ABORTION - Why we know what we're doing is wrong.

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Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0


<< Dude, you're not my neighbor, I'm not gonna drive all the way down their to wail on your sorry a$$ >>

I've seen your picture..bring friends.. you're going to need them

Matt, niether you or I are ever going to have to make that decision. I think that we should temper our POV because of that.
 

ThisIsMatt

Banned
Aug 4, 2000
11,820
1
0


<< You know, I'd be able to take your arguments a lot more seriously if I knew you'd ever been told to scoot your bottom all the way to the end of the table and put your legs up in the nice cold metal stirups.

I don't like abortion .. but in the end feel that it is the woman vote and the woman's alone that should decide this matter in consultation with her physican.
>>

That's why you don't get pregnant if you don't want kids...

Are you in favor of getting rid of child support laws? What if I got a woman pregnant and she wanted an abortion and I didn't? She would get it and I'd never speak to her again. Now, if she got pregnant and I didn't want the child but she did, I'd be stuck paying child support for 18 years. By getting an abortion the woman is saying "It's my body and I can do whatever I want with it, it doesn't affect you." But, by having the child and demanding support it turns into "It's my body and I can do whatever I want with it, even if it affects you." How does that work?
 

ThisIsMatt

Banned
Aug 4, 2000
11,820
1
0


<<

<< Dude, you're not my neighbor, I'm not gonna drive all the way down their to wail on your sorry a$$ >>

I've seen your picture..bring friends.. you're going to need them

Matt, niether you or I are ever going to have to make that decision. I think that we should temper our POV because of that.
>>

I've seen your picture as well...I'm tall and lanky, I'll slap you upside the head
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0


<< But, by having the child and demanding support it turns into "It's my body and I can do whatever I want with it, even if it affects you." How does that work? >>

Use a Condom or go Greek
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,194
2,448
126
www.theshoppinqueen.com


<<

<< You know, I'd be able to take your arguments a lot more seriously if I knew you'd ever been told to scoot your bottom all the way to the end of the table and put your legs up in the nice cold metal stirups.

I don't like abortion .. but in the end feel that it is the woman vote and the woman's alone that should decide this matter in consultation with her physican.
>>

That's why you don't get pregnant if you don't want kids...

Are you in favor of getting rid of child support laws? What if I got a woman pregnant and she wanted an abortion and I didn't? She would get it and I'd never speak to her again. Now, if she got pregnant and I didn't want the child but she did, I'd be stuck paying child support for 18 years. By getting an abortion the woman is saying "It's my body and I can do whatever I want with it, it doesn't affect you." But, by having the child and demanding support it turns into "It's my body and I can do whatever I want with it, even if it affects you." How does that work?
>>



I've given birth 3 times, I've also provided pretty much all the fiscal "child support" needed to rear em, lemmie tell yoiu, the easy part is coughing up the money ,btw, last time I checked,most women I know make the abortion choice in close consulation with the fathers of their children, the right to choice benefits BOTH sexes.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0


<< edit:
Four years ago, I was a highschool senior and a passionate pro-life athiest (not simply prolife because of religious pressure). I had a girlfriend who I was sexually involved with. One night, I had unprotected sex with her. All that night I was terrified that she would become pregnant. I was SO TERRIFIED that my life would be different from that day on. I might not have been able to go to college, get a high paying job, etc. etc... I know many of you have experienced this fear, so you know what I'm talking about. We talked about our options if she would become pregnant. I had heard that they had "morning after" pills available, so I had her go to the doctor and get some. I felt the trapped feeling slipping away. She took the pills, and killed anything that might have conceived the night before. I killed any human that could have already started to develop. Some freedom. U2 once said in a song "What you thought was freedom, ended up to be bondage." I think that's often true.
>>



Ummm... The morning-after pill is not an abortion pill. It prevents pregnancy, ie it prevents the egg from ever meeting sperm. It does not DOES NOT kill anything.

[edit]
here is info on the damn thing
 

ThisIsMatt

Banned
Aug 4, 2000
11,820
1
0


<<

<< edit:
Four years ago, I was a highschool senior and a passionate pro-life athiest (not simply prolife because of religious pressure). I had a girlfriend who I was sexually involved with. One night, I had unprotected sex with her. All that night I was terrified that she would become pregnant. I was SO TERRIFIED that my life would be different from that day on. I might not have been able to go to college, get a high paying job, etc. etc... I know many of you have experienced this fear, so you know what I'm talking about. We talked about our options if she would become pregnant. I had heard that they had "morning after" pills available, so I had her go to the doctor and get some. I felt the trapped feeling slipping away. She took the pills, and killed anything that might have conceived the night before. I killed any human that could have already started to develop. Some freedom. U2 once said in a song "What you thought was freedom, ended up to be bondage." I think that's often true.
>>



Ummm... The morning-after pill is not an abortion pill. It prevents pregnancy, ie it prevents the egg from ever meeting sperm. It does not DOES NOT kill anything.

[edit]
here is info on the damn thing
>>

Don't you just hate it when your own links contradict yourself?

<< The emergency contraceptive/morning-after pill has three possible ways in which it can work:

Ovulation is inhibited, meaning the egg will not be released;
The normal menstrual cycle is altered, delaying ovulation; or
It can irritate the lining of the uterus so that if the first and second actions fail, and the woman does become pregnant, the tiny baby boy or girl will die before he or she can actually attach to the lining of the uterus.
In other words, if the third action occurs, her body rejects the tiny baby and he or she will die. This is called a chemical abortion.

Abortion is an act of direct killing that takes the life of a tiny human being-a life that begins at fertilization.
>>

 

linuxboy

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,577
6
76
*eats banana* (they're good)

Man, you guys are too smart for me.


oh HI BAFFLED !!!


Cheers !
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,194
2,448
126
www.theshoppinqueen.com


<< *eats banana* (they're good)

Man, you guys are too smart for me.


oh HI BAFFLED !!!


Cheers !
>>




lol, linuxboy, the more I see of you the better I like your style !!!!!
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Yep abortion is good..it get's rid of unwanted bastards, many who'd end up being a drain on society. I think they should promote abortions in HIGHSCHOOL. All those little biatches who get themselves knocked up and end up on welfare would have a second chance. I can't think of a better place for our taxpayers money to go!!
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,389
1,778
126
Well...just because humans have thought processes and what not that are more advanced than other animals, we are still only animals. People kill deer, cattle, etc... I see no difference in killing humans. The only difference is way society perceives it....which is what makes it wrong. However, when it comes to the science part instead of the social part, I'm totally for it. Of course, this kind of thing affects everyone differently...for the record. I'm pro-choice.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
Unborn citizens should have the same civil rights as a newborns. Just one more Supreme Court Justice appointment will finally result in that determination. It's about time!
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0


<< Unborn citizens should have the same civil rights as a newborns >>

No they don't because they aren't citizens and aren't human beings. Hell Ornery, I'd bet all those little bastards who would be saved from abortions would become democrats and a drain on "your taxes"
 

luv2chill

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2000
4,611
0
76
I think the OP has already been put in his place so far as his misinformation regarding the "Morning After pill", so I'll hold my tongue there.

I was in the middle of a huge treatise on my feelings on this subject, but I want to be succinct. Rather than tell you all my personal ideas on the subject I'll just say this.

Abortions (and the unwanted pregnancies that lead to most of them) are due to deeper socialogical factors. Banning abortions won't solve anything. It's akin to giving someone a tylenol to treat their headache, when the headache is caused by bacterial meningitis. Unwanted pregnancies are a SYMPTOM of much deeper problems in our society. The day we expend all of our efforts on addressing those deeper problems (I'm not holding my breath) is the day that the unwanted pregnancy problem can begin to solve itself.

I would really highly suggest everyone see (or read) The Cider House Rules with an honest and open mind. That movie put the issue in its proper perspective for me. More unloved children in this world only makes the underlying socialogical problems worse. It perpetuates the problem instead of making it better. You will have children being aborted in alleyways with coathangers. You will have more babies dumped in restroom trash cans. You will have more mothers taking their own lives (along with the baby's) out of desperation. You will have more children in already crowded orphanages without anyone to love them. This makes things better how? Maybe out of principle because less unborn children are being killed, but at what cost?

Our society has a TON of problems... that most people would rather shove under the rug than deal with. Many aren't even acknowledged. Abortion is a frickin' drop in the proverbial bucket. There are many more important problems that should be dealt with first (but aren't). Like I said, abortion is highly correlated with much deeper issues. Those issues are what should be dealt with first, and then things like abortion will follow suit naturally.

l2c
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
"More unloved children in this world only makes the underlying socialogical problems worse."

All true, but irrelevant. A human being, one month short of being born deserves the same civil rights as even the most detestable criminals. Once the Supreme Court makes that determination, the ACLU will have to defend the civil rights of the unborn too. Now THAT is ironic!
 

fjorner

Senior member
Oct 4, 2000
619
1
0


<< Well...just because humans have thought processes and what not that are more advanced than other animals, we are still only animals. People kill deer, cattle, etc... I see no difference in killing humans. The only difference is way society perceives it....which is what makes it wrong. However, when it comes to the science part instead of the social part, I'm totally for it. Of course, this kind of thing affects everyone differently...for the record. I'm pro-choice. >>



OMG, please tell me you're being sarcastic.


You don't see any difference between killing cattle and killing babies??

 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,480
8,340
126


<< Don't you just hate it when your own links contradict yourself?

<< The emergency contraceptive/morning-after pill has three possible ways in which it can work:

Ovulation is inhibited, meaning the egg will not be released;
The normal menstrual cycle is altered, delaying ovulation; or
It can irritate the lining of the uterus so that if the first and second actions fail, and the woman does become pregnant, the tiny baby boy or girl will die before he or she can actually attach to the lining of the uterus.
In other words, if the third action occurs, her body rejects the tiny baby and he or she will die. This is called a chemical abortion.

Abortion is an act of direct killing that takes the life of a tiny human being-a life that begins at fertilization.
>>



At 72 hours, this "tiny baby boy or girl" has a MAX of about 16 TOTAL CELLS. CELLS.

The day that a microscopic clump of 16 cells is considered anything even remotely human is the day that Larry Flint is ordained the Pope of the Catholic Church.
 
Feb 14, 2002
175
0
0
I'm pro coat hanger



To me it comes down to the Gov't can't tell a woman what to do with her body.

Should guys stop walking the lizard since we're "killing" millions of babies?
 

luv2chill

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2000
4,611
0
76


<< "More unloved children in this world only makes the underlying socialogical problems worse."

All true, but irrelevant. A human being, one month short of being born deserves the same civil rights as even the most detestable criminals. Once the Supreme Court makes that determination, the ACLU will have to defend the civil rights of the unborn too. Now THAT is ironic!
>>

So where do you draw the line Ornery? Third trimester? Second? Day of conception?

I don't think there's been any sort of consensus as to when a sperm and egg actually become a human being. The only reason that third trimester abortions are prohibited is because the fetus has actually taken on human characteristics. In a purely logical sense (without any bias caused by feeling), there's little difference between the little embryo and a third trimester fetus. Both are unborn shells, with zero life experiences and not a shred of consciousness.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like abortion. I think it should be a last resort. But it should be available. If it isn't made available, it will simply relocate to dark alleys and shady back rooms. Sure, you could step up prosecutions... and increase our prison populations even more than their already-astronomical levels.

Or, you could examine the reasons behind most crime, most drug addicition, and most unwanted pregnancies and find that they're all pretty much related. That's where you start solving the problem.

Human civil rights have been violated since the very beginning and will continue to be violated. Making one more thing illegal isn't going to stop it.

Principle often translates poorly into reality (on this earth anyway). Sad but true. Just ask the communists.

l2c
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,194
2,448
126
www.theshoppinqueen.com


<< I think the OP has already been put in his place so far as his misinformation regarding the "Morning After pill", so I'll hold my tongue there.

I was in the middle of a huge treatise on my feelings on this subject, but I want to be succinct. Rather than tell you all my personal ideas on the subject I'll just say this.

Abortions (and the unwanted pregnancies that lead to most of them) are due to deeper socialogical factors. Banning abortions won't solve anything. It's akin to giving someone a tylenol to treat their headache, when the headache is caused by bacterial meningitis. Unwanted pregnancies are a SYMPTOM of much deeper problems in our society. The day we expend all of our efforts on addressing those deeper problems (I'm not holding my breath) is the day that the unwanted pregnancy problem can begin to solve itself.

I would really highly suggest everyone see (or read) The Cider House Rules with an honest and open mind. That movie put the issue in its proper perspective for me. More unloved children in this world only makes the underlying socialogical problems worse. It perpetuates the problem instead of making it better. You will have children being aborted in alleyways with coathangers. You will have more babies dumped in restroom trash cans. You will have more mothers taking their own lives (along with the baby's) out of desperation. You will have more children in already crowded orphanages without anyone to love them. This makes things better how? Maybe out of principle because less unborn children are being killed, but at what cost?

Our society has a TON of problems... that most people would rather shove under the rug than deal with. Many aren't even acknowledged. Abortion is a frickin' drop in the proverbial bucket. There are many more important problems that should be dealt with first (but aren't). Like I said, abortion is highly correlated with much deeper issues. Those issues are what should be dealt with first, and then things like abortion will follow suit naturally.

l2c
>>




Word !!!!!!!!


Beautifully and respectfully said !!!!
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
"So where do you draw the line Ornery? Third trimester? Second? Day of conception?"

No way around it, we have to err on the side of caution. I wouldn't attempt to draw a line... I ain't God!

The law is the law. Civil rights are civil rights. The ACLU trys to cram THAT down our throats every day. Soon, just as slavery was abolished, abortion will be too. Better than half our population supported the "right" to own slaves at one point in time. I bet more than a few people are happy that was made illegal!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,140
6,316
126
This is a profoundly difficult issue and one that I truly hate to deal with. The situation as I see it is this:

A fertilized egg is a potential human. Conception, therefore is a clear and profound line that to reason has strong appeal. Once conceprion has occurred, we are talking about something that can become a humam is left to develope naturally. There is no getting this out of your mind im my opinion. It is a profoundly persuasive viewpoint. So next we have to ask, is human life of any importance. Well sometimes I delude myself into thinking mine is, and so I can't help but project onto a fertilized ova the same meaning that I attribute to myself. There is also, im my opinion, no escaping that conclusion. I no more want a fetus to die than I want to. If there is a God, than it is even more likely that every fetus is sacred. Even in non Christian Japan, when families have abortions they will go to a cemetary or some special shrines they have for this purpose to remember the fetus and acknowledge it and ask for forgivness for taking its life. Inwardly everybody feels, I think, that something about abortion is wrong.

On the other hand, humanity is divided into two sexes, only one of which bears children and only one of which will be forced to carry an unwanted child to term if it is illegal and she follows the law. For those of us who believe in evolution and random chance as part of the evolutionary process, it is just chance that there are two sexes and not one or three. There is a func=damental unjustice to the fact that only half of the people will be affected by banning abortion. Lots and lots of males will be telling females what to do when that wont apply to them. Very unjust indeed. So we have this accident that women bear children and that we reproduce by having sex. Nobody is conscious as a fetus. If any of us died as eight cells it would have been a totally unconscious death like the death of millions every time you drink. It's about on the same order as pulling out a hair. All that , of course depends on keeping your imagination out of it as is difficult to do like I suggested above. So we have conscious adults, the mother, who hav become pregnant and doesn't want to be. The fetus is on the one hand a sacred spark and on the other a hangnail, and carrying it to term will creat profround changes and difficulties, unwanted challenges, as opposed to pretty much the status quo if she aborts. It seems to me that caught between this logical vice that human life is sacred, and it's just a consequence of chance in action that we are forced to face this ethical issue in the first place, it seems to me that nobody can have a right to choose which way to go but the person who carries the child.

The trick is not to get into this situation, but reality is what it is. Once a choice has to be made, there isn't any choice that is all right or all wrong.
 
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