About gun ownership

[Atreus21]

My place of residence, New Orleans, is seeing a murder a day, and we're lucky if we keep it that low. One would think winning the super bowl would promote brotherhood, but alas. I've just moved into a new house, and my wife and I are expecting our daughter in three weeks. We had a murder happen about 2 miles from our house, and we're now considering buying a gun (or two). I've fired all types of guns before, but I've never owned one.

I had a few questions to you guys regarding gun ownership, which are reflected in the attached polls.

Thanks.

 

[nick1985]

No polls attached.

Also PM me if you want to talk about firearm recommendations, I might be able to steer you in the right direction.

 

[Atreus21]

No polls attached.

Also PM me if you want to talk about firearm recommendations, I might be able to steer you in the right direction.

It's up now. Took me a minute.

 

[Matthiasa]

Umm you do know most of that is just gangs going at other gangs right, well and the collateral damage from such?

 

[Atreus21]

Umm you do know most of that is just gangs going at other gangs right, well and the collateral damage from such?

A couple of days ago a guy got shot and killed outside in broad daylight washing his car. He was about 23 years old.

I suppose it could've been a gang hit, but it doesn't sound like it.

 

[rudder]

uhhh move?

If for whatever reason you cannot... just remember if you shoot a gun inside your house... the drywall is not going to stop the bullet. Keep that in mind.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Short barrel shotgun loaded with birdshot is a good choice for home defense i.e. 1 shot takedown, some allowance for poor aiming depending on distance, small chance of deadly penetration through outside walls, also a pump has the advantage of a sound like no other when cycled and may lead to a rapid exit of an intruder without shots fired.

 

[classy]

Can you sell and move to a less violent place? If not, then I would say you should get a gun and I am sure the gunslingers here will help you make the right choice. I would say definately a hand gun though.

 

[piasabird]

Well you might be better off investing in high-security doors and windows. In cities a lot of people are shot sitting in their living room from drive-by type shootings. The bullets often just sail through windows and sometimes even walls. A brick wall would be a good investment as far as housing goes. A lot of new housing does not offer this kind of protection. A basement family room would be nice if you are higher than the ground water.

I use to do a little target practice, but I sold my guns when my kids got to be about 4 or so. Children tend to want to play with these dangerous things. A high degree of care should be taken to secure guns and ammunition. If you lock up the Ammo, guns are harmless. A nice combination safe is better for locking up guns if they must be loaded. Kids can find your keys when you are asleep.

I think both handguns and maybe shotguns/rifles might be good for home defense. I think a 12 guage shotgun is very intimidating for a criminal, but sometimes the barrels are too long and unwieldy in a home defense role. The size of an AK-47 or assault rifle might work well. If you ever saw shots of Korean Shop Keepers in a riot they often have these kinds of rifles. So the right kind of rifle is important. If you plan on purchasing a handgun, it is a good idea to pick something you can actually shoot straight. I have seen some people try to shoot some of these double action pistols who can not hit a 50 meter target. If you have a target range that you can go to that might be a nice place to try out different guns if they loan them out for target practice. You also want a round that will not shoot through walls very effectively. You dont want to kill innocent people. A gun that can be easily loaded is a nice idea also.

There is a tradeoff between the number of rounds you can load and the size of the rounds. When I was in the military an M16 could hold 20 rounds. However some calibers like a 38 or 357 or 40mm might limit severly limit the number of rounds that can be loaded. Clip sizes are sometimes limited by local laws. The hope is you will never need more than about 6-8 rounds if you can hit what you are shooting at.

If you live in a high crime area a house with a secure inner room with no windows and solid walls might be a nice investment. Call it a safe room with food and water. If you live in a hurricane prone area a well constructed area may also be a good idea as well. Adding a metal security door that cant be nocked down is another good feature. My chruch recommends you at least keep enough food and water for 4 days or more for emergencies. A well stocked supply of dry goods and canned foods can be a good buffer for times of need or times with money just runs short. Ramien and rice and Spaghetti and vegetables and cereal are great when you are hungry.

 

[nick1985]

Short barrel shotgun loaded with birdshot is a good choice for home defense

This is FALSE. It has been proven FALSE.

Birdshot is NOT good for defense. It hardly breaks the skin.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

"Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job."

AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL.

If you are shooting at someone in your house, you should intend on killing them, not pissing them off. Use 00 buck.

 

[Daedalus685]

This is FALSE. It has been proven FALSE.

Birdshot is NOT good for defense. It hardly breaks the skin.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

"Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job."

AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL.

If you are shooting at someone in your house, you should intend on killing them, not pissing them off. Use 00 buck.

You seriously won't be charged for murder in the states for shooting someone with buck shot in your home? Our laws are very different here. Is there no escalation of force requirements in your self defence laws or are you only referring to cases where the intruder is pointing a gun at you?

Isn't the point to not kill them and scare the piss out of them in order to avoid having to deal with the murder charges? I'd love to meet the dude that wants to continue stealing your TV after a couple loads of even bird shot in the back.. Criminals aren't exactly trained soldiers, I'd bet that half the time, even if they are armed, they'd be running as fast as they can at the mere sight of a home owner with a shotgun, loaded or not.

 

[nick1985]

You seriously won't be charged for murder in the states for shooting someone with buck shot in your home?

Fuck no. If someone is in your house and trying to kill you and rape your wife and 12 year old daughter and you nail him with a load of buck, you will not be charged with murder. Perhaps there is a wild liberal state out there where you would, but I have never heard of it.

Most certainly not in the OP's state of Louisiana

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

After reading that, it makes me want to reach from my Walther P22, before my Remington 870 if I was ever put in a bad situation. I only have #8 birdshot for my shotgun in my house.

Either way, I never had those guns around for self-defense anyway.

 

[uli2000]

Im consitering a Taurus Judge series pistol (gallery)for home defense. Its a pistol chambered for either .410 shotgun shells or .45 LC. Winchester has also just put out a new home defense shotshell specifically made for this model. It is chambered for 5 rounds, I figure if someone doesn't get the message after 3 .410 rounds, you have 2 .45 LC rounds to finish the job.

 

[Daedalus685]

Fuck no. If someone is in your house and trying to kill you and rape your wife and 12 year old daughter and you nail him with a load of buck, you will not be charged with murder. Perhaps there is a wild liberal state out there where you would, but I have never heard of it.

Most certainly not in the OP's state of Louisiana

Ok, in the act of raping your wife I suppose not.. but I was more talking about using it to scare off a burglar.. I mean what kind of town anywhere in the world is there a legitimate fear of folks coming into your house to rape your entire family?

 

[ultimatebob]

You seriously won't be charged for murder in the states for shooting someone with buck shot in your home? Our laws are very different here. Is there no escalation of force requirements in your self defence laws or are you only referring to cases where the intruder is pointing a gun at you?

Isn't the point to not kill them and scare the piss out of them in order to avoid having to deal with the murder charges? I'd love to meet the dude that wants to continue stealing your TV after a couple loads of even bird shot in the back.. Criminals aren't exactly trained soldiers, I'd bet that half the time, even if they are armed, they'd be running as fast as they can at the mere sight of a home owner with a shotgun, loaded or not.

If you need to shoot someone in the act of home defense, shoot to kill. Dead men don't sue.

 

[Kirby]

You seriously won't be charged for murder in the states for shooting someone with buck shot in your home? Our laws are very different here. Is there no escalation of force requirements in your self defence laws or are you only referring to cases where the intruder is pointing a gun at you?

Isn't the point to not kill them and scare the piss out of them in order to avoid having to deal with the murder charges? I'd love to meet the dude that wants to continue stealing your TV after a couple loads of even bird shot in the back.. Criminals aren't exactly trained soldiers, I'd bet that half the time, even if they are armed, they'd be running as fast as they can at the mere sight of a home owner with a shotgun, loaded or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine_in_the_United_States

 

[exdeath]

My always loaded guns are USP .40 for carry and Mossberg 590 12g at home with low recoil 00 tactical. Have never had to use them, have come close to drawing on sight of potential threats that never manifested.

 

[Kirby]

Im consitering a Taurus Judge series pistol (gallery)for home defense. Its a pistol chambered for either .410 shotgun shells or .45 LC. Winchester has also just put out a new home defense shotshell specifically made for this model. It is chambered for 5 rounds, I figure if someone doesn't get the message after 3 .410 rounds, you have 2 .45 LC rounds to finish the job.

How about just getting a real .45 and just kill them?

 

[nick1985]

Im consitering a Taurus Judge series pistol for home defense.

Not that great for defense. Pretty much a gimic

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41_4.htm

"Lessons learned:
1. Jack bought this pistol for snakes and it looks like a fine tool for that job.

2. Birdshot, in any gauge, is for little birds.

3. Buckshot out of a .410 does not penetrate enough to be an effective personal defense load.

4. The rifled slug was also a disappointment and did not have enough weight or power or penetration to be effective as a defense load.

5. The .45 Long Colt loads had plenty of penetration and would be the preferred defense load for this pistol.

6. It's fun to bust clays with this pistol.

And, as usual, it's always fun to shoot stuff."

Basically 45 Long colt is the only load out of the Judge worth a damn for defense. So you would be buying a 5 round revolver at that point. Plenty of better options for home defense.

 

[exdeath]

If you need to shoot someone in the act of home defense, shoot to kill. Dead men don't sue.

No but state and federal prosecuters do. If you shoot someone and/or kill them, it better have been because you had a reasonable fear of great bodily harm or loss of life (or the defense of another from the same).

You'll be in deep water if you shoot someone running out of your house with a TV, even with a castle doctrine, but the law says you can stop them from leaving with your property with reasonable physical force, then escalate to deadly force when they confront you and become a threat.

Almost every castle doctrine law stil requires that the person was a threat and that the action was justfied under the normal use for force laws. Castle doctrine does not give a licence to unconditionally shoot or kill someone for being in your house. It only gives you legal immunity if you do end up shooting or killing someone in your house for a valid reason as defined by the regular laws regarding use of force.

 

[nick1985]

I mean what kind of town anywhere in the world is there a legitimate fear of folks coming into your house to rape your entire family?

Head to Mogadishi, Sierra Leone, Liberia, or some other hellhole in Africa and its very real.


But it can happen in any town in the United States. If you believe otherwise you are foolish.

 

[Lanyap]

Move to Metairie, Kenner or a newer suburb. When I grew up there crime was not a problem. It could have changed since I moved but it's better than living in NOLA city limits.

 

[nick1985]

You can be in the nicest, most peaceful suburb in the USA and this type of crime can find you. Feeling "safe" in your neighborhood is being naive

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2132349.ece

Awful.

 

[Daedalus685]

If you need to shoot someone in the act of home defense, shoot to kill. Dead men don't sue.

lol, I'm not talking about suing, no court would hear a suit.. But in Canada you'd be up on second degree murder charges and face life in prison for that...


Thanks for pointing out the castle law and whatnot nkgreen. That is crazy.. lol. I really thought the Simpsons where Wiggum told Homer that "once they are in your house whatever you do is nice and legal.. it doesn't work if you invite them" was just the Simpson's being a cartoon..

Oh man.. that is so totally insane.

I'm not sure why one would 'want' to kill someone for taking their TV... but whatever. I've yet to meet a criminal that was able to put up more resistance than a squirrel and not run off at a relatively loud noise.