About time Ford killed it

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: EndGame
Look, I have 4 kids, we live on a mile or so long private drive and I also use my SUV to pull a trailer and a boat so most all the time my SUV is being utilized for its size and versatility.

No, nobody is saying there's a law prohibiting SUV's, but, some of you sure like to seem holier than though telling some others they shouldn't or are dumb to when there are obviously larger infractions of wasting our fossil fuels.

well, it sounds like you have good cause to own one then...nothing wrong with that.

The thing with large industries is that they tend to hang on to equipment a LOT longer than Average Joe. Would it be nice if the railroads moved to more efficient locomotives? Yes, it would...and believe me, EVERY industry would love to have more efficient equipment, because it directly translates to a larger profit margin. However, they CAN'T sink the capital into new locomotives every 5 years, which is what Americans seem to be doing with their cars.

The problem is that pure economics can drive industries to pursue more efficient technologies...however, since gasoline isn't a huge concern to most individuals above a certain income level, they really don't care how efficient their vehicle is. So, they have to work off ideals. It was instilled in me that waste was to be avoided (and further reinforced in my education as an engineer), so I try to avoid buying things which are excessively packaged, products I don't truly need, or inefficient cars. Hey, you're hauling 4 kids around, your SUV probably gets more passenger-miles per gallon than I do, but if since only have to carry myself I get a small car.

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: jemcam
What a flamefest! Seriously, lighten up, we have freedom of choice in the US.

Not any more. They tell you you can't smoke. they tell you you can't sell x drinks,. They tell you to cut your yard under penalty of property seizure etc etc etc... just as matter of time before they tell you what you can drive (they do in a way already with GVW laws)

Smoke all you want outside or in normal smoking areas (bars, some restaurants, etc), but as soon as it starts to affect me, a compromise must be reached. I think I have the right to a smoke-free environment inside classrooms, government buildings, offices, and some restaurants, I think you have the right to smoke in other areas including those mentioned in the first sentence.

The problem is that what you drive doesn't affect me much right away, which is enough for some people to say "it doesn't matter". However, it DOES affect everyone in the long term...environmental effect, resources, and higher demand leading to higher prices. If you use it...fine. But if it costs you nothing to drive a smaller car, why not?

I don't smoke But I always defend the minorities rights. Majority tyranny, private tyranny, or government tyranny is no good, evil IMO to deny rights to others based on personal prejudice. I feel the bar owner or agentcy head in the case of governemnt offices should decide what policy he wants in his estabishment. He's the boss after all. Not a bunch people outside peeping thier fat noses in. I also defend the right to drive what you will. Consume whatever you want into your body etc.

As long as it's not hurting you STFU. Don't like going to a smoking resturant, stay out. Don't like working for a boss puffing a fat cuban quit or don't get hired. Don't like SUV's, don't buy one.

 

[Fingers]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Fingers

It does cost to drive a smaller car. Costs you safety, convienience of carrying any large load you need to, Comfort for larger individuals. I could keep going but everybody's definition of practicle is different for every individuals wants/needs.

size != safety..I could talk about rollovers if you like, and there's the ever-prevalent example of how indy cars have such a good safety record considering the situations they're exposed to.

Convenience...well, that's one of those times when you have to think about how many times you need to carry large loads. I argue that if you can fit a Kenmore refrigerator into a Honda CRX, most people overestimate their need for a "large" car to carry stuff.

Comfort-really varies from car to car. There are some small cars which are VERY cramped for large individuals. There are some small cars which seem to have more space than some SUVs, for the same individuals.

The problem is that the pro-SUV camp seems to think the opposition sees NO need for SUVs, whereas the anti-SUV camp seems to think the opposition never uses their SUVs for their true purpose. I don't think either side would agree with these stereotypes.

Now just how much effort did it take to get it into your crx?

As far as comfort is concerned. No small car or even larger sedan can prode a normal seating position. It's one thing that I hate most about smaller cars. Feels like you are sitting on the floor with your legs out in front.

You can talk about rollovers all you want but more people die from other types of collisions and anybody who has ever taken physics knows whoever weighs more is gonna win.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Zebo
As long as it's not hurting you STFU. Don't like going to a smoking resturant, stay out. Don't like working for a boss puffing a fat cuban quit or don't get hired. Don't like SUV's, don't buy one.

read the last paragraph in my post. I'm not worried about right now...I'm worried about the long-term effects. If resources were unlimited, and pollution magically disappeared, I WOULDN'T care what you drove. Sort of like how I don't care if you smoke (as long as I'm not FORCED to inhale it...like at my job/school, in public I can always cross the street to the other side if I like).

It sounds like this is another where-do-you-draw-the-line thing, and obviously I draw it in a different place than you. You've stated your position, and I've stated mine. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like either of us have convinced the other, but hopefully we've given ourselves something to think about.

/bows

 

[Evadman]

Good, I can get one cheap now.

Everyone who is talking about rollovers, and that Size != Safety is harboring incomplete information. A rollover is caused (wit the exception of mechanical failure) by a driver not knowing how to drive the vehicle they have. I don't expect an Excursion to go 170 around Las Vegas, I also don't expect a $50k vehicle to save my life if I hit a concrete barrier at 170 (like an F1 as was mentioned) the fact is that mass always wins. If you are in a CRX and get rear ended by a loaded dump truck at 50, you have an extreamly low chance of survival. Swap the CRX with a F-150, and your survival rate increases. Swap the 150 eith an excusion, and up that rate goes.

Usualy, more mass = stiffer and safer vehicle. Obviously, this is not true in all cases (I have seen some horrific crashes with mini's and the driver usually lives)

The fact of the matter is cars, trucks, and SUV's are made to serve specific purposes. You can cram a soccer team into an Excursion better than you can into a Civic. Which gets better gas millege in that instance? An Excursion with 9 passengers, or 4 honda Civics? Hmmm...

 

[EndGame]

size != safety..I could talk about rollovers if you like, and there's the ever-prevalent example of how indy cars have such a good safety record considering the situations they're exposed to.

Considering Indy/CART/F1 use "cockpits" designed by and for fighter jets, this comes as no surprise whatsoever. I'm not sure what you're implying with this statement. If you're implying compact vehicles could use more impact resistant "cockpits", especially small cars, I agree.

As far as safety issues, roll-overs were a problem and are if the vehicle is used erraticly or for uses it isn't intended for, but, being an engineer, you must agree that two vehicles hurtling 60/70/80 mph and hitting something, you will have a better survival rate in a larger vehicle such as an SUV as compared to a small vehicle such as a Corolla.

 

[mwtgg]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: jemcam
What a flamefest! Seriously, lighten up, we have freedom of choice in the US.

Absolutly, we choose not to sign the Kyoto treaty!

Were America! Were #1!!!!!
:roll:

The Kyoto Treaty was and still is a fuc[/b]king joke.

 

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: SampSon

Ah yes, because everything is black-and-white...either I am 100% selfish, or I live in a box.

Dude, I know Ayn Rand is popular and all, but that only works when population densities are low and resources are abundant. In order for civilization to work, people have to COOPERATE.

He's not educated enough to understand the idea of true cost economics.

Do you realise how boorishly arrogant you sound?

Amused was making a valid point, we are all selfish. Some more than others.

At what point does my selfishness become noteworthy?

How much is too much?

Do you realize how ignorant and self-serving most people sound in these threads?
"As long as my immediate needs are met, who cares!" Perfect philosophy to drive a civilization into the ground. Though who cares as long as we are comfortable right?

His point was well taken. Though has little to do with true cost economics. My statement was directed at his overall attitude on this forum, not just this thread specific situation.

Your selfishness becomes noteworthy when it affects others with no thought of consequence. As a general consuming american, your selfishness has been noteworthy for sometime.

You can talk about rollovers all you want but more people die from other types of collisions and anybody who has ever taken physics knows whoever weighs more is gonna win.

Absolutely, so lets all drive M1 tanks!

The Kyoto Treaty was and still is a fvcking joke.

Whatever you say champ.

 

[EndGame]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: SampSon

Ah yes, because everything is black-and-white...either I am 100% selfish, or I live in a box.

Dude, I know Ayn Rand is popular and all, but that only works when population densities are low and resources are abundant. In order for civilization to work, people have to COOPERATE.

He's not educated enough to understand the idea of true cost economics.

Do you realise how boorishly arrogant you sound?

Amused was making a valid point, we are all selfish. Some more than others.

At what point does my selfishness become noteworthy?

How much is too much?

Do you realize how ignorant and self-serving most people sound in these threads?
"As long as my immediate needs are met, who cares!" Perfect philosophy to drive a civilization into the ground. Though who cares as long as we are comfortable right?

His point was well taken. Though has little to do with true cost economics. My statement was directed at his overall attitude on this forum, not just this thread specific situation.

Your selfishness becomes noteworthy when it affects others with no thought of consequence. As a general consuming american, your selfishness has been noteworthy for sometime.

You can talk about rollovers all you want but more people die from other types of collisions and anybody who has ever taken physics knows whoever weighs more is gonna win.

Absolutely, so lets all drive M1 tanks!

The Kyoto Treaty was and still is a fvcking joke.

Whatever you say champ.

Not feasable...

Poor seating capacity
Terrible ride
Immpossible to park

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: EndGame

size != safety..I could talk about rollovers if you like, and there's the ever-prevalent example of how indy cars have such a good safety record considering the situations they're exposed to.

Considering Indy/CART/F1 use "cockpits" designed by and for fighter jets, this comes as no surprise whatsoever. I'm not sure what you're implying with this statement. If you're implying compact vehicles could use more impact resistant "cockpits", especially small cars, I agree.

As far as safety issues, roll-overs were a problem and are if the vehicle is used erraticly or for uses it isn't intended for, but, being an engineer, you must agree that two vehicles hurtling 60/70/80 mph and hitting something, you will have a better survival rate in a larger vehicle such as an SUV as compared to a small vehicle such as a Corolla.

Yes, I agree. I don't delude myself about smaller cars being automatically safer than everything else, and weight DOES provide an advantage, but I just don't like people thinking that safety is proportional to weight and nothing else. Design is the largest factor, which is why I brought in the F1 angle. Another example would be looking at Volvo....it's INCREDIBLE what a Volvo can go through and still keep the driver alive.

SUVs used to be pretty dangerous (crumple zones and the like were in cars before they were in trucks), but modern SUVs have gotten much better. I'll admit it, with the weight advantage factored in, you probably stand a better chance in a crash if you drive an SUV.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Uh, hi. Civic driver checking in.

Drive whatever you want, just keep it away from the space I call the "Personal Zone" - you know, the region where my back bumper starts infringing on your cellphone call.

You can chuckle if you ever see me stuck in a ditch - but in return, I get to mock you pouring a month's worth of gas into your boat and not getting a full tank.

And last but not least, when you're doing 10mph down a street when there's four inches of accumulation because you didn't bother to learn how to drive in the winter, pull the fvck over and let the Canuck pass, okay?

- M4H

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Zebo
As long as it's not hurting you STFU. Don't like going to a smoking resturant, stay out. Don't like working for a boss puffing a fat cuban quit or don't get hired. Don't like SUV's, don't buy one.

read the last paragraph in my post. I'm not worried about right now...I'm worried about the long-term effects. If resources were unlimited, and pollution magically disappeared, I WOULDN'T care what you drove. Sort of like how I don't care if you smoke (as long as I'm not FORCED to inhale it...like at my job/school, in public I can always cross the street to the other side if I like).

It sounds like this is another where-do-you-draw-the-line thing, and obviously I draw it in a different place than you. You've stated your position, and I've stated mine. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like either of us have convinced the other, but hopefully we've given ourselves something to think about.

/bows

You can always justify oppression. Someday someone will come along a make a law against something you enjoy, then we'll be having a different conversation. Until then, it's me me me and that guy can't do that.

 

[Doggiedog]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Uh, hi. Civic driver checking in.

Drive whatever you want, just keep it away from the space I call the "Personal Zone" - you know, the region where my back bumper starts infringing on your cellphone call.

You can chuckle if you ever see me stuck in a ditch - but in return, I get to mock you pouring a month's worth of gas into your boat and not getting a full tank.

And last but not least, when you're doing 10mph down a street when there's four inches of accumulation because you didn't bother to learn how to drive in the winter, pull the fvck over and let the Canuck pass, okay?

- M4H

You aren't a real Canuck!

A real Canuck would end the sentence "ay".

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Fingers

It does cost to drive a smaller car. Costs you safety, convienience of carrying any large load you need to, Comfort for larger individuals. I could keep going but everybody's definition of practicle is different for every individuals wants/needs.

size != safety..I could talk about rollovers if you like, and there's the ever-prevalent example of how indy cars have such a good safety record considering the situations they're exposed to.

Convenience...well, that's one of those times when you have to think about how many times you need to carry large loads. I argue that if you can fit a Kenmore refrigerator into a Honda CRX, most people overestimate their need for a "large" car to carry stuff.

Comfort-really varies from car to car. There are some small cars which are VERY cramped for large individuals. There are some small cars which seem to have more space than some SUVs, for the same individuals.

The problem is that the pro-SUV camp seems to think the opposition sees NO need for SUVs, whereas the anti-SUV camp seems to think the opposition never uses their SUVs for their true purpose. I don't think either side would agree with these stereotypes.

Now just how much effort did it take to get it into your crx?

As far as comfort is concerned. No small car or even larger sedan can prode a normal seating position. It's one thing that I hate most about smaller cars. Feels like you are sitting on the floor with your legs out in front.

You can talk about rollovers all you want but more people die from other types of collisions and anybody who has ever taken physics knows whoever weighs more is gonna win.

I did a bunch of calculations once but basically if a F350 head ons a civic, both going 60MPH, the civic hits a "virtual" 90 mph brick wall while the ford hit a 30 mph "virtual" brick wall. I know which one I'd rather be in.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Zebo
It sounds like this is another where-do-you-draw-the-line thing, and obviously I draw it in a different place than you. You've stated your position, and I've stated mine. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like either of us have convinced the other, but hopefully we've given ourselves something to think about.

/bows

You can always justify oppression. Someday someone will come along a make a law against something you enjoy, then we'll be having a different conversation. Until then, it's me me me and that guy can't do that.[/quote]

So are laws against smoking in public buildings, laws against jaywalking, laws against underaged drinking, and laws against driving uninsured considered "oppression"?

Believe me, there are PLENTY of laws out there that affect me.

And once again, I AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE SUVS ILLEGAL. I just want people to consider other options before they voluntarily purchase a vehicle.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: EndGame
Your selfishness becomes noteworthy when it affects others with no thought of consequence. As a general consuming american, your selfishness has been noteworthy for sometime.

Ahh, so what I'm thinking while I consume sets me apart. Hmmmm


I would think it would be more likely that since we are all selfish then it is only just that we spew forth righteous indignation at anyone we feel is more selfish then ourselves.

What fun! I can play this game.

 

[Fingers]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Fingers

It does cost to drive a smaller car. Costs you safety, convienience of carrying any large load you need to, Comfort for larger individuals. I could keep going but everybody's definition of practicle is different for every individuals wants/needs.

size != safety..I could talk about rollovers if you like, and there's the ever-prevalent example of how indy cars have such a good safety record considering the situations they're exposed to.

Convenience...well, that's one of those times when you have to think about how many times you need to carry large loads. I argue that if you can fit a Kenmore refrigerator into a Honda CRX, most people overestimate their need for a "large" car to carry stuff.

Comfort-really varies from car to car. There are some small cars which are VERY cramped for large individuals. There are some small cars which seem to have more space than some SUVs, for the same individuals.

The problem is that the pro-SUV camp seems to think the opposition sees NO need for SUVs, whereas the anti-SUV camp seems to think the opposition never uses their SUVs for their true purpose. I don't think either side would agree with these stereotypes.

Now just how much effort did it take to get it into your crx?

As far as comfort is concerned. No small car or even larger sedan can prode a normal seating position. It's one thing that I hate most about smaller cars. Feels like you are sitting on the floor with your legs out in front.

You can talk about rollovers all you want but more people die from other types of collisions and anybody who has ever taken physics knows whoever weighs more is gonna win.

I did a bunch of calculations once but basically if a F350 head ons a civic, both going 60MPH, the civic hits a "virtual" 90 mph brick wall while the ford hit a 30 mph "virtual" brick wall. I know which one I'd rather be in.

Gotta consider the monster truck effect. The impact won't be flush and the civic will wind up under the truck most likely if it stock, add in bigger tires and maybe a lift, even more in favor of truck.

 

[Fingers]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Zebo
It sounds like this is another where-do-you-draw-the-line thing, and obviously I draw it in a different place than you. You've stated your position, and I've stated mine. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like either of us have convinced the other, but hopefully we've given ourselves something to think about.

/bows

You can always justify oppression. Someday someone will come along a make a law against something you enjoy, then we'll be having a different conversation. Until then, it's me me me and that guy can't do that.

So are laws against smoking in public buildings, laws against jaywalking, laws against underaged drinking, and laws against driving uninsured considered "oppression"?

Believe me, there are PLENTY of laws out there that affect me.

And once again, I AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE SUVS ILLEGAL. I just want people to consider other options before they voluntarily purchase a vehicle.[/quote]


I hear you perfectly clear. Not really trying to start anything with what I'm saying. Personally I'm just having a friendly debate with no hard feelings and completely understand your point. Just had to get that out before anybody assumes anything about my oppinions. Which I could care less about all at the same time.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Doggiedog

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Uh, hi. Civic driver checking in.

Drive whatever you want, just keep it away from the space I call the "Personal Zone" - you know, the region where my back bumper starts infringing on your cellphone call.

You can chuckle if you ever see me stuck in a ditch - but in return, I get to mock you pouring a month's worth of gas into your boat and not getting a full tank.

And last but not least, when you're doing 10mph down a street when there's four inches of accumulation because you didn't bother to learn how to drive in the winter, pull the fvck over and let the Canuck pass, okay?

- M4H

You aren't a real Canuck!

A real Canuck would end the sentence "ay".

eh?

- M4H

 

[Doggiedog]

Too late

 

[EndGame]

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: EndGame
Your selfishness becomes noteworthy when it affects others with no thought of consequence. As a general consuming american, your selfishness has been noteworthy for sometime.

Ahh, so what I'm thinking while I consume sets me apart. Hmmmm


I would think it would be more likely that since we are all selfish then it is only just that we spew forth righteous indignation at anyone we feel is more selfish then ourselves.

What fun! I can play this game.

Um, sorry, but that's not my quote!

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Doggiedog
Too late

No, I spelled it correctly, Yank.

- M4H

 

[Aharami]

:shocked: SUV bashers and SUV lovers are two tight-knit groups. hey if you like driving your SUV, thats cool with me. me personally, i like the feel of smaller cars. i can go 80+ around curvy highways in my little GTI and feel completely in control of my car. I was in a friend's explorer and he was navigating the same highway at 80+....I was scared shitless..thought the car's gonna flip over anytime. not my cup of tea

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Doggiedog
Where are all the complaints about luxury sedans and sports cars?

They are wasteful too not to mention all too common.

The difference is most sedans and sports cars still get better mileage than the average SUV and they aren't difficult to see around and don't blow into your door head high in an accident.

I live in FL and I'm an SUV hater. Why? Because 75% (my guestimate) of the time you see an SUV on the road it's got a single occupant in it. Keep in mind I'm talking about Florida which is very flat and never gets snow so it's not like you need excessive ground clearance or 4WD for traction. And it's sure not for going offroad because there's no way they would take a H2 or Escalade into the woods. Most of the big flashy SUV's are for status and nothing more.

The argument that SUV's have more room is usually empty unless you're talking about the bus-sized SUV's. A large sedan or regular sized minivan will easily hold 5 adults and luggage comfortably and a standard SUV isn't going to do any better than that. One friend I know has a Toyota Sequia (sp?) and another has a Nissan Pathfinder. The SUV has *much* less room than the minivan and is difficult to get in and out of regardless of the seat you're riding in because the doors are so short. The van rides like a big car and has sliding doors on both sides making it easy to get in and out. The kicker? The SUV owner is a couple with 2 kids and despite the fact that a minivan would've made more sense she refused to look at any of them because they don't look "cool" like an SUV. To me that thinking is just stupid but all too common.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: EndGame

Originally posted by: Squisher

Originally posted by: EndGame
Your selfishness becomes noteworthy when it affects others with no thought of consequence. As a general consuming american, your selfishness has been noteworthy for sometime.

Ahh, so what I'm thinking while I consume sets me apart. Hmmmm


I would think it would be more likely that since we are all selfish then it is only just that we spew forth righteous indignation at anyone we feel is more selfish then ourselves.

What fun! I can play this game.

Um, sorry, but that's not my quote!

I apologize

 

[MichaelD]

I'll add a very interesting twist to this conversation.

Before my gas-guzzling SUV, I owned THREE Hondas. One Accord and TWO Civics; a 86 CRX Si and a 93 Civic Si hatch.

I loved my Civics, especially the hatch. 30MPG on a bad day, too light to sink in the sand down at Corpus and it fit my 6'1" frame with room to spare.

I bought the Accord b/c of my son; I needed a back seat w/easy access to get him in and out of the car.

Soon after, he was climbing into the backseat himself; I could've stuck w/the Civic. :roll:

That said, I got tired of the roads in San Antonio. I bent two rims on the Accord on potholes. I'd gotten stuck in the sand at the beach. When I moved, I couldn't move anything myself, etc.

I wanted a truck...an SUV.

I bought the Trooper in 2001 and aside from the mileage, there's not a damn thing I miss about my Hondas.

Hondas are very reliable cars and if I needed a CAR I'd buy another one in a heartbeat.

Thought I'd add fuel to the fire here.

Not all SUV/Truck drivers are ignorant pricks that have never owned a car.

Some of us are just pricks to begin with. :evil:

I still will charge Prius and Insight and Miata owners for a pull, though.