About mining, ethics and hipocrisy

[boxleitnerb]

While I'm not partaking in the hardware game or its discussions anymore, I still read in the forums from time to time. One topic that has always bugged me is mining.

I read of many people openly saying they are mining, buying lots of hardware to do so. Personally, I can understand the attraction of "earning" money by doing nothing (aside from the initial investment and setup of course), but I can't help looking at the other side of the equation:

- waste of resources
- waste of energy
- effects on the environment and on the people in third world countries where much of our electronic waste is disposed

While I dislike this concept itself, another observation puzzles and angers me even more. That is when people who mine criticize companies for raising prices and being greedy, ripping customers off.

This is hipocrisy and I wonder why nobody else has written about it. They are greedy themselves but speak against others for the same thing. And furthermore, their mining benefits only them, while companies produce the products that support the entertainment of millions, help scientific research, create jobs and so on.

I purposefully painted a rather crass contrast, but that is how I ultimately feel. I hope for a civilized discussion.

 

[SimianR]

The biggest thing that bugs me is when it goes from a group of gamers/hobbyist types running the mining program on 1-2 of their gaming PC's to people buying 60 GPU's and running ridiculous mining farms. With the the way mining works, and with no additional coins/currency being created when more people mine, all it does is create more energy waste and cause the pieces of the pie to be divided up differently. Ultimately this then leads to a race to the bottom and the next guy feels he needs to buy 10+ GPU's to maintain the same amount of mined currency. In a matter of 3-6 months for many people it's not even profitable anymore with energy costs and people continue to mine hoping that the value of said currency goes up, which is a gamble. Basically - people get a bit too excited about the potential of "free money" and it quickly turns into a situation where a ridiculous amount of energy is wasted as the difficulty sharply increases. I get it, that doesn't mean I have to like it

/end rant

 

[Erenhardt]

It has nothing to do with hypocrisy, but rather conflict of interests on a consumer-manufacturer level.

- waste of resources
- waste of energy
- effects on the environment and on the people in third world countries where much of our electronic waste is disposed

This could be applied to a lot of jobs, mine full time job aswell. I could do 100s more productive things than sitting at this desk, printing papers no one will ever read.
Now that I think of it. I do a lot more productive work in my free time than in my job.

On the side note: What is a bill? What difference is there between $10, $50, $100? How much each is worth? Decentralized currency may in future benefit the whole mankind.

 

[RussianSensation]

This is hipocrisy and I wonder why nobody else has written about it. They are greedy themselves but speak against others for the same thing. And furthermore, their mining benefits only them, while companies produce the products that support the entertainment of millions, help scientific research, create jobs and so on.

One of the biggest pension funds in Canada has invested millions of dollars into mining start-ups. The income generated from venture start-ups in tech helps provide support to hundreds of thousands of government employees in retirement, helps them pay medical bills, donate $ to scientific research due to a healthy pension, and creates portfolio investment jobs. This is just one example that undermines your entire main premise that mining is a selfish activity that benefits no one but the end users.

http://www.omersventures.com/Portfolio.aspx

Inside their ventures portfiolio we find:

"Our mission is to accelerate the development of a better financial system. We build and support bitcoin and blockchain companies by leveraging our insights, network, and access to capital."
http://dcg.co/

"OMERS Ventures is the venture capital arm of OMERS, one of Canada's largest pension funds with more than $65 billion in net assets. Established in 1962, OMERS provides defined pension benefits to local government employees, retirees and beneficiaries throughout Ontario. The OMERS Primary Pension Plan "The Primary Plan" is a jointly sponsored, multi-employer pension plan with nearly 1,000 participating employers in 2015 and 2014, and approximately 461,000 Primary Plan members in 2015, compared to approximately 450,000 in 2014."

You also seem to not understand what a virtual currency is.

How To Use Bitcoin To Shop At Amazon, Home Depot, CVS And More
"Now, though, users of the controversial peer-to-peer digital system can spend their cryptocurrency in brick and mortar stores including Home Depot, CVS, Kmart and Sears as well as online at web retail granddaddy Amazon.com."
http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoc...-amazon-home-depot-cvs-and-more/#9b2621d6cd47


This alone shuts down your entire point about digital currency and the industry associated with it being a waste of resources, energy and so on.

In simplest terms, there is no hypocrisy whatsoever. People and organizations accept currencies in exchange for goods and services. Currency has value. Anonymity has value. When transactions take place, they are validated on both ends and someone has to do the validation.

If you are going to start critiquing virtual currencies, it better come with substantial analysis not random criticism that can be broadly applied to most human activities -- waste of resources, waste of human energy and the earth's resources to deliver electricity to mining rigs -- because guess what so is video gaming, media consumption, Internet, sports, etc.

Do you realize that the $ earned from mining currencies does NOT need to be spent on PC hardware? That means unlike straight up PC parts purchases, mining is actually better for the world because not only does it drive PC purchases, but the $ earned can be used to help society or further drive the world's economy. Therefore, mining currencies actually has both the human consumption and income generation components associated with it from a consumer's perspective.

This means:

Customer 1 buys a PC and uses it in a conventional way.
Customer 2 buys a PC and uses it the same conventional way + mines.

Customer 2 adds more economic value to the world because the mining component itself has additional jobs, industries and additional income associated with it.

Taking this further, it then means that a Graphics Card that can perform all the conventional tasks but can also mine well also has more intrinsic value to the world.

What's next? You are going to tell tens of millions of people in the world that using their computer for various BOINC projects is also a waste of society's energy, resources and destroys the environment due to excessive energy consumption?
http://boincstats.com/en/stats/projectStatsInfo

On the side note: What is a bill? What difference is there between $10, $50, $100? How much each is worth? Decentralized currency may in future benefit the whole mankind.

According to the OP, the implication in the opening statements is that virtual currencies have no real value to the world, only to the selfish people who mine the currencies and then somehow find naive consumers who purchase and then exchange the coins on the open market with fiat currencies. Every second there is a transaction (flash).

Bitfinex = over $200 million USD alone
http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

Does that mean the stock market, foreign currency exchanges have no value to the world too? People over there make $ "out of nothing" too!

Let's add casinos and strip clubs too. All those people gambling their $, drinking and looking at naked people -- instead all of them could be working "real jobs", helping the poor, saving bees, polar bears, etc.

 

[Flapdrol1337]

Yeah, mined coins have no fundamental value, so it's a complete waste of effort and resources.

But so are most other things we do. At least this helped sell graphics cards. :thumbsup:

 

[Erenhardt]

All those people gambling their $, drinking and looking at naked people -- instead all of them could be working "real jobs", helping the poor, saving bees, polar bears, etc.

Damn. Spot on. I am keeping bees in my free time. D:

Now that I think of it. I do a lot more productive work in my free time than in my job.

 

[boxleitnerb]

RS,

and when the price for the coins tanks like it has happened before (top for BC was for instance $800, not it stands at $400), what then? What if the government reglements cryptocurrencies because they feel threatened by it which could depreceate the value further?
I find it highly irresponsible to invest money that people depend on into such endeavors.

And of course people don't need to spend this money on PC hardware. But of all people you are one of the most outspoken ones on this topic who always argues that your hardware pays by itself. You cannot have it both ways.

And it still is a waste of energy and resources in my opinion. The hardware and energy used to generate the virtual currency has to come from somewhere.

All those people gambling their $, drinking and looking at naked people -- instead all of them could be working "real jobs", helping the poor, saving bees, polar bears, etc.

Yeah, let's push this discussion into this direction, very mature...
Not going to respond to any of your posts anymore with that kind of attitude.

 

[boozzer]

digital currency is the future guys, might not be immediate but it is the future. usa will try to stall it for as long as possible because we reap the benefits of being the oil reserve currency.

 

[R0H1T]

RS,

and when the price for the coins tanks like it has happened before (top for BC was for instance $800, not it stands at $400), what then? What if the government reglements cryptocurrencies because they feel threatened by it which could depreceate the value further?
I find it highly irresponsible to invest money that people depend on into such endeavors.

And of course people don't need to spend this money on PC hardware. But of all people you are one of the most outspoken ones on this topic who always argues that your hardware pays by itself. You cannot have it both ways.

And it still is a waste of energy and resources in my opinion. The hardware and energy used to generate the virtual currency has to come from somewhere.



Yeah, let's push this discussion into this direction, very mature...
Not going to respond to any of your posts anymore with that kind of attitude.

It's a massive waste of time & resources, fossil fuel based, & one of the reasons why I've never mined crypto coins. I sadly have not discouraged this practice to the extent I could've, but then again if I can't remunerate or compensate the miner to the extent he's making each month it'd be a wasteful proposition anyway.

I'd argue mining is also a form of addiction, very much so in fact, the lure of free money & then the chance to get new(er) shinier hardware at no cost, to one's pocket, is a chance very few will miss. I think, & I do admit it's an exaggeration, this is quite akin to some of the stock market bubbles of the past.

 

[thilanliyan]

For me it is a hobby...I mine on the same comp that I play games on. And while I use about 600w while mining, I am sure there are other hobbies I could waste even more money and energy on, so I don't feel that bad about it, from an environmental perspective.

 

[xthetenth]

It's a massive waste of time & resources, fossil fuel based, & one of the reasons why I've never mined crypto coins. I sadly have not discouraged this practice to the extent I could've, but then again if I can't remunerate or compensate the miner to the extent he's making each month it'd be a wasteful proposition anyway.

I'd argue mining is also a form of addiction, very much so in fact, the lure of free money & then the chance to get new(er) shinier hardware at no cost, to one's pocket, is a chance very few will miss. I think, & I do admit it's an exaggeration, this is quite akin to some of the stock market bubbles of the past.

My electricity comes courtesy of the power of the atom because I live in a place with an actually modern electricity infrastructure, so I think I'll get going on some of that sweet sweet other people's money. ()

 

[digitaldurandal]

While I understand what is being said I think it quite a bit of nonsense. We could keep going down the same slope easily. Do you drive to work? What a waste, bike to work. Heck just playing videogames at all, especially on your high end PC is a huge waste of resources.

To call it an addiction without any evidence just because you have an obvious disgust for it shows a bias. Just because people who find success with mining continue to do so, does not mean it is an addiction.

I think your priorities are off. There are other things you could focus on that would have a much bigger impact. The biggest miners out there are using low power special SoCs.

 

[sm625]

I'm all for mining. It makes a lot more sense to use that energy to mine currency than it does to use that energy to drive a game where you run around blowing virtual people's heads off. In the end, mining and gaming, they're really both the same. They both create jobs. They both drive GDP. They both drive technology. So what does it matter?

 

[guskline]

Wow, there for a moment, after reading the OP's title I thought I was going to be reading a political post about West Virginia!

Clinton Shut the mines.
Trump -opens the mines
()

 

[Captain Picard]

While I'm not partaking in the hardware game or its discussions anymore, I still read in the forums from time to time. One topic that has always bugged me is mining.

I read of many people openly saying they are mining, buying lots of hardware to do so. Personally, I can understand the attraction of "earning" money by doing nothing (aside from the initial investment and setup of course), but I can't help looking at the other side of the equation:

- waste of resources
- waste of energy
- effects on the environment and on the people in third world countries where much of our electronic waste is disposed

While I dislike this concept itself, another observation puzzles and angers me even more. That is when people who mine criticize companies for raising prices and being greedy, ripping customers off.

This is hipocrisy and I wonder why nobody else has written about it. They are greedy themselves but speak against others for the same thing. And furthermore, their mining benefits only them, while companies produce the products that support the entertainment of millions, help scientific research, create jobs and so on.

I purposefully painted a rather crass contrast, but that is how I ultimately feel. I hope for a civilized discussion.

I think you meant to post this in Politics and News.

Sounds like you'd be perfectly happy with an overbearing central authority dictating what people can and can't do with their money, personal property, or purchased services, right down to outlawing "mining" activities because you feel it's "unethical" and that those who do it are "greedy hypocrites" who somehow contribute to the perpetual impoverishment of people in other countries.

Yep, let's have globe spanning central authority allocate property and resources from each according to their ability to each according to their need. No one will have property rights, all property belongs to the state. Our glorious benefactors will allocate all resources as necessary to create a global utopia. Never mind the fact that a human institution with that much power will inevitably be filled with the most corrupt, tyrannical, power-hungry scum there is.

Your ignorance in economics is only rivaled by your ridiculously sanctimonious self-righteous indignation. If the conditions of people in other parts of the world are your concern, direct that indignation at the actors within those countries that maintain that perpetual impoverishment and misery, not a tech hobbyist on a PC forum who is, practically speaking, powerless to help or harm said paupers.

 

[poofyhairguy]

The hardware and energy used to generate the virtual currency has to come from somewhere.

Yeah, I pay for it.

You seem to be under the impression that energy is free. It isn't, I pay for it and the hardware I use to mine. If I find mining, or being part of the crypto community, to be rewarding who are you to tell me that it is a "waste?"

I will let you in on a little secret - ALL money is a shared delusion. The only reason the paper dollar in your wallet isn't worth the same as a piece of toilet paper (both wood pulp) is because we as a society put more value into the wood pulp when it has that official green ink on it. Therefore BY DEFINITION mining can't be a "waste" because someone is valuing the end product more than the energy or hardware it takes to make it. If that wasn't the case, people couldn't profitably mine.

Wasting resources? I am using GPUs and computer parts I already had, that AREN'T going to some landfill only because I find a value of mining with that stuff. I am part of a hydro power cooperative so my power consumption doesn't do a damn thing to the environment. You make all sorts of assumptions that are completely the opposite of reality.

I enjoy being a part of a new technology that might change how transactions between people are conducted in the future. I like being able to be a part of new organizations like The DAO (daohub.org) that are not possible without the technology of cryptocurrency. I like focusing my interest in computer hardware on something other than pushing an even higher framerate than my 60hz monitor can show me. I find that mining is fun in its own right, and I will continue to support companies (like AMD, let's take off the sugar coating) that allow me to have that fun and be a gamer too for maybe a little less out of pocket cost.

You don't have a right to tell me it's a waste.

 

[repoman0]

Regarding your energy point ... running some quick numbers, you use well over 100 times the power that even a 1 kW mining rig (4-5 high end GPUs) pulls just cruising on the highway in your car, assuming 20% efficiency for your car and 80% for your PC PSU. Not to mention your tiny car engine pollutes more for its energy than a (hopefully) big efficient power plant providing you with electricity. Want to save energy? Bike to work once every couple weeks when you otherwise would have driven. There's your allocation for "waste energy" to go towards cryptocurrency mining.

I agree that electronic waste is a huge problem, but your resentment towards mining would be better spent advocating for better electronics recycling because electronics are going to be made no matter what. Plus, how much of a problem are a few extra GPUs that have a long service life compared to the hundreds of millions of old cell phones being thrown away.

 

[n0x1ous]

Your ignorance in economics is only rivaled by your ridiculously sanctimonious self-righteous indignation. If the conditions of people in other parts of the world are your concern, direct that indignation at the actors within those countries that maintain that perpetual impoverishment and misery, not a tech hobbyist on a PC forum who is, practically speaking, powerless to help or harm said paupers.

Exactly. Couldnt have said it better myself. Pathetic social justice environmental BS from the OP

 

[Despoiler]

I don't see any of these issues as mutually exclusive. I can and do pay for my electricity from 100% renewable resources (wind and solar). I can demand my government move away from fossil fuels by incentivizing renewable. I can also vote in people that support my energy views. I can do all of these things and more and also mine. Ethereum is a distributed computationally capable platform. You can run apps on it. Apps that would normally take computing power the app creator might not have have access to or at least access to in a timely manner. Given it's infancy we don't even know what can come from it. You have to build it to find out. Some alt coins are also a hedge against fiat currency much like gold. Alt coins are breaking the unreasonable stranglehold of money transmission companies who charge obscene fees to move money around.

As far as electronic waste, all of my recycling companies do it in house or partner with firms in the USA. At no point is any of it is shipped overseas.

 

[xthetenth]

You don't have a right to tell me it's a waste.

While I agree with everything you said, you don't have any right to prevent him criticizing. You're in a position where you can trivially rebut it and go about your day, but dissent is pretty important.

social justice

I'm confused, the rest of the comment was saying that the OP's argument is a bad thing?

 

[Headfoot]

Exactly. Couldnt have said it better myself. Pathetic social justice environmental BS from the OP

Seconded. The motion is open for a vote

 

[Headfoot]

I read of many people openly saying they are mining, buying lots of hardware to do so. Personally, I can understand the attraction of "earning" money by doing nothing (aside from the initial investment and setup of course), but I can't help looking at the other side of the equation:

- waste of resources
- waste of energy
- effects on the environment and on the people in third world countries where much of our electronic waste is disposed

While I dislike this concept itself, another observation puzzles and angers me even more. That is when people who mine criticize companies for raising prices and being greedy, ripping customers off.

This is hipocrisy and I wonder why nobody else has written about it. They are greedy themselves but speak against others for the same thing. And furthermore, their mining benefits only them, while companies produce the products that support the entertainment of millions, help scientific research, create jobs and so on.

I purposefully painted a rather crass contrast, but that is how I ultimately feel. I hope for a civilized discussion.

I mined Litecoin. Your fault here is assuming I care about the same things you do.

- waste of resources (Don't care. My resources are not being wasted, I am in fact putting to use idle capital.)
- waste of energy (Don't care.)
- effects on the environment and on the people in third world countries where much of our electronic waste is disposed (Don't care.)

Welcome to the world.

 

[n0x1ous]

I'm confused, the rest of the comment was saying that the OP's argument is a bad thing?

Im no fan of the social justice or environmental crusades. In America (or at least America as it should be/used to be), individuals make their own destiny and don't blame all their problems on white males. I entirely oppose everything the OP posted.

 

[poofyhairguy]

While I agree with everything you said, you don't have any right to prevent him criticizing.

I am not trying to prevent him from doing anything. I am not a moderator, and I am not physically keeping him from a keyboard.

I am just saying that he isn't expressing an opinion (aka something debatably right or wrong), he is expressing something that is wrong based on the facts. He has a right to be wrong, and I have a right to call him out on it.

Dissent and discourse is only useful if it's based on logic and fact. Emotional fallacies help no one.

 

[xthetenth]

Im no fan of the social justice or environmental crusades. In America (or at least America as it should be/used to be), individuals make their own destiny and don't blame all their problems on white males. I entirely oppose everything the OP posted.

Nowhere in a discussion of using energy to redistribute wealth did race, gender or class come up. I think that by now he's misrepresenting the state of mining as being just using the resources used to make electricity to redistribute wealth. I'm real glad that I didn't have to make my own destiny though, there's nearly certain odds that I would be making a lot less money for myself and a lot less value for the economy if I didn't have resources backing me up when I was in college. It's awesome playing life on easy, I wish more people had that opportunity. Anyway, sorry to derail this derail from the forum as a whole.

I am not trying to prevent him from doing anything. I am not a moderator, and I am not physically keeping him from a keyboard.

I am just saying that he isn't expressing an opinion (aka something debatably right or wrong), he is expressing something that is wrong based on the facts. He has a right to be wrong, and I have a right to call him out on it.

Dissent and discourse is only useful if it's based on logic and fact. Emotional fallacies help no one.

Agreed. Talk of rights is just something that gets me going because there are people that do actually seriously think they should be immune from criticism.