Advice on a UPS purchase

[eddietandy]

For peace of mind, I feel like I need a UPS for my new build to do an orderly shutdown when the power blips out. I don't really have $200 budgeted for a refurb APC Smart UPS 1500 like everyone seems to recommend.

My build is in my signature, so would an APC Back-UPS RS 900VA 540W do the trick for what I need? I can get one new for $75. As best I can figure, I'm pulling below 400 watts.

My PSU is active PFC and I read where you might not want to use a UPS with simulated sine wave. I just don't want to buy this, then suffer any power issues during normal use (overloading, lower quality power, etc).

 

[MarkGinger]

For peace of mind, I feel like I need a UPS for my new build to do an orderly shutdown when the power blips out. I don't really have $200 budgeted for a refurb APC Smart UPS 1500 like everyone seems to recommend.

My build is in my signature, so would an APC Back-UPS RS 900VA 540W do the trick for what I need? I can get one new for $75. As best I can figure, I'm pulling below 400 watts.

My PSU is active PFC and I read where you might not want to use a UPS with simulated sine wave. I just don't want to buy this, then suffer any power issues during normal use (overloading, lower quality power, etc).

If you buy the Back-UPS RS 900VA you're going to have exactly the problems that you describe. You need a Smart-UPS if you want proper protection.


Do you have a serial port on your machine?

 

[Blain]

The CyberPower CP1350AVRLCD isn't a bad deal for $132 shipped.
I use the 1500AVR version on my HTPC, DVR & 42" LCD.

 

[weovpac]

If you don't mind buying refurbished, check out: http://www.upsforless.com/

 

[eddietandy]

Thanks for the tips. I guess I had good reason to be hesitant on the RS 900VA. No serial port on my rig.

That 1000VA Smart UPS on ups4less looks like it would fit the bill well enough. The Cyberpower unit seems to be simulated sine wave also. I suppose I don't know what tradeoff is worse: protection from simulated sine wave, or unprotected from pure wall outlet power? :\

 

[alaricljs]

I have an APC Back-UPS RS 1000 and 2 Cyberpower PP800SW (true sinewave)... Through the same abuses only 1 computer has had issues, the one on the APC. The power supply died.

The abuses: 1 of the 2 power lines to my house ripped out of the transformer. Since I didn't understand what exactly was happening half the house intermittently received power and the other half had power full time. Turns out that the intermittent power was the good side running through my well pump and into the dead side, very dirty power. Several other brownouts and total outages have also happened.

I'm glad I spent the $180 each on the PP800SW's.

 

[MarkGinger]

Thanks for the tips. I guess I had good reason to be hesitant on the RS 900VA. No serial port on my rig.

That 1000VA Smart UPS on ups4less looks like it would fit the bill well enough. The Cyberpower unit seems to be simulated sine wave also. I suppose I don't know what tradeoff is worse: protection from simulated sine wave, or unprotected from pure wall outlet power? :\

The SUA1000 or the SUA1500 would fit the bill perfectly. They output an actual sine wave, offer avr boost/drop, surge protection and power filtering. You can't go wrong with buying a data center quality UPS.

Save yourself the headache, if you have a machine that needs a sine wave unit, don't mess around with the simulated ones. The UPSs that output a simulated sine wave aren't industrial grade UPSs, they can't compete.

Have you considered how much run time you're looking to get? Are you just using the UPS for power filtration and surge protection or do you actually need a few minutes to shut down?

 

[eddietandy]

The SUA1000 or the SUA1500 would fit the bill perfectly. They output an actual sine wave, offer avr boost/drop, surge protection and power filtering. You can't go wrong with buying a data center quality UPS.

Save yourself the headache, if you have a machine that needs a sine wave unit, don't mess around with the simulated ones. The UPSs that output a simulated sine wave aren't industrial grade UPSs, they can't compete.

Have you considered how much run time you're looking to get? Are you just using the UPS for power filtration and surge protection or do you actually need a few minutes to shut down?

Honestly, power filtration and surge protection are secondary concerns. I just want to have the ability to shut down cleanly when a power outage occurs, so really only need a few minutes max. But I don't want to sacrifice power quality during normal runtime for that protection (if that makes sense). I have pretty clean power at my house, but invariably there will be a 20 minute outage once every couple of months (and usually on days with perfect weather). I thought about disabling write cache on my drives to minimize data corruption, but I don't think it's worth doing.

 

[SparkyJJO]

I'm running an older APC back-ups 725VA unit. It is a stepped approximation sine wave, not pure, and I have a Corsair HX620 power supply with active PFC. It buzzes a little bit when on battery but that's it. It works perfectly fine otherwise. Runs for a few minutes on battery, then when it gets low it shuts down the PC automatically. Works great.

The issue with active PFC units and stepped approximation UPSes is on a case by case basis. Some designs have problems, others don't. My Corsair is fine with it.

 

[billyb0b]

If you buy the Back-UPS RS 900VA you're going to have exactly the problems that you describe. You need a Smart-UPS if you want proper protection.


Do you have a serial port on your machine?

an APC back-UPS will suite him fine. APC provides software that can manage a shutdown nicely if power is lost. As long as the unit has USB connectivity it will work fine.

APC makes a ton of back-UPS with USB connectivity and provided software (it's called APC PowerChute) that range from $50 - $200, with several in between

i've been running an APC XS-1500 for 7 years now with no problems, had to replace the battery pack twice (normal maintenance) and that is it. it's saved my machine from brown outs and full blown black outs. i also have a smaller APC UPS that's strictly on my NAS device with the NAS controlling the UPS via USB

APC is quality

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

CyberPower 1350 VA 810 Watts 8 Outlets

 

[dualsmp]

I'm running an older APC back-ups 725VA unit. It is a stepped approximation sine wave, not pure, and I have a Corsair HX620 power supply with active PFC. It buzzes a little bit when on battery but that's it. It works perfectly fine otherwise. Runs for a few minutes on battery, then when it gets low it shuts down the PC automatically. Works great.

The issue with active PFC units and stepped approximation UPSes is on a case by case basis. Some designs have problems, others don't. My Corsair is fine with it.

Same here. Have a Corsair VX450 and it buzzes a little during battery backup on an APC 550VA, but otherwise it works without issue. Pure sine is nice but I think it's hyped a bit too much (like it's a must have). Sometimes with certain PSU's there are problems with stepped sine, but most of the time stepped sine works fine.

 

[Meghan54]

I've been running APC Back-UPS units with various computers.....currently have a Back-UPS 1200 with a Corsair 850HX connected to it. During the "ice storm" we had a few weeks ago, the power was lost and the computer just kept on running without problems. Had plenty of time to power off and no strange noises were heard from either the UPS or the power supply.

The whole simulated sine wave problem is horribly overblown. After having various Back-UPS's of varying power outputs (550, 900, 1200 among others) and very different power supplies connected to them (including an Antec TruePower 750, Corsair 620HX, 850HX, Ultra X3 1000, BFG EX1000, Enhance GNP5150 among others), I've yet to experience or see a single power supply have difficulty with the Back-UPS units. Luck of the draw maybe, but so many different computers with so many different power supplies....you'd figure one would act up...but they didn't and haven't.

 

[eddietandy]

I'm glad I posted the question now. Doesn't seem like a clear consensus on simulated sine wave UPS's with active PFC PSUs. Gonna put that credit card back in the wallet... Wondering now if the difference between simulated and pure is more of a benchmark difference than a real world difference.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Stepped sine does put a heavier load on the PSU circuits than pure sine. But for 10-15 minutes of runtime it isn't a big deal. It may be a problem for an extended duration, except pretty much all the ones that are capable of running on battery that long are pure sine output anyway.

 

[eddietandy]

Stepped sine does put a heavier load on the PSU circuits than pure sine. But for 10-15 minutes of runtime it isn't a big deal. It may be a problem for an extended duration, except pretty much all the ones that are capable of running on battery that long are pure sine output anyway.

OK I'm a little bit confused, so does the UPS only output stepped sine when there is an outage, but pure sine the rest of the time while power is active? I was under the impression that with a Back-UPS type unit, I would be running on stepped sine all the time. I admit to being a newb on what happens in the UPS bitbucket.

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

OP UPS protects your PC against the following

Voltage surges and spikes
Voltage sags
Total power failure
Frequency differences

Dont know what sine wave stuff theyre on about

 

[clicq]

OK I'm a little bit confused, so does the UPS only output stepped sine when there is an outage, but pure sine the rest of the time while power is active? I was under the impression that with a Back-UPS type unit, I would be running on stepped sine all the time. I admit to being a newb on what happens in the UPS bitbucket.

Most of the cheaper UPSs, like the Back-UPS, tend to be line interactive. This type of UPS only switches to battery during a power loss or when the voltage exceeds what the transformer can compensate for, and the "stepped sine" only occurs when the UPS is on battery.

 

[Texashiker]

I suggest you stay away from APC - if you ever have a claim for damaged equipment, its unlikely you will get our money.

I had a brand new APC surge protector, plugged a work station into it, and as soon as the PC was turned on, smoke started coming from the machine. This was a brand new machine that was barely 1 month old.

Put the surge protector on a second machine, and lines started going across the monitor.

Contacted APC and they had me send in the surge protector for testing, which I did. A couple of weeks later they told me that they could not find anything wrong with the surge protector and my claim was denied. We went back and forth with emails - they refused to supply a phone number - and they just flat out refused to pay for the damages the surge protector caused. The power supply and motherboard on the work station were burnt up and had to be replaced.

It sure is funny how APC said it was not the surge protector, but when tested on 2 different computers, at 2 different locations in the office, both systems had problems.

APC is quality

APC works fine until you have a claim for damaged equipment.

 

[Puffnstuff]

I would shop around to find the best price on the unit you want to buy. I've never had to file a claim with apc but their units have saved my systems from everything from surges to lighting strikes. I had a tripp lite once and well I never bought another one and went back to apc.

 

[eddietandy]

Most of the cheaper UPSs, like the Back-UPS, tend to be line interactive. This type of UPS only switches to battery during a power loss or when the voltage exceeds what the transformer can compensate for, and the "stepped sine" only occurs when the UPS is on battery.

Perfect, this is exactly what I needed to know. "Line interactive" is the feature I should have been reading about. This sounds more in line with what I need: the ability to shut my machine down in a pinch, which takes all of 30 seconds.

Here's another peculiar aspect I read about: supposedly active PFC can pull its entire load potential in an instant, when a line interactive UPS switches to battery. That would make a huge difference in sizing the right UPS. While the RS 900VA could handle the normal load just fine, 540W is definitely not enough for the 750W all at once.

Here's the link on the APC site about it:
http://nam-en.apc.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8883/kw/pfc

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

I suggest you stay away from APC - if you ever have a claim for damaged equipment, its unlikely you will get our money.

I had a brand new APC surge protector, plugged a work station into it, and as soon as the PC was turned on, smoke started coming from the machine. This was a brand new machine that was barely 1 month old.

Put the surge protector on a second machine, and lines started going across the monitor.

Contacted APC and they had me send in the surge protector for testing, which I did. A couple of weeks later they told me that they could not find anything wrong with the surge protector and my claim was denied. We went back and forth with emails - they refused to supply a phone number - and they just flat out refused to pay for the damages the surge protector caused. The power supply and motherboard on the work station were burnt up and had to be replaced.

It sure is funny how APC said it was not the surge protector, but when tested on 2 different computers, at 2 different locations in the office, both systems had problems.




APC works fine until you have a claim for damaged equipment.

Well that happens when you cut corners with electrical equipment. Buying 20-50usd stuff to protect 3 to 4k equipment.

OP if your gear are that valuable to you and you worked hard to buy it then spending 200-300 on a UPS should be nothing. Just think of the value that 200-300usd thing is protecting

 

[eddietandy]

Well that happens when you cut corners with electrical equipment. Buying 20-50usd stuff to protect 3 to 4k equipment.

OP if your gear are that valuable to you and you worked hard to buy it then spending 200-300 on a UPS should be nothing. Just think of the value that 200-300usd thing is protecting

Understand, but it helps to know what you're buying and especially when you could spend way more than is necessary to get the job done. Hopefully this discussion will help others, because seems to be a lot of room for confusion.

 

[clicq]

Perfect, this is exactly what I needed to know. "Line interactive" is the feature I should have been reading about. This sounds more in line with what I need: the ability to shut my machine down in a pinch, which takes all of 30 seconds.

Here's another peculiar aspect I read about: supposedly active PFC can pull its entire load potential in an instant, when a line interactive UPS switches to battery. That would make a huge difference in sizing the right UPS. While the RS 900VA could handle the normal load just fine, 540W is definitely not enough for the 750W all at once.

Here's the link on the APC site about it:
http://nam-en.apc.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8883/kw/pfc

I can't offer any definitive answers, only anecdotes but... I haven't had a problem with active PFC power supplies overloading UPSs. I've had a 500W Antec Earthwatts, probably pulling only about 150W from the wall + an LCD pulling about 50W, on a 625VA UPS. I've also had a core i7 system, pulling about 380W fully loaded (antec bp550 plus) from the wall, on an 850 VA UPS with no problems (granted the runtime isn't that great, but it's enough to shut down the computer).

I can understand the power supply pulling more power than the output power that's being requested from it, but I don't understand why it would pull more than it's rated output power irregardless of load... (i.e. if you have a 600W power supply, but it's only being requested to supply 200W, why would it pull 750W and not 250W?) Then again, I'm not a power supply engineer .

Granted, the real "true sine wave" UPSes tend to be higher quality in general, so take than into consideration. You should also check the replacement costs of batteries for whatever UPS you decide to buy, since some of the cheaper UPSes have very expensive batteries that aren't available as generics.

 

[SparkyJJO]

I don't know if I just have a freak one or if it is normal, but I'm still on the original battery in my APC 725VA unit that is nearly 5 years old now, and it still works. Probably have lost a couple minutes of runtime but I'll still get almost 10 min out of it which is enough.