Actress Heather Lind accuses former President George H.W. Bush of sexual assault

[s0me0nesmind1]

He seems to old and senile... And in general just out of touch with reality.

Probably just comes from an old time where things like that were acceptable... but I mean, comparing this to "sexual assault" the likes of Harvey is just ridiculous. He didn't do this behind closed doors, or in a private room... this happened LITERALLY at a photo shoot with photographers and shit present... as well as his wife.

But I don't know, burn him alive at the stakes, fine him $1,000, whatever makes you feel better.

 

[interchange]

There are all kinds of ethical boundaries in rendering a medical opinion for his behavior, but more than that it would be based on speculation and scant and probably unreliable evidence. So I'll try to frame my responses with that context and make them non-specific to GHWB.

1. Dementing illnesses may absolutely lower inhibitions, and a person's consciousness of their actions or logical understanding of their wrongness does not discount this finding
2. Dopamine agonists used to treat parkinsonism very commonly cause impulsivity and hypersexuality
3. As multiple women have clearly expressed their discomfort in repeated situations which were well-known to GHWB's cohorts, I cannot imagine any way to excuse the fact that the behavior was repeated. Someone in GHWB's camp could have prevented and/or warned about this behavior. The lack of alarm and accountability for this kind of sexual misconduct is a serious societal problem not isolated to GHWB and independent of any medical factors.

 

[FIVR]

Lots of excuses for a man who sexually abuses women. I don't care if he's 95, he should be in prison paying for his crimes.


If he is "demented" or whatever (has a medical need to sexually abuse people) then all the more reason to imprison him in some facility where he can get proper care. That's what prisons are for: rehabilitation of former presidents.

 

[zinfamous]

Report it at the time or STFU and move on. DO report something that's legitimate instead of a social manipulation but anyone who waits years is just a rabid attention whore, unless we're talking about a child that lacked the mental facilities to deal with it like an adult can.

There is never a case where a sexual advance is appropriate in the workplace, advance meaning an initiation not where a sexual relationship already exists. That's what asking someone out on a date is for, and when either party has a senior position over the other, only a fool would not wait for the junior party to initiate a sexual advance.

The gray area then is what is an appropriate vs inappropriate escalation. Anyone who wants to avoid that gray area shouldn't go on the date.

the times, they are a-changing.

What I think is going on is the clash between the old-world order of "boys will just be boys!" so--grab that ass and assume the poor lady will just ignore it, like she should when she knows her place--and the new world order of assuming respect, and not being a dickbag.

This "you should have reported it when it happened!" is remnants of that old world order collapsing, I think. Now that it is being reported, you have to deal with the old world chaff that never was reported, but now everyone is feeling empowered to do so. The point here is to acknowledge that this has always been a problem, buried under the assumption of "well, that's just how things are!" and that isn't going to fly anymore.

Don't worry, it's rarely pretty when progress happens.

 

[HomerJS]

He seems to old and senile... And in general just out of touch with reality.

Probably just comes from an old time where things like that were acceptable... but I mean, comparing this to "sexual assault" the likes of Harvey is just ridiculous. He didn't do this behind closed doors, or in a private room... this happened LITERALLY at a photo shoot with photographers and shit present... as well as his wife.

But I don't know, burn him alive at the stakes, fine him $1,000, whatever makes you feel better.

You must not have watched the clip a few posts ago when he was younger and definitely not senile.

Nobody in this thread has compared Bush to Harvey or Donald except Heather Lind because its how she felt.

Let's just go the record that's its ok for men to grab women's asses if that makes you feel better.

 

[pauldun170]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41771986

 

[pauldun170]

FYI: It has not been ok for men to grab random women for a VERY long time. Wasn't ok back when Bush was young man. Wasn't back when his dad was a young man.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

How is there even a discussion on touching someone's ass without consent? It's not a contextual thing here. You don't lay a hand on someone period. If you grab someones, and particularly if you make jokes in direct reference to it, it's by definition sexual assault. Period. This isn't a gray area. There is no clarification needed of what did or didn't the person do during or after.

 

[DrunkenSano]

He is definitely a relic from a past era where men were allowed to do these things. It's not senility but what was approved of back in the day. These were pretty much perks that successful men in powerful positions enjoyed. It was something they worked towards back then.

FYI: It has not been ok for men to grab random women for a VERY long time. Wasn't ok back when Bush was young man. Wasn't back when his dad was a young man.

You say that but in reality it was different. By law, it wasn't okay but in those circles, it was what happened. Even look at that series Mad Men, parties, sexual harrassment, drinks, affairs. That was very prominent in the business world. If a powerful man wanted to play grabass with a woman, she had no real power to complain, it was a sad and tragic reality back then. She would be ignored at best and ostracized or punished at worst.

 

[zinfamous]

He is definitely a relic from a past era where men were allowed to do these things. It's not senility but what was approved of back in the day. These were pretty much perks that successful men in powerful positions enjoyed. It was something they worked towards back then.



You say that but in reality it was different. By law, it wasn't okay but in those circles, it was what happened. Even look at that series Mad Men, parties, sexual harrassment, drinks, affairs. That was very prominent in the business world. If a powerful man wanted to play grabass with a woman, she had no real power to complain, it was a sad and tragic reality back then. She would be ignored at best and ostracized or punished at worst.

That's the point of pauldun's comment: it was never OK, even though it was accepted within those power structures of the day.

One would think the Christian morality police would have and would be all over this then, and now...but apparently they aren't. I think a major power behind this evangelical movement and why they do not get involved in these issues is that sexual harassment is a major part of their own power structure. Keep women in their place--kinda like them sharia-loving Islamists that they claim to hate.

 

[pauldun170]

He is definitely a relic from a past era where men were allowed to do these things. It's not senility but what was approved of back in the day. These were pretty much perks that successful men in powerful positions enjoyed. It was something they worked towards back then.



You say that but in reality it was different. By law, it wasn't okay but in those circles, it was what happened. Even look at that series Mad Men, parties, sexual harrassment, drinks, affairs. That was very prominent in the business world. If a powerful man wanted to play grabass with a woman, she had no real power to complain, it was a sad and tragic reality back then. She would be ignored at best and ostracized or punished at worst.

It was not OK.
Silence or under reporting did not make it ok.
Men got slapped. Men got knocked the F' out. Some men ended up dead.
I worked with "old school" guys.
Plenty of stories about husband and boyfriends showing up at the workplace to beat the crap out of people.
Did women get touched innapropriately? Yes. Did men get away with it? Sometimes. In no way did that make it ok.

Go back 100 years and grab a strangers ass.
When you have to bank on that woman being alone and not having companions around then that says it all.

 

[fleshconsumed]

People keep dismissing this as behavior from an old era, a relic of the past. And I keep thinking of all the sexual behavior of US presidents of the past. FDR, Kennedy, GHWB, Clinton, Trump... I think it's time to accept that people of power will often do unethical things because they can, presidents included. Same thing with Weinstein, Roger Ailes, and O'Reilly. They're all man of power so they use it for gratification. And as such, I don't think this behavior is going to go away as we move further along 21st century.

 

[pauldun170]

People keep dismissing this as behavior from an old era, a relic of the past. And I keep thinking of all the sexual behavior of US presidents of the past. FDR, Kennedy, GHWB, Clinton, Trump... I think it's time to accept that people of power will often do unethical things because they can, presidents included. Same thing with Weinstein, Roger Ailes, and O'Reilly. They're all man of power so they use it for gratification. And as such, I don't think this behavior is going to go away as we move further along 21st century.

It's not going away anytime soon. This kinda of thing exists in all segments of society, from those living in poverty to social situation to the upper echelons of society. Its not just about "men in positions of power"

I think it's time to accept that people of power will often do unethical things

Wording is important here and I'm going to call you out a little on yours. (note: this is only about this statement. Not anything else)
It's never time to accept that people in power will do unethical things.

It should always be challenged in any way possible. It should always be called out and action taken.
Position in society should be rejected as criteria when determining standards of conduct.

 

[fleshconsumed]

It's not going away anytime soon. This kinda of thing exists in all segments of society, from those living in poverty to social situation to the upper echelons of society. Its not just about "men in positions of power"


Wording is important here and I'm going to call you out a little on yours. (note: this is only about this statement. Not anything else)
It's never time to accept that people in power will do unethical things.

It should always be challenged in any way possible. It should always be called out and action taken.
Position in society should be rejected as criteria when determining standards of conduct.

Point taken.

We shouldn't accept it, I phrased it poorly, but what I wanted to say is that it's a sad fact of life and we shouldn't be surprised that it happens. There will always be situations like these when there is great disparity in power between two people. And there is no greater disparity of power when you're the president of the USA or a CEO of a large company.

 

[Starbuck1975]

How is there even a discussion on touching someone's ass without consent? It's not a contextual thing here. You don't lay a hand on someone period. If you grab someones, and particularly if you make jokes in direct reference to it, it's by definition sexual assault. Period. This isn't a gray area. There is no clarification needed of what did or didn't the person do during or after.

It absolutely is a contextual thing. President Bush is in a wheelchair. During a photo op, his arm, by default, is at ass level.

Now, is he trying to make light of an awkward situation using an inappropriate joke, or is he taking advantage of the situation to intentionally grab women by the ass?

Given that there photo ops are in public with many people present, I am willing to guess it is the former.

One scenario is assault, the other requires an apology and we all move on with life.

 

[alien42]

It absolutely is a contextual thing. President Bush is in a wheelchair. During a photo op, his arm, by default, is at ass level.

Now, is he trying to make light of an awkward situation using an inappropriate joke, or is he taking advantage of the situation to intentionally grab women by the ass?

Given that there photo ops are in public with many people present, I am willing to guess it is the former.

One scenario is assault, the other requires an apology and we all move on with life.

edgy

 

[Starbuck1975]

edgy

Lame

 

[alien42]

Lame

yes you are.

 

[Starbuck1975]

yes you are.

I prefer flimsy. You can call me flimsy.

 

[skull]

He is definitely a relic from a past era where men were allowed to do these things. It's not senility but what was approved of back in the day. These were pretty much perks that successful men in powerful positions enjoyed. It was something they worked towards back then.



You say that but in reality it was different. By law, it wasn't okay but in those circles, it was what happened. Even look at that series Mad Men, parties, sexual harrassment, drinks, affairs. That was very prominent in the business world. If a powerful man wanted to play grabass with a woman, she had no real power to complain, it was a sad and tragic reality back then. She would be ignored at best and ostracized or punished at worst.

Why do you guys all assume its high class people taking advantage? You ever hung out with low class people?

 

[MomentsofSanity]

It absolutely is a contextual thing. President Bush is in a wheelchair. During a photo op, his arm, by default, is at ass level.

Now, is he trying to make light of an awkward situation using an inappropriate joke, or is he taking advantage of the situation to intentionally grab women by the ass?

Given that there photo ops are in public with many people present, I am willing to guess it is the former.

One scenario is assault, the other requires an apology and we all move on with life.

Everything you just said is meaningless. Keep your damn hand in your lap. And his spokesperson said he "pats women on the behind occasionally and makes a joke about David Cop-A-Feel". That's deliberate and its assault.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Everything you just said is meaningless. Keep your damn hand in your lap. And his spokesperson said he "pats women on the behind occasionally and makes a joke about David Cop-A-Feel". That's deliberate and its assault.

Yes he should keep his hands in his damn lap. Not disagreeing with you on that point.

But, you have to also recognize that this entire thread illustrates my point. No one is going to bring charges and no prosecutor in his right mind would pursue this. So much righteous anger and indignation over David Cop-A-Feel, yet the silence is deafening in terms of threads or discussion on the predatory sexual assault and discrimination clearly evident in Hollywood, Sacramento, Silicon Valley, Wall Street and other places where people in this forum more likely have an opportunity to meaningfully influence this problem.

 

[uclaLabrat]

It's complete hearsay so take it for what it's worth, but you can Google the story and apparently heather Lind claims he put his hand up her skirt, it's not like he just grabbed her ass (not like that is somehow excusable either, wheelchair or no)

 

[Starbuck1975]

I actually take back my argument. When the story first broke, I believed the initial apologies that framed it as accidental contact followed by an inappropriate joke. I didn't see the subsequent stories because in all honesty there was no more front page news today on it.

If he intentionally grabbed these women by the ass and then made a joke about it, that is assault.

Disappointing, as I admire George Bush and was giving him a tremendous benefit of the doubt.

 

[mindless1]

This "you should have reported it when it happened!" is remnants of that old world order collapsing, I think.

Nonsense. If you oppose reporting things within a reasonable amount of time then don't bother telling us, make an effort to change the statute of limitations. I for one, think the statute of limitations on crimes are already ridiculously long.

If you've been wronged it doesn't take years to figure that out. If you keep quiet for your own personal gain at the expense of other potential victims then you're an asshole.

The statute of limitations for something as trivial as "I wasn't attracted to him but he flirted more than I wanted him to", should be a few weeks at most.

Suppose someone grabs your ass. Unless you are a hateful vindictive monster, that didn't harm you any more than brushing your ass against a guard rail.

What this is about instead is an abuse of power. That is not tolerable, but that abuse of power has ended once that person no longer has authority over you. That abuse should end immediately but years later? Senseless vindictive BS at that point, from people whose careers are disappointing so they feel it will benefit them to be a victim to gain sympathy.

Do not wait to report abuse. If it's important it shouldn't wait.