Adolf Hitler

[jaydee]

Finally, I know your just going to argue back about the 3rd and 4th terms and how the 22nd amendment had not yet been made so I pulled this link (written to congress by former presidential candidate Bob Dole)to show why.

http://www.senate.gov/~rpc/rva/1042/104279.htm

Here's a quote from that that gets to the point as it is a lenthy Synopsis.



<< For the President, who served full-time, term limits were not applied because of the expectation that Presidents would voluntarily eschew pursuing more than two terms. President Washington, who presided over the constitutional convention and was thus intimately involved in the Constitution's formulation, well understood the intent of the Framers. After serving two terms, many people pressed him to pursue a third but he refused. The Framers created a system of checks and balances in order to limit the actions of government. They were particularly concerned with limiting the actions of the executive branch, after having suffered through the abuses of power by England's monarch. The Framers expected, and wanted, a succession of citizens to serve as President. They did not want anyone to serve as a de facto monarch. President Washington knew and agreed with this sentiment when he refused to run for President for a third term. Every President until President Franklin Roosevelt respected President Washington's voluntary term-limit policy. President Roosevelt broke that policy with his election to four terms, during which he concentrated enormous power in the presidency. Congress reacted by passing the 22d amendment limiting the number of terms that anyone may serve as President to two, and the American people quickly ratified that amendment. >>



Allright I backed up my stance on this matter I would appreciate if you would do the same as you seem to know everything.

 

[sandorski]

Dabs: I stand corrected on those points.

 

[Hyper99]

red dawn that just your opinion and it not factual as you say...
perhap you need to respect other opinion then to just splat drop your on top of it and make my look like it was rubbish.
what do you know eh? where you actually there at the time of world war II? the american themselve did not want to be involved in the war period! they rather sit back and do nothing because it not their problem... unless the german attack the U.S. of course
I pretty much take everything being said here as opinion then FACT
nobody really know!
the history in the book itself was not being told the way it should
should I say censored in away to make american look good?!
last, I have no clue what you talking about sound like you got that out of your ass too sorry man you don't know anymore then any of us do,really.
Like we are today.... ah let just end it here cause nobody listening to a word I am saying!

 

[chipbgt]

Hyper99 you really know how to make friends dont you?



<< ah let just end it here cause nobody listening to a word I am saying! >>



Dont worry, I think you will be getting a lot more of it now after this.

 

[reitz]

<< Reitz: I am unaware of any document that shows the U.S. can only enter a war if they are attacked first which you seem to be hinting. >>

jaydee, I know reading comprehension can be tough, but don't give up. You completely misread my posts, but keep trying; eventually you'll catch on. Good try, though!

Where did I ask for that? I only challenged EmperorNero and afronappy to show me evidence that American leaders knew about the genocide before getting involved in the fight against Germany.

 

[Daedalus]

Historical perspectives (facts?) don't seem to mix well with philosphical ideas in this case. Getting wedgies all over the place.

 

[jaydee]

Ok reitz here is what you said:



<< Point me towards a document that shows the United States was able to enter WWII before we did. >>



Now, I'm not a rocket scientist but, I am pretty sure most people would agree that your trying to say the U.S. could not enter the war at any point until we did. Ya follow that so far? You are saying the U.S. could not enter the war at any point until we did. OK? The point we entered the war (WWII) was when Pearl Harbor was bombed. If you need me to back up my Pearl Harbor statement I'm sure I can find one, but trust me on this one: Pearl Harbor was bombed; furthermore, we declared war on Japan and entered WWII. So lets review here: You say we couldn?t enter the war until we did. We entered the war when the Japanese bombed us. So, I think a valid conclusion to your statement (remember I?m not a rocket scientist) would be: we couldn?t enter the war until we were first provoked (or bombed). Otherwise, if we could enter the war without being provoked (bombed) we could have entered the war at anytime. I hate it other people in this thread make you write down their level.

 

[reitz]

Ooops, I posted so many times in this thread that I forgot about that one

I still was not alluding to anything stating the United States could not enter the war until attacked. The point was that our country simply was not able to. At the beginning of World War II, the American military was only a fraction of what it would grow to be. We did not have the manpower or resources to fight a full-scale war. The United States did not even become a world power until after the war. The American government did all it could in the early days of the war, and entered only after we were ready.

We did not declare war because Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor was simply an excellent opportunity to do it. Read up on it a little; there is quite a bit of evidence that the armed forces actually knew the attack was coming, and allowed it to happen for that reason.

You are sort of correct in saying the New Deal did not pull us out of the depression. By itself, it probably could not have, but it was what allowed such a quick build-up of the American military. Without the New Deal, the US might not have been as much of a power in the war (and without that, the depressions might not have ended, and so on...you see where I'm going with this).

Ummm...sorry for the rude response to the last one

 

[jaydee]

reitz: I knew there had to be some miscommunication there, I knew we didn't see eye to eye but I couldn't figure out how you thought I misread your quotes. No hard feelings.



<< We did not declare war because Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor was simply an excellent opportunity to do it. Read up on it a little; there is quite a bit of evidence that the armed forces actually knew the attack was coming, and allowed it to happen for that reason. >>



My thoughts exaclty, but I thought you were implying otherwise. I've looked up evidence on the Pearl Harbor 'surprise' and I have very strong feelings that we did know about it. However it is vitually impossible to prove this without a full confession from the government (which would also be impossible for the gov't to admit they were wrong). The way I see it though, this only proves my point on FDR not being a good president. I think he was totally against war at first, realized he was wrong and covered it up by allowing our outdated ships getting blown out of the water (with our aircraft carriers meanwhile conveniently out of dangers way). With all his neutrality acts and public speeches he made, it would have been impossible to declare war... unless we had a darn good reason (suprise Pearl Harbor!). But he set himself up for it.



<< You are sort of correct in saying the New Deal did not pull us out of the depression. By itself, it probably could not have, but it was what allowed such a quick build-up of the American military. Without the New Deal, the US might not have been as much of a power in the war (and without that, the depressions might not have ended, and so on...you see where I'm going with this). >>



While this mabey true (I honostly don't know about 'New Deal' building up our armed forces) we in actuallity held the ultimate trump card: Manhatten Project. What makes me shudder is the 'what if' Germany developed the first nuclear bomb instead of us (they were the first to split the atom but we found the way to make it massivly destructive to mankind). They were frantically trying to make it work but thank God they didn't. Some people think the U.S. was irresponsible for dropping 2 on Japan, How many do you think the Nazi's could have dropped?

As for the U.S. not being a power until after WWII: I thought we were quite a power before, particularly in WWI. Why was Germany so concerned about us in the first world war (Zimmerman telegram)?

 

[BlackFalcon]

First, I should say that I've read most of this thread but not all so if this has been stated, sorry. Its just gotten too long.
There is one thing thing about America's involvement with Hitler that hasn't been stated yet. The U.S. didn't do anything (much) until Pearl Harbor for one reason or another. O.K. The bad thing is what happened after the holocaust was known. The US (and Canada I think) made one of its own. Don't get me wrong, there wan't the killing and all. The Japanese Americans were forcibly relocated for &quot;their own protection&quot; into prision camps that resembled some of the concentration camps. There was a book about this some guys in my Lit. class read but for the life of me I can't remember its title.
Stalin killed millions in the gulags (<-spelling?).
The Catholic Church did some terrible things in the Spanish Inquision; check out Poe's The Pit and The Pendulum. Its fictional but does bring home the kind of things that did happen.
The Crusades
The Trail of Tears
The whole Aztec/Mayan/Spainish Conquistador thing
Ruwanda
Many more
Genocide and mass exterminations are nothing new. They've been happening for centuries if not meleniums.
The main reason Hitler got more recognition for his &quot;Final Solution&quot; is that it was one of the largest and first to occur in a world rapidly approaching the rapid transfer of information. Technology also had evolved to the point that many people could be killed quickly and by few murderers.
One thing that people should also know about the Holocaust is that Jews weren't the only ones to be killed. Other that Jews the Jehovah's Witnesses in Germany were taken to the camps early in the ordeal. Homosexuals, &quot;Political prisioners,&quot; and many from other minorities were also brutally slaughtered.
And here is a point few have thought of I bet. The US and Russia had a policy of mutual distruction in the Cold War. (I don't think that still exists but I might be wrong.) The plan was that if Nukes started flying, to kill as many as possible even after the country's annihlation. The Nuclear fallout, winter, etc. of a global Nuclear War would have probally resulted in the extermination of most if not ALL life on earth other than stuff like roaches. Nice concept, huh?
What scares me now is not a conventional war or even a nuclear war. The possiblity of nuclear war is really quite low now days. What scares me is the power that biowarfare brings (and chemical warfare to a lesser degree). I've been in the CDC in Atlanta and done a lot of research on this stuff. The bugs that have (and can be) made are horrible. For heavens sake, my High School AP Biology class could make E-Coli bacteria that was immune to antibiotics in a single day. Imagine what a well funded modern lab could do. Imagine a virus that spreads like wildfire. Now imagine that for the first month or two it doesn't show any symptoms. The victims wouldn't know they are infected so they keep spreading the disease. Now imagine that the victims suddenly start having heart attacks, strokes, or any number of ther things. The potential for death is huge. Now imagine that these are relatively easily made by a biotechnolgy scientist. Imagine if this fell into the wrong hands.
Thats what scares me.
The human body is a pretty frail thing. We have enough to worry about in our lives without violence. Lets get this world civilized a bit, shall we?
P.S. Sorry about any miss spellings or grammer mistakes that have krept in here.
[edit]Forgot to close that last bold statement.[/edit]

 

[reitz]

jaydee, most of what I've read about Roosevelt said that he was in favor of war all along, but it was the Congress that stuck to isolationism. I can't for the life of me find it now, but a few days ago I was reading an except from a former Cabinet officials memoirs (don't remember what I did a seach on to find it). In it he talks about how Roosevelt was preparing for war in 1937, partially as a way of energizing the economy. If I can find it again, I'll post the link.

 

[Nater21]

In response to What BlackFalcon said about technology and it's new (in 1940s) ability to kill mass amounts of people.

This is very true. There have been many genocide attempts throughout history, but never before had there been the technology to make genocide feasible.

I don't know if anyone has been to a Nazi Concentration camp, but I had the &quot;opportunity???&quot; to visit Dachau which is just outside of Munchen, Germany. It is a truly dismal place. I suppose it didn't help that it was wet and cold and snowing when I went there, but these places are terribly depressing. When you walk through the &quot;shower&quot; rooms, stare into the ovens, and see the tall smokestacks, it makes you shudder and want to cry.

Now I can see how Hitler could be called a brilliant manipulator, or con artist. But that is all. He preyed on peoples weaknesses in order to rise to power, and he abused his power like no one in history. The Holocaust IMO is the worst tragedy the world has ever seen. Hitler's crimes against humanity far outweigh any benefit Germany may have received from WWII.

I am just trying to get this thread back on topic. However the WWII discussion is actually very intriguing. I would like to say that if you don't know anything about WWII (and it's pretty obvious to the rest of us who you are) Keep your mouth shut and stop pretending to be an expert. I don't want to mention any names (hyper) but please stop filling this thread with your ignorence!!

That is all. Continue the debate!!

 

[Nater21]

I have one more little thing to add. Hyper is complaining about the US sitting back and doing nothing, yet I bet everytime the US sends troops somewhere today to stop small uprisings and civil wars, hyper along with the rest of the world start whining about the US playing &quot;Big Brother&quot; and &quot;Policing&quot; the world. So what the hell do you want us to do?

It's not easy being the most powerful country in the world. Everyone resents you and at the same time can't survive without you.

Interesting don't you think??

 

[jaydee]

You see reitz, your really confusing me now. Dabanshee posted previously:



<< His 'New Deal' pulled the US out of the depression by its boot straps &amp; help to prepare the US for war. >>



and:



<< The only way he was able to get voted in for a 3rd term was by agreeing to all the isolationist demands of congress >>



In which you said:



<< Excellent post, DABANSHEE. >>



immediatly following.

So I assumed that you agreed with him. However you are now saying:



<< You are sort of correct in saying the New Deal did not pull us out of the depression. By itself, it probably could not have >>



and



<< Roosevelt said that he was in favor of war all along, but it was the Congress that stuck to isolationism. >>



IT'S HARD TO COUNTER SOMEONE WHEN THEY KEEP CHANGING THEIR MIND!

 

[ChazJuarez]

Hyper99, what has your beloved china ever done? I realize that that country was a victim of japanese aggression, but it must have &quot;known&quot; about hitler and what he was doing. Did they have their own version of the lend/lease act?

Oh I didn't think so.

 

[Hyper99]

NO all of you are dead wrong I am considered an American as well
having as much right as a Citizen would so watch your step!
people like red dawn is just one of those major pain in a** type I got to deal with or just plainly ignore those type jerk. they are just plain ignorant pathetic and lowly scumbag. talk too proud of himself. notice how he criticize me at first from out of the blue.
this really pisses me off seeing the average american folk are racism toward me so shut up about china etc!!!

 

[Hyper99]

red dawn you need to watch what you saying about other.
I mean you shown yourself to be a major pain period. you are the meanest person I met, cruel and heartless... that sum you all up

 

[chipbgt]

hyper99,

Maybe if you would respect other peoples opinions on the threads you started, and not have a fit when someone shows your facts are wrong, you wouldn't be considered such a nitwit.

 

[reitz]

<< But the most important thing he did was advance 'new deal' resources to help the US prepare for war under the guise of employement programs. So huge aircraft factories were built in areas of high unemployement using federal aid money &amp; federal loans. Plus under utilised autoplants were converted to tank manufacturing (an example is the Buick plant that made M3 &amp; M5 light tanks with twin Caddilac engines &amp; automatic torque converter drives, which was very popular with crews because of its ease of use &amp; drivability). Plus we mustn't forget the army act back in 1940, where over a period of less than a year he turned the US which had one of the smallerst armies in the world (it then ranked 30th), for a developed nation, to having the 2ND biggest army in the world (other than the USSR), &amp; all while the US was still nuetral. >>



jaydee, that was the most important part of DABANSHEE's post that I was referring to.

I guess I haven't been clear on what I'm trying to say. I have not changed my mind; I just didn't not state my earlier opinions to you clearly enough.

Yes, you can say that the New Deal was not what pulled us out of the depression. You can also say WWII did not pull us out of the depression.

The New Deal helped many people at the time, but its most important affect was that it allowed Roosevelt to increase the size of our armed forces under the guise of economic aid. Without the help of those programs, we would not have been powerful enough to do much in the war.

Had we not fully entered WWII, those programs could not have further expanded, there would not have been the boom in jobs related to the war effort, and consequently we would not have had the economic upturn at that time that ended the depression. I do not believe it is correct to give total credit to either factor in restoring the American economy. Neither the New Deal, nor WWII could have accomplished that on its own.

Do you follow what I'm saying now?

BTW, I often miss a sentence or two in DABANSHEE's posts. His paragraphs are too long for my attention span

 

[reitz]

One last thing: I don't see how

<< The only way he was able to get voted in for a 3rd term was by agreeing to all the isolationist demands of congress >>

and

<< Roosevelt said that he was in favor of war all along, but it was the Congress that stuck to isolationism. >>

are contradictory.

 

[cfredc]

to ChazJuarez, the reason y china didnt have crap like the lend-lease act was because they were in a middle of a civil war between the communist and nationalist... they had no &quot;real&quot; govn. and no money to finance the british who were partially responsible in starting the civil war in china.... in retospect i would think the last thing china wanted to do was to help england after it did so many horrible things in china.... so STFU unless you know your chinese histroy before you answer a question....

 

[jaydee]

They ARE contradictary in that Roosevelt said he WANTED to be in the war the whole time, meanwhile he was AGREEING to isolationist requests.

 

[reitz]

I still don't see what you're getting at...

Didn't your mother ever teach you that you can't always have what you want?

 

[ChazJuarez]

hey cfredc, blow me, pip-squeak.

The comments were directed to hyper99, you pinko supporting, freedom hating commie.

If you notice thoughout hyper99's threads, there appears to be a very real &quot;dislike&quot; towards America and her foreign policies. I just thought I'd give it back to him/she/it a little.

China still is suck anyway!

 

[cfredc]

hey, screw you.... i didnt say that i agreed with hyper99's opinions... but you were way off hand saying that china should have helped out more in WWII... and fsuk you for saying that china sucks... its not like america is any better.... anyway, if you are mexican (latino, etc) china is a hell lot better than mexico.... get off you uppity notion that america is the only and will be the only superpower in the world and does no wrong.... there are other countries in the future (such as china) that will rise above the snotty bastards who call themselves americans