To supplement what AO said earlier....D&X is perfomed in about 0.04% of abortions. And when it is performed, it is generally because the fetus is already dead or with what would be fatal birth defects, or would likely threaten the life of the mother if carried to term.

Oh, and way to realize that you weren't getting anywhere with your previous "argument" and switch tactics to something gross like D&X. That's always a favorite of anti-choice wackjobs like yourself as it tends to get the uninformed in an uproar because you get to use statements like "suck out the baby's brains".

Still waiting for that rebuttal of previously-made points, BTW.

Fausto

 

[xirtam]

<< Is the number of Pro-Life bumperstickers on your car larger or smaller than the number of unwanted children YOU personally have adopted? If it's smaller, good for you - you're the exception. >>



They're the same. What does that make me?

No, it's not my fetus, and therefore, I can't sign it's death warrant... and neither should any doctor. I believe in libertarianism and personal freedom as much as the next guy -- I just don't think we should limit it to those over nine months old. That's ageism. I support the woman's right to choose -- to make decisions regarding her own body. And I think we should let them live long enough to make those choices.

Elledan: Ok. Sorry. I'll use the euphemism "Suction catheter" if it will make you feel any better. What should we call the scissors? "Precisely fine-tuned abortive devices"? How about "instruments of euthanasia"? That sounds pretty good. On second thought, I think I'll stick to scissors and vacuum cleaners, because that's what they are. Any thoughts of "barbarianism" implies that there is a fundamental evil in the world -- and I thought this was inconsistent with your beliefs. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not saying that atheists don't have beliefs, morals, ethics, etc. On the contrary, I think they do. And furthermore, I think the fact that they do is inconsistent with their atheistic beliefs and actually supports the idea of a moral metanarrative.

A fetus is not part of a woman's body any more than a screwdriver would be if she swallowed it.

 

[Lalakai]

The right to make my own choices. I am against abortion but feel more stongly toward being able to choose, and not restrict that option to others.

Most of these thread types would die on the vine if people were forced to do their own thinking instead of regurgitating doctrum regardless of it's source. You had the choice on whether to think or merely voice another's opinion; guess I know how highly you value your own ability to choose.

perhaps it would be better to not even start these types of threads when they only invite flames and will never convert a person's belief; then again, some people can only increase their posts in childish ways.

 

[WageSlave]

Havent read anything in here, and im not going to, just wanted to say it was lame to start this thread

 

[ThisIsMatt]

<< Okay - here's a litmus test:

Is the number of Pro-Life bumperstickers on your car larger or smaller than the number of unwanted children YOU personally have adopted?

If it's smaller, good for you - you're the exception.

If it's larger, STFU.

(which rhymes with Shut The Truck Up) >>

Ah yes, same ol' same ol'....trash.

Sorry, I cannot afford to take in children, and probably wouldn't even be allowed to if I tried. Besides, I'm not the one who made the choice. I think it's a pretty good rule that if you're not ready for a child then you're not ready for sex. Sure, blah blah blah, but I bet we'd be in a better state of affairs if everyone followed that rule...

 

[ThisIsMatt]

<< Havent read anything in here, and im not going to, just wanted to say it was lame to start this thread >>

And we're dying for your explanation of how not lame your post is...

 

[flavio]

ok, I'll put down my view, i personally don't see a way where i would ever approve of an abortion with a woman that I'm involved with. But weirder things have happened. So I am not FOR abortions.

On the other hand though, I see absolutely no reason why I or anyone else should be able to tell someone else what to do in their own situation.

Therefore have your own view but don't try to force it on other people.

 

[ThisIsMatt]

<< ok, I'll put down my view, i personally don't see a way where i would ever approve of an abortion with a woman that I'm involved with. But weirder things have happened. So I am not FOR abortions.

On the other hand though, I see absolutely no reason why I or anyone else should be able to tell someone else what to do in their own situation.

Therefore have your own view but don't try to force it on other people. >>

I'm gonna go whack my neighbor, and don't you dare tell me what to do or try to tell me what my moral obligations are!

 

[Red Dawn]

<< I'm gonna go whack my neighbor, and don't you dare tell me what to do or try to tell me what my moral obligations are! >>

Bring it on, I'm waiting!!!

Abortion is here to stay. Deal with it.

 

[Geekbabe]

<<

<< ok, I'll put down my view, i personally don't see a way where i would ever approve of an abortion with a woman that I'm involved with. But weirder things have happened. So I am not FOR abortions.

On the other hand though, I see absolutely no reason why I or anyone else should be able to tell someone else what to do in their own situation.

Therefore have your own view but don't try to force it on other people. >>

I'm gonna go whack my neighbor, and don't you dare tell me what to do or try to tell me what my moral obligations are! >>



You know, I'd be able to take your arguments a lot more seriously if I knew you'd ever been told to scoot your bottom all the way to the end of the table and put your legs up in the nice cold metal stirups.

I don't like abortion .. but in the end feel that it is the woman vote and the woman's alone that should decide this matter in consultation with her physican.

 

[ThisIsMatt]

<<

<< I'm gonna go whack my neighbor, and don't you dare tell me what to do or try to tell me what my moral obligations are! >>

Bring it on, I'm waiting!!!

Abortion is here to stay. Deal with it. >>

Dude, you're not my neighbor, I'm not gonna drive all the way down their to wail on your sorry a$$

Obviously it's not going to end, at least not any time soon, but that doesn't mean it's right...

 

[xirtam]

<< Therefore have your own view but don't try to force it on other people. >>



Why are you trying to force this view on me? Some things are not worth the fight. But if I'm ready to sacrifice human life for convenience, I sure hope somebody's going to try to stop me.